The Instigator
Greener49
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Ragnar
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

Flash would beat Arrow in a fight

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Ragnar
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/19/2015 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,925 times Debate No: 68561
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
Votes (3)

 

Greener49

Pro

Acceptance first round. Please don't forfeit or be a troll.
Ragnar

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
Greener49

Pro

Wow I can't believe some one actually accepted this debate. Well any way's yes Arrow might have skill with a bow, but flash has speed.Flash can run up to about 7 times faster then a blink of a eye and arrow's only travail at 200 to 300 feet per second. Which is a lot slower then something going 7 times faster then a blink of a eye. So I dought that Arrow will even land a arrow on the flash.
Ragnar

Con

Preamble:
From Greener49's other debates in this superhero battle series [1-4], I assume Beat to be used as a synonym for Defeat "to win a victory over (someone or something) in a war, contest, game, etc." [5].

Arguments:
I shall present a case that Arrow would more likely than not win said fight. However, should the fight prove a tie, the resolution would still be negated. Finally this resolution is not on the possibility of a superhuman victory over a mere mortal, it's on the certainty of it. Which means that while my hero lacks flashy superpowers, I have a much lower Burden of Proof.

Even holding back, Arrow won.
As shown in the YouTube Video [6] (every timestamp I give this round, shall point to it).
At the 2:30 mark, Arrow is proven to have the speed to punch a fully aware Flash in the face, even when he was trying to dodge. Whereas The Flesh with all his power, was unable to escape a basic hold for 9 seconds (3:18-3:27). Arrow tends to kill people with a lot less time.
The best thing that can be said for The Flesh, is his close friend Cisco Ramon insisting "it's a tie" at the 4:05 mark. Also keep in mind this was with The Flesh having the rare advantage of not holding back, literally attempting to kill Arrow at the 1:50 mark.

The fight was canon.
Arrow was developed by Greg Berlanti, Marc Guggenheim, and Andrew Kreisberg [7].
The Flash was developed by Greg Berlanti, Andrew Kreisberg, and Geoff Johns [8].
The episode in question "Flash vs. Arrow" was written by none other than Greg Berlanti, and Andrew Kreisberg [9].

Flash had a ton of advantages, but still failed.
The fight happened in Central City, giving The Flash home turf advantage.
The Flesh was not holding back, while Arrow was. Usually that is inverse.
Finally it was on The Flesh rather than Arrow; causing the writers need to make him look good.

Technique trumps everything else.
It's common knowledge among fighters, and put simply by martial artist Lex Fridman: "Technique Beats Strength, Conditioning, Experience, and Heart" [10].

Arrow has been at this for years, he has survived by skill instead of superpowers.

Rebuttals:
In case the above is not enough…

"Arrow might have skill with a bow, but flash has speed."
As laid out above, speed doesn't trump technique.
As for questions of his skill with a bow, I will turn to John Diggle at the 0:42 mark, "Do you have any idea how many people Oliver has killed with that bow and arrow?" Plus at 1:57 while falling to his death, he was able to land a second arrow within a foot of another; questioning his skill with a bow would be akin to questioning if The Flesh knows how to tie his shoelaces.

"I dought that Arrow will even land a arrow on the flash."
At 0:14 gets a line around him (could have easily been an arrow through the heart). 1:05 catches him in the blast of exploding arrows. 1:17 a normal arrow from behind. 2:54 again.

Sources:
[1] http://www.debate.org...
[2] http://www.debate.org...
[3] http://www.debate.org...
[4] http://www.debate.org...
[5] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
[6] YouTube Video
[7] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[8] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[9] http://arrow.wikia.com...
[10] http://lexfridman.com...

Debate Round No. 2
Greener49

Pro

I have also have seen the T.V fight,but you forget that flash has healing factor. Which will render mostly every attack the Arrow can do pretty much useless.Now you say the best thing said for the Flash was Cisco Ramon saying ' it's a tie ' your wrong, because it the Arrow episode of the crossover they basically agreed no one won that fight.You also said that they had to make the Flash 'look good' on the show Flash,because it was his show. Well also again in the Arrow episode of the crossover, the Flash looked way better then the Arrow and saved Arrow's but to. https://www.youtube.com... Lex Fridman quote does not say in it that skill beat's speed, their for it is invalid. Finally Arrow got beat by ra's al gaul and in the start ra's start to win with dodging with speed which Flash can easily do and in the end ra's one will pure strength. https://www.youtube.com...
Ragnar

Con

Rereading my previous round, I caught a mistake. Sorry to any Flash fans I offended with misspelling his name; it was entirely unintentional.

Defenses:
"You say the best thing said for the Flash was Cisco Ramon saying ' it's a tie ' your wrong, because it the Arrow episode of the crossover they basically agreed no one won that fight."
Stacking evidence to call it a tie, does not assist you in affirming the resolution that The Flash would win.
Worse this outcome was with every advantage stacked in The Flash's favor. Such as Flash doesn't normally kill people (as he tried to do in their fight), whereas Arrow does all the time, even for little things like someone discovering he knows how to fight (not even that he's Arrow).

