The Instigator
ChristianDebaterBrad
Pro (for)
Losing
14 Points
The Contender
sadolite
Con (against)
Winning
19 Points

Fender makes the best guitars

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/11/2011 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 6,356 times Debate No: 17470
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (32)
Votes (8)

 

ChristianDebaterBrad

Pro

Pro is defending that Fender makes the best guitars because of their superior: hardware, honorable and respectable history (ex. various guitar idols who have used Fenders), and innovative design.

Con is claiming that Fender does not make the best guitars because some of kind of guitar manufacturer is better in these qualities: hardware, honorable and respectable history (ex. various guitar idols who have used their guitars), and innovative design.

First round is for acceptance ONLY

Second round is for opening arguments ONLY

Third round is for stating contentions/rebuttals ONLY

Fourth round is for your argument summary and concluding thoughts ONLY

This should be a fun debate and I'm looking forward to having fun with it.
sadolite

Con

I accept the debate
Debate Round No. 1
ChristianDebaterBrad

Pro

Iconic Fender� instruments such as the Telecaster�, Stratocaster�, Precision Bass� and Jazz Bass� guitars are known worldwide as the instruments that started the rock revolution, and they continue to be highly prized by today's musicians and collectors.

With an illustrious history dating back to 1946, Fender has touched and transformed music worldwide and in nearly every genre: rock ‘n' roll, country and western, jazz, rhythm and blues and many others. Everyone from beginners and hobbyists to the world's most acclaimed artists and performers have used Fender instruments and amps, in the process making the company not only a revered music industry name, but also a cultural icon.

With an illustrious history dating back to 1946, Fender has touched and transformed music worldwide and in nearly every genre: rock ‘n' roll, country and western, jazz, rhythm and blues and many others. Everyone from beginners and hobbyists to the world's most acclaimed artists and performers have used Fender instruments and amps, and legendary Fender instruments such as the Telecaster� and Stratocaster� guitars and Precision� and Jazz� bass guitars are universally acclaimed as design classics.

In the 1940s, southern California inventor Leo Fender realized that he could improve on the amplified hollow-body instruments of the day by using an innovative and rather simple solid-body electric guitar design. Further, he realized that he could streamline the process of building them.

In 1951 he introduced a prototype solid-body instrument that would eventually be called the Telecaster� guitar. The Tele�, as it was often called then and still is today, was the first solid-body Spanish-style electric guitar to be commercially mass-produced.

That same year, Fender introduced a revolutionary new invention—the Precision Bass guitar. It was played like a guitar and had frets so that it could be played with "precision," and it could be amplified, thus liberating bassists from unwieldy and increasingly difficult-to-hear acoustic basses.

These two historic instruments laid the foundation for a new kind of group and a revolution in popular music—what we know today as the modern rock combo. As opposed to the "big bands" of the era, electric Fender instruments made it possible for smaller groups of musicians to get together and be heard.

The Stratocaster first appeared in 1954, incorporating many design innovations based on feedback from professional musicians, Fender staff and Leo Fender himself. Its third single-coil pickup offered more tonal possibilities, its sleekly contoured body made it more comfortable, and its double cutaway design made access to upper registers much easier.

Most important, however, was the addition of the new Fender vibrato (or "tremolo") bridge, an innovation originally intended to let guitarists bend strings, thus achieving the pedal steel-like sound so popular among country music artists of the day.

Nobody could have foreseen then how the Stratocaster would go on to revolutionize popular music. Essentially unchanged since its 1954 debut, it is the most popular and influential electric guitar ever, and players at all levels and in all genres continue to rely on its sound, playability and versatility to this day.

Leo Fender himself remained an immensely creative force over the next decade, introducing many classic instrument and amplifier designs, including the Jazz Bass� guitar, the Jaguar� and Jazzmaster� guitars and the Twin Reverb� amplifier.

Because of poor health, Leo Fender sold the company to CBS in 1965. Fender Musical Instruments experienced tremendous growth over the next 20 years, but a lack of commitment and real understanding of music and musicians by CBS gradually became apparent.

