The Instigator
Critical_Knowledge
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
Frank_Blascovic
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

Firearm Laws Reduce Firearm Deaths

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Frank_Blascovic
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/5/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,287 times Debate No: 37399
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (2)

 

Critical_Knowledge

Pro

Hello all and greetings to my opponent, thank you for engaging me on this issue.

Premises: 1) Gun ownership and availability are things that reduce firearm deaths. 2) Firearm laws are things that decrease gun ownership and availability. Conclusion: Then firearm laws are things that reduce firearm deaths.

FIREARM OWNERSHIP CORRELATES TO MASS SHOOTINGS
The New York Times and Associated Press compiled a list of the worst mass shootings since 1966 in western democratic countries and America occupies 14 of the 32 slots of the list with a combined 241 lives wasted. The U.S. holds the third through sixth largest body count incidences, and 76% of mass shooting deaths have occurred since 1990, and eight of the fourteen shootings occurred from 1999 to the present. Other multiply qualified members of the NY Times/AP list include Germany, France and Finland, all with two shootings on the list.

The Guardian used data from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime as well as the 2007 Small Arms Survey to rank 178 countries in terms of gun ownership and gun homicide. The U.S. is ranked first in ownership rate with 88.8 guns per 100 people and 60% of US homicides are caused by firearms. Finland ranks fourth with 45.3 guns per 100 people and 19.8% gun caused homicides. France ranks 12th with 31.2 guns/100 people and 9.6% gun homicides. The last list-companion, Germany, ranks 15th with 30.3 guns/100 people and 26.3% gun homicides.

The correlation between rank and gun caused homicides is hardly remarkable, especially when looking at Central American nations which have exceedingly high homicide by gun rates for their relatively low gun ownership rates. However the fact that several higher ranking countries share the majority of the list of worst mass shootings cannot be ignored.
Frank_Blascovic

Con

I accept, and look forward to a lively debate.

"1) Gun ownership and availability are things that reduce firearm deaths. 2) Firearm laws are things that decrease gun ownership and availability. Conclusion: Then firearm laws are things that reduce firearm deaths."

In this statement you say that with less firearms that would mean there are less firearm related deaths. However I looked at the same source that you used and I have reached a far different conclusion.
In the United States there is an estimated 270,000,000 civilian owned firearms, with 9,146 firearm deaths . However in Brazil there is much less civilian owned guns, around 14,840,000. Despite having less guns Brazil clocks in at a whopping 34,678 deaths by firearm. Norway has a measly 1,400,000 civilian owned guns and is the site of the worst mass shooting in modern history, about 80 casualties. This just goes to show that fewer guns does not equal fewer deaths.

Also I would like to request in the future that you add a link to your references, so that either myself or someone voting on the debate doesn't need to search for them.

http://www.nydailynews.com...
http://www.theguardian.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Critical_Knowledge

Pro

Your points are duly noted, sir. I'll be sure to provide links to citations from now on. Let's continue. You miscited one source, it is from the New York Times and the Associated Press, not the New York Daily News.

I already mentioned that Central American countries have much higher rates and do not follow the trend and Brazil, as a northern South American nation, follows suite with this group. It does, however, rank 8th in total civilian firearms.

Norway's lack of civilian owned guns, yet home to the worst mass shooting in modern history does not "go to show that fewer guns equal fewer deaths." I'd like to point out that this data only considers firearm homicides and not other firearm related deaths.

Mass shootings do not equal overall rate of firearm caused deaths. Norway's overall firearm caused deaths are only listed at 2 here meaning average per year, while its rate of homicides by firearm is 8%. Therefore normally, Norway has a much lower rate of homicides than nations such as the US and Brazil, and really is not a good point of comparison.

I reiterate that the US holds 14 of the 32 worst mass shootings since 1966 in western democratic nations, and this is no surprise because the US is number one in all three categories of firearm ownership, as well as being fifth in the yearly average overall number of homicides by firearm.

I will now address a comment left in regard to my argument. The comment was, "Classic error of supposing that correlation proves causation. Malaria deaths are highest where people make the most effort to poison mosquitoes so ..."
One could use the same argument in reverse; firearm laws cause firearm deaths. The problem is that
what is clear is that their is a problem with malaria (firearm deaths) which are only caused by mosquitoes and their larvae (firearms).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------Not my words----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Virginia's one-gun-a-month law, enacted to address gun trafficking, significantly reduced the number of out of state crime guns traced back to Virginia dealers.
"In 12 states where child access prevention laws had been in effect for at least one year, unintentional firearm deaths fell by 23% from 1990-94 among children under age 15.
"Following Maryland's adoption of a ban on "junk guns," firearm homicides dropped by 8.6% in the state"an average of 40 lives saved per year"between 1990 and 1998.

Two recent studies looked at the impact of gun laws more broadly. The first report, released by Mayors Against Illegal Guns (MAIG) in 2008, focused on the relationship between a state's gun laws and the likelihood the state would be a source of guns recovered in out-of-state crimes.

The MAIG report found that states with the highest crime gun export rates"i.e., states that were the top sources of guns recovered in crime across state lines"had the weakest gun laws."-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Citation:
"Stronger Gun Control Laws Will Save Lives." Guns and Crime. Ed. Christine Watkins. Detroit: Greenhaven Press, 2012. At Issue. Rpt. from "Ten Myths About Gun Violence in America." LCAV.org. 2009. Opposing Viewpoints In Context. Web. 8 Sept. 2013.

