The Instigator
Mila
Con (against)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
lloxit
Pro (for)
Winning
9 Points

Flag burning and reality vs. the illusion you try to create.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/13/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,240 times Debate No: 2606
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (12)
Votes (5)

 

Mila

Con

Flag burning is not american. You support everything but our President even though you support everything he does. I know you joined this just for class but you need to at least be realistic on this sight. What do you so much support in the Communist.
lloxit

Pro

its the citizens right. if your against this, would you be against retiring flags? thats exactly what you do to retire a flag, burn it.
Debate Round No. 1
Mila

Con

Mila forfeited this round.
lloxit

Pro

lloxit forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
I would say that the only people causing violence at a flag burning are those who want to beat those up who are burning it. That's the same argument as saying gays can't be in the military because they will cause everyone around them to beat them up. That's a dumb argument and you're blaming the wrong people.

People who burn the flag are so pissed at the country that they don't feel letter writing wouldn't make a difference since the people reading those letters don't care. I don't agree with them, but that is how they feel, so saying they have other means doesn't mean anything to them.

What is the unlawful conduct you're talking about? The flag burning or the violence surrounding it? I've already explained why the violence argument is baseless, so you must be talking about the flag burning. Ever wonder why no one just introduces a law banning it and why they always try to push a constitutional amendment instead? Because flag burning is protected by the 1st amendment. Flag burning does not cause any harm to anyone in and of itself. The people who hate it turn out to be the violent ones. Therefore, people have the freedom to express themselves through that conduit.

There was some emotion behind it, but its a good argument. I laid out an easy line of logic that would point to Cindy Sheehan being perfectly justified in burning a flag, at least under what you said before. If they feel their government is responsible for a massacre, you said that those situations ok to have flags burned over. 4000 soldiers, and killing more people in the last 5 years than Saddam did in his 24 yearsof ruling the country, is a massacre of epic purportions. Therefore, under your logic, Cindy Sheehan should be allowed to burn a flag.

Truman actually had the lowest approval ratings at 28%. The south reviled Lincoln for obvious reasons, but the north loved him. Both men did a hell of a lot more positive things for our country than Bush ever did.
Posted by Ironduke 9 years ago
Ironduke
That was an emotionally charged comment. Burning flags is often just the tip of the iceberg so to speak. It is normally followed by physical violence. Saying "it allows people to take their frustration out an it rather than government property" (or something close) is an excuse for unlawful conduct. People will burn flags to express their feelings publicly. That is usually in a riot. Therefore, the connotations with flag burning is that of violence. And yes, people have to express their emotion, but in a country like The USA, they are all educated enough to write a letter, or at the most protest peacefully, with out destruction of public or private property.

In comment to the Bush paragraph, the best defence is a good offence. I agree he is bull headed, but, remember, President Lincoln was the most hated president of his time, maybe all time. But this is about the flag.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
It has nothing to do with the principles that made the flag. It has much more to do with the perceived deviation from those founding principles. Burning the flag means that you attribute some meaning to that flag. Otherwise, burning it would be meaningless to you. In poor countries like what your talking about, they attribute little or no meaning to the flag or the country in the first place, so why would they burn the flag? Disgruntled people in those countries resort to violence. Burning the flag allows disgruntled people in this country to express their anger with the corruption of the government without resorting to actually harming anyone.

Would losing family members because we were manipulated and lied to in order to get us in a war we had no real reason to start in the first place get close enough to what you were talking about? Those are nearly 4000 soldiers who are dead that wouldn't be if Bush hadn't taken advantage of 9/11 and twisted every bit of information he could to get us into a war that his handlers had been planning on since 1992. 4000 counts as a slaughter, doesn't it? Are families that have lost loved ones in this retarded war justified in burning flags under your qualifier?
Posted by Ironduke 9 years ago
Ironduke
If that is your stance, then who am I to challenge that. What does a symbol stand for? Because, if I was an outside observer, and I saw you burning a flag, I would think you were burning the principles that made this flag in the first place. That is all. The flag is tied to the principles. Burning it indicates displeasure with the principles on which the country is being run. Anyway, this is just my opinion. In our countries, none should have the opportunity of burning their flag. We are far to well off for that. Save the flag burning for people who have lost families to slaughters by their governments.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
You're right. It is a symbol. It is just that. It is a symbol of what we love and what many have fought for, but they fought for those principles, not the flag itself. Burning the flag allows people to use it as a symbol again to express their extreme displeasure with the course of the country without resorting to other, more violent, rebellious measures. If its burning flags or bombing federal buildings, I choose flag burning.

I thought we were past the Roman way of doing things. Sure, they crucified people who burned eagles...though I'm not sure if you're talking about actual eagles or the metal ones at the end of their staffs which were metal and wouldn't burn...but would you really want a country that would take symbols that seriously? What else would you take from the Roman way of doing things?

It is just a flag. We can make many more of them. I think flag inflation has already set in with all of the cheap flags we're importing from China, so a few less might be a good thing. I'm joking, of course, but it really is just a symbol. It isn't the real thing. Get over it.
Posted by Ironduke 9 years ago
Ironduke
The flag is more than a "piece of dyed cloth" It is a symbol of the Country and the respect, honor and patriotism that many millions have died to uphold. To bun it publicly is tantamount to treason. Yes, a flag is burnt to retire it, but to do so publicly, to get a scene or take out their anger is absolutely immoral. I am a Canadian, but I still view the flag as a symbol of the country, burn the flag, you are declaring an act of sedition. The Roman Empire had their Eagles, and if you burnt those, you would be crucified literally. It is the same for the Flag. What would the Veterans say. What happened to "Lest We Forget"
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
The flag is just a symbol. It is dyed cloth. If people can show any kind of displeasure with the country, the direction its going in and the leadership that is dragging us down that road, they should be able to express this displeasure by taking it out on an inanimate object that happens to be flammable. Not only does the first amendment guarantee freedom of nonviolent expression, but wouldn't you rather that protest stay nonviolent by protestors taking it out on a flag instead of something more valuable and less replaceable, like another person?
Posted by Pluto2493 9 years ago
Pluto2493
The army burns flags out of honor- is that not patriotic?
Posted by John_Quincy_Adams 9 years ago
John_Quincy_Adams
Does anyone think age restrictions would be positive addition to this site?
Posted by teach85 9 years ago
teach85
The proper method of disposing of a flag is to burn it, but if you read the flag code it states that it is to be properly folded, and placed inside an envelope or covering, and burned in a private way. Much different than a burning flag held by a protestor being used to attract media attention...
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by birdpiercefan3334 9 years ago
birdpiercefan3334
MilalloxitTied
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Vote Placed by John_Quincy_Adams 9 years ago
John_Quincy_Adams
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Vote Placed by Conservative 9 years ago
Conservative
MilalloxitTied
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Vote Placed by ClayTrainor 9 years ago
ClayTrainor
MilalloxitTied
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Vote Placed by ComradeJon1 9 years ago
ComradeJon1
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