To "re-invent" Fender, CBS recruited new management in 1981. William Schultz became company president, supported by associate William Mendello. Their 5-year business plan was based on increasing Fender's marketplace presence with dramatic quality improvement and greater commitment to research and development.

When CBS shed its non-broadcast media businesses in the 1980s, a group of employees and investors led by Schultz bought Fender from CBS in 1985. The sale put the Fender name back into the hands of a small group of dedicated people committed to creating the world's best guitars and amplifiers.

The new Fender Musical Instruments Corporation (FMIC) had to start from scratch—there were no buildings or machinery included in the sale. Among other things, FMIC purchased the name, intellectual property and some leftover parts. Supported by a core group of loyal employees, dealers and suppliers (some of whom had been with the company since Leo Fender founded it), Schultz and his colleagues set out to rebuild an American icon.

The new Fender initially imported its guitars from offshore manufacturers with proven ability to produce affordable and viable instruments, but the move toward greater quality control soon led to the establishment in 1985 of Fender's flagship U.S. factory in Corona, Calif. A second modern manufacturing facility opened in 1987 in Ensenada, Mexico.

Also in 1987, the renowned Fender Custom Shop opened at the Corona facility, creating dream instruments for professional guitarists and guitar enthusiasts. Fender had always recognized the importance of an open-door policy for professional musicians, accommodating their requests for specific features on an individual basis. The Fender Custom Shop has since become known worldwide and industry-wide as the pinnacle of craftsmanship and sheer instrumental artistry.

FMIC moved its corporate headquarters from Corona to Scottsdale, Ariz., in 1991. From there, Fender coordinates its administration, marketing, advertising, sales and export operations in the United States and its international satellite facilities in England, France, Germany, Japan, Mexico, the Netherlands, Spain and Sweden.

http://www.fender.com...
___
Noted Fender musicians:

JIMI HENDRIX BABY!!! (aka The Mac Chief Daddy)
TENURE, 1966-1970 James Marshall "Jimi" Hendrix (1942-1970) is universally hailed as the greatest electric guitarist in the history of rock and one of the most influential musicians of the 20th century. In the annals of rock history-and especially in Fender history-he towers above all others as an artist whose life and work were as phenomenal as the era which he helped to define and personify. Innovative, enigmatic and astoundingly talented, Hendrix pioneered an explosive new role for the electric guitar in the latter 1960s over the course of a meteoric career that was as musically adventurous as it was all too brief. Indeed, one can only speculate on the even greater musical heights he would have achieved had he lived beyond the age of 27. With bands the Jimi Hendrix Experience and Band of Gypsys, he recorded groundbreaking hit singles and albums, including Are You Experienced and Axis: Bold as Love (1967), Electric Ladyland (1968) and Band of Gypsys (1970), all of which are as acclaimed and influential today as when first released. A mesmerizing performer, Hendrix also turned in unforgettable concert moments, including his literally fiery performance at the 1967 Monterey Pop Festival and his immortal appearance at the 1969 Woodstock Music & Art Fair. With his Stratocaster guitar slung upside down and his artful and inventive use of distortion, feedback, and other effects, Jimi Hendrix bequeathed to the world an artistic legacy so powerful that he has transcended mere stardom to become a worldwide cultural phenomenon that endures to this day.

Others:
George Fullerton
James Jamerson
The Beach Boys
James Burton
David Gilmour (Pink Floyd)
Geddy Lee (Rush)
John Frusciante (Red Hot Chili Peppers)
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Buddy Guy
Kurt Cobain (Nirvana)
Eric Clapton
Ritchie Blackmore
Waylon Jennings
George Harrison (Beatles)
Keith Richards
Bruce Springsteen
SO MANY OTHERS
sadolite

Con

Popularity and marketing does not equate to the "best guitar". The fact that famous people play a specific brand of guitar also does not equate to the "best guitar". Although a guitar maker may innovate some new accessory or feature this also does not equate to the "best guitar."

Sound and and intonation (The ability to truly tune) make for the best guitar.

Hand made vs. factory produced, each has their good points and bad points.

Fender is a mass produced factory made guitar, not even their high end guitars are hand made. All fender guitars start out the same way, high end fenders are just glorified versions of it's stock models. They are made with the same wood and the same manufacturing process. The only difference between a stock fender and a high end fender is a flashy paint job and flashy hardware.