Do you have any evidence that firearm laws do not reduce firearm deaths?
Frank_Blascovic

Con

Actually that was not misstated that was actually my own source.

"Do you have any evidence that firearm laws do not reduce firearm deaths?"
Yes I do, I found that in Russia (Where there are stricter gun laws) there are 4,000 guns per 100,000 people. The murder rate in 2002 was about 20.52 per 100,000 people. However the same year Finland had 39,000 guns per person, but the murder rate was only at 1.98 per 100,000. Norway has the highest amount of civilian guns in Western Europe at about 31.3 percent, but also has the least amount of gun deaths, at about 1.78 deaths in 100,000. The reason for this is simple, gun laws do not reduce crime because they take guns away that could have been used for protection by well intentioned civilians.

http://www.breitbart.com...

http://www.gunpolicy.org...

http://www.gunpolicy.org...

http://www.gunpolicy.org...
Debate Round No. 2
Critical_Knowledge

Pro

"if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." True by definition, but the amount of outlaws that have them will be significantly reduced. Not to mention no one has even attempted to outlaw guns completely.

Newly manufactured machine guns have been illegal for civilians to own since 1986, and the grandfathered weapons are subject to an array of regulations such as a complete FBI background check for any prospective owner, and a $200 tax every time a weapon changes hands.

Again in Targeting Guns, Kleck writes, four police officers were killed in the line of duty by machine guns from 1983 to 1992. (713 law enforcement officers were killed during that period, 651 with guns.) The four represents 0.6% of the total killed with guns.

In 1980, when Miami's homicide rate was at an all-time high, less than 1% of all homicides involved machine guns. (Miami was supposedly a "machine gun Mecca" and drug trafficking capital of the U.S.) Although there are no national figures to compare to, machine gun deaths were probably lower elsewhere. Kleck cites several examples:
" Of 2,200 guns recovered by Minneapolis police (1987-1989), not one was fully automatic.
" A total of 420 weapons, including 375 guns, were seized during drug warrant executions and arrests by the Metropolitan Area Narcotics Squad (Will and Grundie counties in the Chicago metropolitan area, 1980-1989). None of the guns was a machine gun.
" 16 of 2,359 (0.7%) of the guns seized in the Detroit area (1991-1992) in connection with "the investigation of narcotics trafficking operations" were machine guns.
(http://www.guncite.com......)

1. Across states, more guns = more unintentional firearm deaths
The mortality rate was 7 times higher in the four states with the most guns compared to the four states with the fewest guns.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu...

In 1999, according to the Justice Department, more than 200,000 gun-sale applications were rejected because the buyer was disqualified in some way, overwhelmingly for a felony conviction or indictment. Since the Brady Act went into effect in 1994, such rejections have numbered well over a half-million. The problem is that these criminals were still able to go to a gun show and buy it or a friend to sell it to them or buy it for them. Because all gun sales are not legally required to be tracked, criminals are able to acquire guns with the same ease as a non-criminal citizen who can obtain them legally. I think it
Rosen, Gary. "The gun control controversy: looking at both sides." Current 427 (2000): 10+. Opposing Viewpoints In Context. Web. 13 Sept. 2013.

"A study of persons arrested for a wide range of crimes showed that a higher percentage of arrestees than regular citizens own firearms.
http://www.nij.gov...

The current prison recidivism rate is over 40%. Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were those in prison for possessing, using, or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).
http://www.bjs.gov...

The statistics on defensive gun use are dubious and hard to find. However, I also had trouble finding statistics on how many gun deaths are caused by legally acquired guns vs illegally acquired guns. What is clear is that guns are constantly getting into the hands of people that misuse them and likely kill with them.

Just because people say that guns are used for protection successfully--without any facts to back it up--doesn't mean that they are. Gun laws do not take guns away from "well intentioned civilians" that's a fallacy.
Frank_Blascovic

Con

"if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."
I never once said that in my argument.

You keep throwing out statistics about machine guns however I said nothing about them.

A survey in 1982 of male felons in 1982 showed that:

34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
40% had decided they wouldn't commit a crime because they knew or thought the victim had a gun
69% knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"

"1. Across states, more guns = more unintentional firearm deaths"
It is true there might be less unintentional deaths however if you will look at this chart, it will show that firearms account for maybe 1% of unintentional deaths.
http://www.justfacts.com...

In 1996 Texas's right to carry law came into effect, which allowed concealed carry of firearms, however if you look at this chart it shows that after it was passed the murder rate in Texas was significantly reduced.
http://www.justfacts.com...

Resources
http://www.justfacts.com...#[21]
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by RoyLatham 3 years ago
RoyLatham
Classic error of supposing that correlation proves causation. Malaria deaths are highest where people make the most effort to poison mosquitoes so ...
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by leojm 3 years ago
leojm
Critical_KnowledgeFrank_BlascovicTied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: Con was really convincing in his argument, I also believe he used more sources, and were most reliable. I give Pro conduct, because he had good conduct in this debate. I had the spelling at a tie, because both had somewhat good spelling and grammar.
Vote Placed by NIGHTMARE 3 years ago
NIGHTMARE
Critical_KnowledgeFrank_BlascovicTied
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