The Instigator
GenEd
Pro (for)
Losing
13 Points
The Contender
Ragnar_Rahl
Con (against)
Winning
24 Points

Flag Burning Should Be Illegal In The United States

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/23/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,466 times Debate No: 4154
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (11)

 

GenEd

Pro

In this country, slander, libel, defamation... they're all illegal. One cannot degrade another's character without the possible consequence of punishment by law. So why is it that people feel it is okay to damage or deface a symbol of the United States? If I held up a picture of Con to act as a symbol of Con, and went to his or her workplace and said negative things about Con, while destroying or abusing the symbol of Con, I could get in big trouble. But the United States as an entity should have rights too. These rights should be protected by the people, since the U.S. often protects the rights OF the people. There should be a love or at least a loyalty to one's country. It should be illegal to burn a U.S. flag in protest because it is the same as libel or slander or defamation of one's character - the character of the United States. This symbol may be meaningless to some, but for others, it is a very emotional and meaningful emblem which should be respected. If demonstrators were truly trying to protest in peace, in a way that showed reverence and respect (such as Martin Luther King's protests in the 1960s), they would find alternative ways of getting their point across without striking that sensitive nerve.

Thanks for hearing me out.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

First, the phrase "Slander, libel, and defamation" is redundant. Slander and libel are both subcategories of defamation.
Second, you misunderstand the concept of defamation here. You can "degrade" another's character, as long as you have reason to believe it is true. It is only demonstrably false statements that are a legal issue. Third, you are very rarely if ever "punished" qua the goal of punishment for the issue- defamation is a tort, not a crime. Generally you are only required to make amends, usually through money, a separate concept from punishment.

"If I held up a picture of Con to act as a symbol of Con, and went to his or her workplace and said negative things about Con, while destroying or abusing the symbol of Con, I could get in big trouble."

For trespassing on the workplace maybe, and if you make it look like a threat, aggravated assault. But as long as it's clear there is no threat, you are quite free to burn a person in effigy, and insult people (as long as you aren't saying demonstrably false things), etc. And of course, if one is doing this in relation to a public figure, you're even freer.

"But the United States as an entity should have rights too. "

The United States is not an entity, it is an area. The United States Government is an entity (a voluntary group). And has long ago surrendered any claim to rights by violating the property rights of millions of Americans.

"These rights should be protected by the people, since the U.S. often protects the rights OF the people."

"The people" is not an entity, and has no rights, nor ability to protect rights. Individuals within that abstract label are entities, many of whom have rights. And the U.S. government violates the rights of individuals much more often than it protects them.

"There should be a love or at least a loyalty to one's country."
See property rights, violation of. Or just go look at the IRS. At most there should perhaps be a mild affection, and only that because other governments do worse things, but that's up to the people in question.

"t should be illegal to burn a U.S. flag in protest because it is the same as libel or slander or defamation of one's character -"
No, it's not. In what sense is the burning of a flag a "False statement?"
Burning a flag is an action, which can convey many statements depending on the context, many of which are true, and others of which the US courts are in essence constitutionally forbidden from deciding a "Truth value" of (See "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act. ")

Also, most flag burners own the flags in question. I'm really annoyed by the idea of the government violating property rights EVEN MORE.
Debate Round No. 1
GenEd

Pro

GenEd forfeited this round.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

Well, it appears you forfeit. Don't go trying to resurrect this either, I won't have the time in the next few days. :D
Debate Round No. 2
GenEd

Pro

GenEd forfeited this round.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

The same as I said above. This computer gets turned in tomorrow. Good luck to yeh some other time :D
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
See also:

"See property rights, violation of. Or just go look at the IRS. At most there should perhaps be a mild affection, and only that because OTHER GOVERNMENTS DO WORSE THINGS,"
Posted by Im_always_right 8 years ago
Im_always_right
>>>Shakes in fear hoping Ragnar Rahl doesn't decide to eat me<<<<

lol, I really hate forfeits, Pro forfeited, and never gave an excuse or warning thus I like anyone else that read this must vote con.

I agree strongly with pro though...maybe if he said something about, "If you don't like the country, buy a plane ticket and get out."

Ragnar would have a harder time tearing him apart.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
After tonight it'll be a few weeks before I can do much. Course then I'll be hungry, so watch out :D
Posted by Spiral 8 years ago
Spiral
Nice to see you back around Ragnar.
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Vote Placed by philosphical 8 years ago
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