Factory mass produced guitar makers are not concerned with sound but rather consistency in parts fitting together so as to produce as many guitars as cheaply as they can with the least amount of knowledge necessary from it's employees in the least amount of time.

Factory produced guitars can very greatly in their sound and their ability to be truly tuned (Intonation) Factory produced guitars must be bent and tweaked after they are delivered to a retailer. It is unlikely you would be happy with the way a mass produced guitar played or sounded if you picked one off the rack in a factory ready for shipment. In essence fender sends their guitars out without the intonation or action adjusted. It is set to what the guy at the factory likes who does this process. This is not to say that this is bad or good as 99% of guitar buyers would not know the difference and would not even know how to choose a preference in the "action" of the strings in relation to the fret board. When you change the "action" you change the "intonation"

No discretion is given to the variances in density but only the moister content to the wood used to make mass produced guitars. Two identicalle thickness guitar tops can differ by as much as l00% in density, 200% in longitudinal stiffness and 300% in lateral stiffness. Brace wood also varies as much and more. Density is a huge driving factor in the sound a guitar makes. Also no discretion is given with regard to density or stiffness of neck pieces. This is especially important with acoustic guitars. Mass produced guitars vary widely in their sound and intonation from one guitar to the next. Depending on the day of the week each Fender guitar is made, you could get a complete lemon

Polyurethane, catalyzed and ultraviolet-cured finishes are used on factory produced guitars and are unrepairable. In order to repair a scratch on such a finish it must be completely striped and repainted decimating what little resale value it would have. On that note, mass produced guitars that are not connected to someone famous IE: an autographed guitar, have little to no resale value compared to their purchase price especially if it's scratched.

Most, if not all prominent successful guitar players play a specific brand of guitar because they are being paid by the company who makes them to play them. It is most unlikely their favorite guitar or guitar of choice.

In this video you can see there is virtually no attention to detail in the construction of a fender gutar all that is of consern is whether or not the pieces will fit together by the measurements that make. The people operating the machines haven't a clue to what goes into making a good guitar. They are machine operators they could be making popsicle sticks as far as they are concerned.

Hand made guitars (Luthier)

The Luthier has his or her reputation on the line with each and every guitar they make. Pains taking effort and measurement is used to select the wood used to make their guitars. All pieces that are used to make a hand made guitar are chosen "because of their density and stiffness" and matched together to produce the most stable and constant platform to get the best possible sound and intonation. Miss matching densities and stiffness produces substandard sound and intonation.

The lutier also shaves the wood in specific places to give specific sound characteristics qualities preferred by the customer. This is something that you will never get from a factory mass produced guitar maker.

The luthier chooses hardware based on what the guitar is being designed for. Expensive hardware does not equal better sound. Hardware for a hand made guitar is chosen for it's effect on sound not flashiness or appearance as is the case with mass produced guitars. Fender will sell you anything if it means upping the price.

The finish on most hand made guitars is labor intensive using polishes and lacquers. Theses types of finishes are repairable without having to strip the entire surface should a scratch occur. This preserves the resale value as the guitar is still considered "all original" And it goes without saying hand made guitars hold their resale value or increase in value regardless of who owned it.

The person who buys a hand made guitar has the maker as his tech support. The luthier has a more vested interest in your investment and will bend over backwards to make you happy as his reputation as a guitar maker is on the line. See what kind of service you get from mister nose ring at the local music store where you bought your Fender at.

In my opinion there is no best guitar but rather the needs of the person playing it. Factory guitars are better for beginners, they are cheap they are more durable and come in a myriad of designs to choose from. But they are over engineered and this affects sound quality. Factory guitars are over engineered on purpose to avoid costly warranty repairs and replacement.

Hand made guitars are for experienced guitar players who know how to tell good sound from bad sound. Hand made guitars are more delicate and precise and not as durable as a factory guitar. This is why they sound better and have better intonation.

