The Instigator
Maryland_Kid
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Consummator
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Five point Calvinism is a sound Biblical doctrine and five point Arminianism is not

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/25/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,574 times Debate No: 30677
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

Maryland_Kid

Pro

This debate is about the competing Christian Protestant doctrines on salvation. In order to debate me, you must be a Christian Protestant who believes in all five points of Arminianism. Let's keep an open mind here.

How could an all powerful God give your eternal security and destiny to your own soul? There is no such thing as free will. We make decisions and behave based on own environment, biology, and God.

Let's examine the five points of Calvinism:

1. Total depravity

2. Unconditional Election or Predestination

3. Limited Atonement

4. Irresistible Grace

5. Perseverance of the Saints

Now let's examine Arminianism.

1. Free Will

2. Conditional Election

3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement

4. Grace or the Holy Spirit is Resistible.

5. Falling from Grace or Christian Apostasy

http://www.the-highway.com...

In these following paragraphs I will explain each one.

No man without the aid of the Holy Spirit can make the right decision and do God's will. Even the Armenians believe this. Every good moral action comes from the Holy Spirit working in the person while if you do not have the Holy Spirit working inside you, you do not do good works. See Romans 3:10-12, Romans 14:23, Romans 8:7, 3 John 3:11, and 1 Corinthians 2:14. http://www.gotquestions.org... http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com...

It says in many cases of scripture that we are "predestined." This may be a False Analogy but aren't the Angels (some now Demons) predestined? People don't want to believe that they are chosen by God and some aren't. It's the truth. We are born into God's kingdom because of God, not our choices that God didn't perceive. See Ephesians 1:4-5. http://www.gotquestions.org... http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com...

Now, limited atonement doesn't mean that Jesus's sacrifice wasn't meant for all men but he only saved the people he chose. The people that become saved aren't random people. But what about all those verses that say that God gives salvation freely? The answer is simple, not everyone accepted it. It was unlimited in power but limited in who was chosen to take it. to http://www.gotquestions.org...

Yes, I believe that when God call you to be his child, you can't resist it. God will meet you and mold you. http://www.gotquestions.org...

He says many times that he will finish the work he started in us. This is what bugs me about the Arminians the most. They think God started something but didn't finish it. He doesn't sound like an all powerful God to me. The Arminians say that all those verse I mentioned to support Perseverance of the Saints is that it only happens if a person still chooses to be saved. Well, that sounds like God isn't in control. Notice words like "confident" "will," "no one" and "nothing" in the verses I mention. If a person's eternal salvation is not backed up by a regenerative and permanent change then couldn't someone who made it to Heaven make a mistake and go to hell? Doesn't sound like God to me. http://www.biblegateway.com... http://www.biblegateway.com... http://bible.cc... http://www.gotquestions.org...

What scares people about Calvinism? It makes us sound like robots who are in complete control of God's will. Well, it's true. Free will is a myth because no one can freely choose what he/she says or does. It's part of their personality. Does that mean we shouldn't try and help others do and be better than what they are? No! Whatever happens is in God's plan. No one can escape their destiny. Why would God allow "free will" to interfere with his plans?
Consummator

Con

In this round I won't focus on justifying Arminianism as much as rebutting pro's opening round.

"No man without the aid of the Holy Spirit can make the right decision and do God's will. Even the Armenians believe this." Armenians do not believe that one cannot be right and just in absence of God's will, only Calvinists do (hence the belief of free will of Armenians).

"Every good moral action comes from the Holy Spirit working in the person" This is a completely false assertion backed up by no evidence whatsoever other than the assumption that any and all morality must come from God and that it is 'impossible' for it to not.

"if you do not have the Holy Spirit working inside you, you do not do good works." The holy spirit was only present in the body of Jesus Christ, we do not have holy spirits but instead have a mere mortal's spirit that, according to Arminians, has the right to choose to be holy or unholy.

"It says in many cases of scripture that we are "predestined." This may be a False Analogy but aren't the Angels (some now Demons) predestined?" Either God is an imbecile or a sadistic conniver who made people, and his own angel Lucifer, evil and then punished them for acting evil under his own control. This defeats the purpose of having a hell or of even trying to avoid doing sin, if God forces us to do it against our will then why bother avoiding hell? It's already predetermined.

"Yes, I believe that when God call you to be his child, you can't resist it. God will meet you and mold you." Explain Stalin, an atheist dictator who killed millions, Richard Dawkins, a heavily atheist philosopher, Ricky Gervais, an extremely atheist comedian and Christopher Hitchens, an extremist anti theist seeking to abolish all religion on Earth (until his unfortunate death) applying to this assertion.