Ask any experienced or prominent guitar player what they look for first and foremost in a guitar and they will tell you sound and intonation are the most important features in any guitar.

http://www.esomogyi.com...
Debate Round No. 2
ChristianDebaterBrad

Pro

Let's refresh ourselves on the resolution: "Fender makes the best guitars." Now, what terms did we agree to evaluate the resolution on?

"hardware, honorable and respectable history (ex. various guitar idols who have used...[our guitar of choice for this debate]), and innovative design.

Contention 1:

You said: "Popularity and marketing does not equate to the "best guitar". The fact that famous people play a specific brand of guitar also does not equate to the "best guitar". Although a guitar maker may innovate some new accessory or feature this also does not equate to the "best guitar."


Popularity and marketing, in reference to the terms outlined that you agreed to debate, is definitely a clear indication to a respectable and honorable history (which we agreed is aspect of evaluating the best guitar). I think it is only logical to say that because if Fender had not had a respectable and honorable history they wouldn't be popular or fared well with marketing.

"Although a guitar maker may innovate some new accessory or feature this also does not equate to the "best guitar."

Why did you take this debate if now you are going against (as well as not even addressing my evidences) the things we outlined in the first round?

The tremelo system Fender designed set a precedent and was such an innovation it revolutionized guitars from there on. (This is just one innovation/design from my opening argument I consider of great importance)

Also, you said:

"In my opinion there is no best guitar but rather the needs of the person playing it. Factory guitars are better for beginners, they are cheap they are more durable and come in a myriad of designs to choose from. But they are over engineered and this affects sound quality. Factory guitars are over engineered on purpose to avoid costly warranty repairs and replacement."

I cannot take this serious in the least bit... Especially after the list I gave on honored and VERY respected guitarists who have chose Fender of all guitars as their main guitar choice. Honestly, people like Jimi Hendrix, Stevie Ray Vaughan, and George Harrison cannot be dismissed as beginners. Anyone can say any guitar is better for beginners, here watch... Gibsons are better for begginners.

You said: "Factory guitars are over engineered on purpose to avoid costly warranty repairs and replacement."

And they avoid them because there is no need (in a generalized sense, there are outlyers within any scenario like this, even your perfect luthier) for warranty repairs and replacement because the "over engineeed" genius has led to superb design in their guitars - they get it right the first time.

Also, you say they are "over engineered" (which can be a good thing, I would argue. Fender has over engineered their products to get them to the fine guitars they are) while also saying they are generic and processed. Sure, they have figured out how to mass produce them, but you don't think they have put thought into their factories for creating their world renowned instruments? Cheap?! Are you kidding me? Let's review the "Eric Johnson Stratocaster Maple"

First off this thing costs about $2600, for my pocket book that's definitely not cheap.

Anyways, specs:

Body
Body: Alder
Body Shape: Stratocaster®
Body Finish:

* (0117702803, 0117702806, 0117702809, 0117702801)
Nitrocellulose Lacquer

Neck
Neck Shape: Soft "V" Shape
Number of Frets: 21
Fret Size: Medium Jumbo
Position Inlays: Black Dot Position Inlays
Fretboard Radius: 12" Radius (305 mm)
Fretboard: Maple
Neck Material: 1-Piece Quartersawn Maple
Neck Finish: Nitrocellulose Lacquer
Nut Width: 1.650" (42 mm)
Scale Length: 25.5" (64.8 cm)
Neck Plate: Custom 4 Bolt Neckplate
Truss Rod Nut: Original Vintage Style

Electronics
Pickup Configuration: S/S/S
Bridge Pickup: Specially Voiced Eric Johnson Single-Coil Pickup with Countersunk Mounting Screws
Middle Pickup: Specially Voiced Eric Johnson Single-Coil Pickup with Countersunk Mounting Screws
Neck Pickup: Specially Voiced Eric Johnson Single-Coil Pickup with Countersunk Mounting Screws
Pickup Switching: 5-Position Blade: Position 1. Bridge Pickup, Position 2. Bridge and Middle Pickup, Position 3. Middle Pickup, Position 4. Middle and Neck Pickup, Position 5. Neck Pickup
Controls: Master Volume, Tone 1. (Neck Pickup), Tone 2. (Bridge Pickup)

Hardware
Hardware: Nickel/Chrome
Bridge: American Vintage Synchronized Tremolo
Bridge Cover/Tailpiece: Includes Chrome Bridge Cover
Tuning Machines: Staggered Vintage Style Tuning Machines
String Nut: Synthetic Bone
Switch Tip: Parchment Switch Tip
Tremolo Arm/Handle: American Vintage Tremolo Arm

Tools
Saddle Height Adjustment Wrench: .050" Hex (Allen) Wrench
Miscellaneous

Strings: Fender® USA Super 250R, NPS, (.010-.046 Gauges)
Unique Features: 12" Radius Fingerboard, Countersunk Holes in Pickguard for Pickup Mounting Screws, Height Staggered Vintage Style Tuners which Eliminate the Need for String Trees, Vintage Tremolo with Silver Painted Block and '57 Style String Recess (No Paint Between Base Plate and Block), 5 Tremolo Springs and No Back Tremolo Cover Plate

Accessories
Case/Gig Bag: Deluxe Blonde Hardshell Case with Black Ends (Black Interior)
Pickguard: 1-Ply Parchment, (8 Hole)
Included Accessories: Deluxe Blonde Hardshell Case with Black Ends (Black Interior), Strap, Cable, "Ash Tray" Bridge Cover
Control Knobs: Parchment Plastic

That is top class built, even if it is factory built.

http://www.fender.com...

Contention 2: You said: "Ask any experienced or prominent guitar player what they look for first and foremost in a guitar and they will tell you sound and intonation are the most important features in any guitar."

Fender has so many different models of guitars as well as sets of pickups that the "sound" variations a player is looking for is endless. Once again, look at the list of undeniable guitar geniuses who have used these guitars and the ease they played on them (intonation) as well as how amazing their sound was.

Fenders have been hailed to revolutionize how guitars sound by Jimi Hendrix showcasing what Fender guitars are capable of at Woodstock 1969. , http://www.rollingstone.com...

The Stratocaster and and Telecaster have been copied by almost all or possibly all guitar manufacturers in design and looks because of their superb design and sound.

"The Stratocaster first appeared in 1954, incorporating many design innovations based on feedback from professional musicians, Fender staff and Leo Fender himself. Its third single-coil pickup offered more tonal possibilities, its sleekly contoured body made it more comfortable, and its double cutaway design made access to upper registers much easier.

Most important, however, was the addition of the new Fender vibrato (or "tremolo") bridge, an innovation originally intended to let guitarists bend strings, thus achieving the pedal steel-like sound so popular among country music artists of the day." http://www.fender.com...

It's body shape and strategically placed third coil pickup gave it a new playability the world had never seen in such a way as Fender designed.

Questions/Comments:

You have yet to note any renowned musicians (there are some, but not to the extent to combat Fender's endless loyal community) to use hand made guitars.

You said: "Most, if not all prominent successful guitar players play a specific brand of guitar because they are being paid by the company who makes them to play them. It is most unlikely their favorite guitar or guitar of choice." - Please prove this to be true, getting paid big money does not = why they use it.

Leo Fender was a luthier when designing his groundbreaking "master designs" for Fender. I would argue he is the luthier to ever lived because his designs for the Telecaster and Stratocaster are still being copied today. Why aren't your luthiers being renowned for their amazing guitars?

sadolite

Con

The resolution is quite clear "Fender makes the best Guitars" My opponent can't dictate to me how I prove they are not. Fender Guitars may be popular, Fender may sell alot of guitars, Fender may have alot of pictures and videos of famous people holding and playing their guitars, so what. That has not one iota to do with it's quality. The first Fender guitars were hand made , not anymore. Fender compromised quality for quantity. Mr. Fender sold out his name and reputation. He would no longer be considered a luthier, but rather a mass producer of sub to mid grade guitars for the ignorant masses.

Over engineering a guitar is the worst possible scenario when constructing a guitar. It is by de facto purposely built incorrectly to serve some other characteristic and thereby compromising sound quality and intonation making it substandard to a guitar built to adhere to the two most important qualities in it's construction, sound and intonation.