"If a person's eternal salvation is not backed up by a regenerative and permanent change then couldn't someone who made it to Heaven make a mistake and go to hell? Doesn't sound like God to me." If you think about it you are never truly entitled to heaven or hell. Purgatory is the eternal state of a soul and it would only be right for an all--forgiving and all-good God to forgive some people in hell who have truly repented their sins and let them into heaven as well as send people messing up the decorum of heaven to hell.

"Free will is a myth because no one can freely choose what he/she says or does." Then why do the ten commandments say not to give false testimony and not to Use God's name in vain? If the words used by a person are all predetermined by God it would be idiotic for him to command this and then punish you for doing what he made you do.

"Whatever happens is in God's plan. No one can escape their destiny." Then why does god destine people to hell unfairly?

"Why would God allow "free will" to interfere with his plans?" I don't know but I don't think that Saddam Hussein knows either.
Debate Round No. 1
Maryland_Kid

Pro

It says in the Bible that we are predestined to be God's Children. See:
*Romans 8:30 http://www.biblegateway.com... 8%3A30
*John 6:44 http://bible.cc...
*John 6:37-40 http://biblia.com...
*Acts 4:28 http://biblia.com...
*Ephesians 1:11 http://biblia.com...
*Romans 8:29-30 http://www.biblegateway.com...
*1 Corinthians 2:7 http://biblia.com...
*Ephesians 1:5 http://biblia.com...
*Romans 8:33-34 http://biblia.com...
*Romans 8:38-29

http://carm.org...
http://www.gotquestions.org...

Calvinists do not teach that man can be good on his own. We need the Holy Spirit. Calvinists teach Total Depravity http://www.prca.org...

All good actions are performed by man because the Holy Spirit inside of him. See:
*Romans 3:10-12 http://www.biblegateway.com...
*Isaiah 57:1 http://bible.cc...
*1 Corinthians 2:14 http://www.biblegateway.com...
*Romans 8:7 http://www.biblegateway.com...
*Jeremiah 17:9 http://biblia.com...
*1 Corinthians 2:14 http://biblia.com...
*Romans 8:7 http://biblia.com...
*Romans 3:12 http://biblia.com...
*Romans 14:23 http://biblia.com...
http://www.gotquestions.org...

The Holy Spirit is inside of every Christian. See:
*Galatians 3:14 http://www.biblegateway.com...
*Acts 2:38 http://www.biblegateway.com...

http://www.jimmcguiggan.com...

God doesn't choose people to go to hell and isn't the author of sin. God is not a God of evil but a God allowed calamity. http://carm.org...

Their own actions choose to go there.
http://www.openbible.info...
http://importantmessages.blogspot.com...
http://www.gospeltruth.net...

I don't know why you compared me to Hilter, Stalin, Christopher Hitchens, Ricky Gervais or Richard Dawkins. Sounds like Ad Hominem and Guilt by Association. http://www.nizkor.org... http://www.nizkor.org... You've also played the Hitler card or Godwin's Law. http://tvtropes.org...

You need to give arguments and verses for Arminianism.
Consummator

Con

Consummator forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Maryland_Kid

Pro

My opponent forfeited this round. I will try to answer any objections anyone has that I haven't already addressed.

Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean that we can lose our salvation? No. There are two ways to interpret this. First, Christians who "fall away," can't be forgiven again. I don't think this is true because of the word "impossible" and "if." Second, it is talking about unbelievers who are in church or at least exposed to the faith. "Tasting" in this verse is similar to Jesus "tasting" death. He did not completely experience it as in died and never came back. It is likely talking about people in the parable who were like the ground was rocky or the sun scorched them for being deep enough. It also says "if" they fall away and . The Bible verse doesn't say that they can because it's "impossible."

http://www.gotquestions.org...

The idea that man is saved by continuing to believe in God on his own accord sounds a lot like salvation by works. This isn't what the Bible teaches. http://carm.org...

Here are some other verses that show that people are born into the Kingdom of God by God himself.
Romans 9:16 http://bible.cc...
Consummator

Con

Consummator forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Maryland_Kid

Pro

Other objections:

Why doesn't God save everyone? It's not in his plan that everyone should receive grace which is a gift we don't deserve. http://www.biblegateway.com... http://bible.cc...

It also says that the outer man is dying but the inner man is being renewed everyday! http://bible.cc... How could we go backward?
Consummator

Con

Consummator forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Maryland_Kid

Pro

It seems my opponent's profie has been deleted. There's nothing more to say for my position. Vote Pro!
Consummator

Con

Consummator forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
Next time advertise here: http://www.debate.org...
Posted by Maryland_Kid 4 years ago
Maryland_Kid
Someone has to vote! >:-(
Posted by Maryland_Kid 4 years ago
Maryland_Kid
Well, Consumator's profile has been deleted so there's really no debate.
Posted by Maryland_Kid 4 years ago
Maryland_Kid
Great!
Posted by YYW 4 years ago
YYW
This debate has tremendous potential, and I'll look forward to reading it.
No votes have been placed for this debate.