Famous people playing Fenders. An audience can not tell the difference from a $25,000 hand crafted guitar made to look like a Fender and a $2000 off the shelf Fender guitar. They are ignorant. Only a skilled musician can tell the difference. Touring musicians use throw away guitars like Fender and Gibson and all of the other popular guitars on the market. Ya a $2600 factory made Fender guitar is a throw away guitar. They are good enough to fool the masses but in no way hold a candle to a hand made guitar in a one on one environment. You could use a guitar sold by Sears for $89.00 that looks like a Fender and people would believe it's some wonderfully built hand made guitar if a famous person is holding it. And if they Autograph it, it could sell for more than Fenders most high end guitar.

$2600.00 dollars for a factory made Fender guitar is well tantamount to the saying "There's one born every minute" It takes an average 8 hours to make a low end Fender guitar to 20 hours to make a high end Fender guitar. Half that time is waiting for paint to dry. Fender might have as little as $75.00 into a guitar it sells for $500.00 retail . A hand made guitar takes 300 to 500 hours to make and range in price from $6000 to well over $100,000.

My opponent is clearly fond of Fender guitars and is wowed by photos of famous people holding Fender guitars but by no stretch of the imagination is Fender the "best guitar", not by a long shot.

In response to who's who and who plays what kind of guitar, I would contend that Paul Reed Smith (PSR) guitars (also mass produced) are used by more musicians than Fender and are far superior in their construction. Her is a list of famous people who use (PRS) guitars.

http://www.prsguitars.com...

A factory tour http://www.prsguitars.com...

The history of PRS http://www.prsguitars.com...

A much smaller operation and more attention to detail and oodles more "hand" craftsmanship.

Fender is not the best guitar made.
Debate Round No. 3
ChristianDebaterBrad

Pro

I'm not dictating you, I'm merely pointing out that your arguments aren't within the scope we deemed withtin the first round (hardware, honorable and respectable history (ex. various guitar idols who have used...[guitar of pro/con choice), and innovative design.)

I'm also just curious as to why you agreed on those terms and then didn't touch on them and went straight to sound and intonation.

___

My opponent has insisted that "Sound and and intonation (The ability to truly tune) make for the best guitar." This clearly is off of scope we first agreed to put our attention too.

Having said that, my oppoent has said that over engineering of a guitar necesarily means the manufacturer must sacrifice quality for quanity. Why MUST that mean sacrifice? It doesn't. Fallacy of Description of Confusing Cause and Effect:

#1 A and B regularly occur together.
#2 Therefore A is the cause of B.

You said:

"Famous people playing Fenders. An audience can not tell the difference from a $25,000 hand crafted guitar made to look like a Fender and a $2000 off the shelf Fender guitar. They are ignorant. Only a skilled musician can tell the difference. Touring musicians use throw away guitars like Fender and Gibson and all of the other popular guitars on the market. Ya a $2600 factory made Fender guitar is a throw away guitar. They are good enough to fool the masses but in no way hold a candle to a hand made guitar in a one on one environment. You could use a guitar sold by Sears for $89.00 that looks like a Fender and people would believe it's some wonderfully built hand made guitar if a famous person is holding it. And if they Autograph it, it could sell for more than Fenders most high end guitar."

And that proves? Nothing. Fallacy of Description of Appeal to Ridicule.

#1 X, which is some form of ridicule is presented (typically directed at the claim).
#2 Therefore claim C is false.

When you agreed from the first round that famed guitarists could be used as evidence of the 'best guitar' don't then label it as not being evidence, thus you have boxed yourself in... You can't say I'm committing a fallacy of appeal to popularity or thesuch like because you have already deemed that logic fine in the first round.

___

I have shown that Fender, especially with the Stratocaster and Telecaster, produced guitar designs that are still copied today by almost every guitar manufacturer. As well as creating the tremelo system (which every known music genre that includes a guitar that I know of), which was such an innovative piece of harware for guitars in general, it redefined music in a new way for generations spanding clear to the present.

I have shown that through Fender's remarkable hardware, honorable and respectable history (ex. various guitar idols who have used their guitars), and innovative design they are the best guitars.
sadolite

Con

Pro has not proven his case. He completely ignores the science behind the building of a superior guitar. He says I should have not accepted the debate unless I was willing to accept his terms. I have proven all of his terms moot. Science doesn't lie, and he made no attempt to disprove my assertions about how a superior quality guitar is built. Other than to say it's a non argument and not part of the debate terms and that mass production doesn't equal reductions in sound and intonation quality.

He said I didn't address hardware quality. I did address it. Slapping hardware on a guitar for a one size fits all setup in preposterous. Listing a litany of hardware part names proves nothing. He said I had to show another guitar with equal name recognition and history. The longevity of a company and name recognition has nothing to do with a scientifically quality built guitar. It has more to do with skilled marketing strategies IE: Paying famous people to play their guitars.

He would have you believe that because some famous person played a Fender that some how translates into a quality built guitar. He would have you believe that because Fender invented a sound effect that translates into a quality guitar. He would have you believe that fancy marketing and popularity translates into a quality built guitar. Pro would have you believe that a custom hand made guitar is inferior to a Fender mass produced guitar. Fender may have good marketing and name recognition but that does not translate into a quality guitar.

Guitars don't write music people do.

Pro denies that mass production does not sacrifice on quality. This is just plain delusional. I proved this conclusively.

Pro asked for names of people who play guitars and the guitars they play. I gave a list that has the most influential people in music today. PSR guitars are hands down superior to Fender guitars and hand built guitars are hands down better than PSR guitars. Even PSR recognizes this fact and they make guitars.

Fender is not the best guitar. It is a mass produced throw away guitar for the masses.

Even with all the conclusive evidence I have given with regard to guitar construction and what makes the best guitar Pro seems to think none of that matters. "Hand made smand made he says" Jimi Hendrix played a Fender, so what. What does that have to to with the science of constructing a superior guitar. Pro lives in denial when it comes to the science of guitar building. Marketing and longevity of a brand name has nothing to do with the science of making a superior guitar. Bolting a sound effect to an already inferior guitar does not make it better than a hand built painstakingly scientifically crafted guitar with out it.

Pro says a $2600 Fender guitar ain't cheap as far as he is concerned. Well maybe that's because he can't afford any better. It's pocket change in the world of hand built guitars. It wouldn't even buy you a set of hand wound hand built pick ups.

I apologize to my opponent and all you other Fender lovers out there for calling a $2600 Fender a throwaway guitar. But facts are facts, they are flung into audiences on a regular bases like I could throw a quarter out the window to a bum.

The readers of this debate can not ignore the scientific facts about what separates great guitars from mass produced guitars for the masses.

Fender is not the best guitar regardless of it's history regardless of who plays them regardless of what hardware is put on it.

Fender is the Toyota Camry of guitars, it's a good guitar but it ain't the best guitar by a long shot. It isn't even the best built mass produced guitar.
Debate Round No. 4
32 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by StevenDixon 4 years ago
StevenDixon
Sorry : ( this video haha
Posted by StevenDixon 4 years ago
StevenDixon
You could have won this debate by simply linking this video
Posted by Nayrb 4 years ago
Nayrb
Fender guitars are acknowledged as not having as high quality a finish as Gibson Les Pauls. As far as a piece of 'equipment,' the Les Paul is better built hardware. However, from a player perspective, the cheaper single coil pick ups with lighter woods and a tremolo offered more variety of tones - go figure?

It is important to note, that the fender has a longer string length than the Les Paul. There is a 'pull' that you work with. As Jeff Beck shared, you have to work harder but you get more personal expression from a Strat. Enough said :)

Which is a better instrument?

I would argue the instrument that offers widest range of expression.

The guitar is a very tactile instrument. We aren't playing the piano/synthesizer we are hands on the strings and the guitar that translates this direct touch is best. Temperamental as they are, the Strat is superior to the more solidly built Les Paul. Perhaps by fluke by design but... Gibson's have their role and place in rock history. Not taking that away. However, the Strat is the Torres of electric guitars - the archetype.
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
I just happened to see this old debate. It was really interesting.

There is no problem cutting and pasting arguments so long as the source is linked. Once the arguments are presented, the debater then owns them and must defend them. If someone said something particularly well, there is no need to paraphrase it. Sometimes quoting can add wait to an argument, for example one might argue for liberty with, "As Thomas Paine once said ..."

People who cut and past often have problems defending what they pasted, but Pro's follow-up in the debate was fine.
Posted by sadolite 5 years ago
sadolite
Opening argument = original thoughts and ideas - cut and paste source as original thoughts and ideas = plagiarism.
Posted by ChristianDebaterBrad 5 years ago
ChristianDebaterBrad
link = citation = not plagiarism.
Posted by sadolite 5 years ago
sadolite
"I didn't plagiarize though, just sayin'."

No I don't know what you are "sayin" Why don't you tell us, the readers, Why it isn't plagerism (In your own words).
Posted by ChristianDebaterBrad 5 years ago
ChristianDebaterBrad
Wow, maybe I should say sorry? I don't really know what to think... Yeah, I will agree that I should have paraphrased it but it sounded good to me as it was originally haha. I didn't plagiarize though, just sayin'.

I didn't claim that as my original work thus the link... If wanted you to think I had written all of that I wouldn't have posted the link.

"I am also the only person who voted for you... I'll be happy to take away a point from conduct for you being a total jerk, if you wish." - I wouldn't oppose that lol. That was a joke haha.
Posted by sadolite 5 years ago
sadolite
I'll be happy to take away a point from conduct for you being a total jerk, if you wish.

Go ahead. Debate.org has got you beat by a long shot. My voting record is arbitrary. I have been involved in so many vote bombing scandals my true record is unknown. The record you see in my profile was arbitrarily set by Debate.org. I have been at the top and bottom of the voting record list 3 times.

I don't come here for acceptance from other debaters. I come here to expose the stupidity and thin skin of college educated people and ruffle the feathers of the politically correct. Also to keep me at the top of my game when discussing politics with political morons. This place is a vast ocean of political morons, especially the ones who are "college" educated.

My work is done here. LOL
Posted by sadolite 5 years ago
sadolite
Correction defend the "indefensible"

"Opening argument" Infers original thoughts and ideas. Posting verbatim text of someone else's words and putting your name on it is plagiarism.

Plagiarism "Close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
ChristianDebaterBradsadoliteTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: countering the retard
Vote Placed by qopel 4 years ago
qopel
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: 1/2 of a good vote
Vote Placed by Chuz-Life 4 years ago
Chuz-Life
ChristianDebaterBradsadoliteTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: I am a guitar player with many guitars to choose from. I have a 40+ year old Guild (Starfire IV) which is the best crafted guitar I've ever held and an American Standard Strat which I have freaken abused... When I want to play, I grab the Strat. I use the guild as a showpiece. So this debate was tough for me and it comes down to what is considered 'best.' The debate must be judged by the parameters set forth in the debate itself. Pro incorporated the history of the product, design and a nod to the 'guitar idols' in his defining of 'best.' Con accepted those parameters (caveats) when he accepted the debate. I Voted for Pro because he stayed true to that original context .
Vote Placed by Wallstreetatheist 4 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro relied on ad populum appeals, which didn't prove the implications true. Con pointed this out, and therefore won the debate.
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: This was a very good debate; I learned a lot about electric guitars. A key issue is what "best" means. The challenge said Fender was best *because* of certain things. That leaves it to Con to say that something else is best because of other things. Con conceded that Fender was once best and that they make the positive innovation claimed, but "makes" is the present tense. Con made the case that Fender is probably not now the best using the standard of highest achievement of the art.
Vote Placed by Crayzman2297 5 years ago
Crayzman2297
ChristianDebaterBradsadoliteTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro's argument was too vague and biased... his points also rarely made sense.
Vote Placed by PartamRuhem 5 years ago
PartamRuhem
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Reasons for voting decision: Con didn't give an adequate reason as to why Fender wasn't the best. Pro didn't do a good job either....both debaters performed outside the line of the resolution in a sense, therefore I give two to pro for he utilized more sources.
Vote Placed by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
ChristianDebaterBradsadoliteTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I voted simply for points. The word "best" is a subjective statement, and therefore is a poor resolution to try to defend. Pro could not win this debate. However, Con did not necessarily refute the argument in a way that merits many points, so I gave him 1:0