"Lex Fridman quote does not say in it that skill beat's speed,"
When an incredibly experienced fighter says in regards to fighting that "Technique is King" [10], I tend to believe he knows what he's talking about. Otherwise fighting championships would be won by the most hyper person, rather than the controlled person who has put in the dedication to hone their techniques.
Note from the previous round that Arrow was able to "punch a fully aware Flash in the face, even when he was trying to dodge."
Consider that Arrow villains like to think of how much slower a bow and arrow is to their guns. In addition to how much faster the bullets travel. Arrow killed 55 people in the first season alone, most of them armed with these much faster attacks.
To further highlight Arrow's superior fighting ability, I have attached a video of his training [11].

Rebuttals:
"flash has healing factor. Which will render mostly every attack the Arrow can do pretty much useless."
He heals fast, knitting a broken bone in hours rather than weeks. This is not instant, as already shown at the end of my R2 video, with him limping away having to put his weight onto Arrow's shoulder at the 4:10 mark.
The Flash was left defenseless for 20 seconds following Arrow shooting him full of horse tranquilizer (1:17-2:38 mark in R2 video). This was with Arrow showing massive restraint, not to launch more attacks in that time. Later (as already pointed out) all of The Flash's speed left him "unable to escape a basic hold." As The Flash still needs to breathe, a headlock would be enough to render him unconscious.
Finally on this point, Arrow actually knows how to cause damage. Whereas The Flash even while trying to kill him, was unable to cause any lasting injury. The next episode, and again the one after that, Arrow suffered no signs of a beating.

"the Flash looked way better then the Arrow and saved Arrow's but to."
Awareness of surroundings, something The Flash was repeatedly demonstrated a lack of in my R2 video even when he has home turf advantage. In the case of Arrow standing there letting The Flash catch boomerangs out of the air, this is stealing weapons from their mutual enemy, who has a limited supply.
As for "looked way better then the Arrow" I will fully admit The Flash's costume is more pleasing to the eye, but such has no bearing on fight outcomes other than being easy to spot.

"Arrow got beat by ra's al gaul…"
Yes Arrow can lose fights, however losing a fight to someone The Flash has (to my knowledge) not been able to defeat, shows nothing of The Flash's fighting ability. If The Flash has defeated him, please provide a link? Moreover, Arrow was at a severe disadvantage in his fight with Ra's Al Ghul, such as being forced to fight with Ra's weapons to which he was unfamiliar instead of his own.

"…in the start ra's start to win with dodging with speed which Flash can easily do…"
Ra's Al Ghul relied on technique instead of super-speed. The Flash "even when he was trying to dodge" with his super-speed, still got punched in the face. Ra's Al Ghul on the other hand was only stuck once, when taken by surprise.

Sources:
[11] Another YouTube Video

Debate Round No. 3
Greener49

Pro

Number 1, lack of awareness of his surroundings that is incorrect because he was in a berserk rage therefore he would not be that aware of his surroundings.To also add on yes Flash might have been trying to kill the Arrow, but that would also make him over confident of his power's more then he regularly is, which would lead to more mistakes.

Number two, if someone's really hyper that doesn't make them super fast. The Flash is super fast, has some technique and is super strong.Plus he can run faster then the human can see with proof here https://www.youtube.com...

Number three to highlight the Flashes superior fighting ability, here is some of his training https://www.youtube.com... and the next video skip to the Flash part of the show and they will talk about Barry blowing up a drone. Which was shooting rapid fire bullet's at him and missal's.https://www.youtube.com...

Number four , yes his healing factor is not instant but it does give him a edge over the Arrow who has no healing factor at all.

Number five, Arrow die's twice in their fight. At 1: 57 Arrow fell from the building backwards their for his arrow's would have fell out of his pack and he would of fell to his death. If some how he still has his arrow's in his pack and he get's the right one he would still die from the almost instant stop, shown in the Amazing Spider-man 2 it would break his neck https://www.youtube.com.... But finally he would have probably would have at lest been paralyzed when he grappled to the top of the building because of how fast he was going expanded in this video https://www.youtube.com....
Ragnar

Con

In Short:
They did fight, The Flash did not win.

Rebuttals:
Normally the final round isn't for new argument lines and sources, but there are new ones I must address; I will however only use sources directly connected to new points from Greener49…

"lack of awareness of his surroundings that is incorrect because he was in a berserk rage"
If The Flash is only unaware of his surroundings when in a "berserk rage," but is regularly unaware of his surroundings, than there was nothing special about the rage he suffered in said fight. As demonstrated at the 0:52 mark of my video this round [12], he is regularly unaware of his surroundings.

"over confident of his power's more then he regularly is, which would lead to more mistakes."
Comparing the 2:50 mark of my R2 video [6] to the 1:35 mark of the current one [12], The Flash was actually more aware of his surroundings during this fight than normal; which defeats the point. Any special circumstances clearly led to less mistakes, and can thus be assumed to be strictly beneficial for him.

"if someone's really hyper that doesn't make them super fast."
According to the dictionary Hyper is defined as "extremely active" [13], and active is defines as "doing things that require physical movement and energy" [14], so hyper does relate to speed.
As seen with the fighting championships, speed clearly does not assure victory. More of it may be helpful, but not an assurance. Technique remains king.

"The Flash is super fast, has some technique and is super strong"
I will not deny his great speed (more on that next).
However, his fighting technique seems greatly lacking; as demonstrated when he "was unable to escape a basic hold for 9 seconds."
As there are no rounds left for you to support this claimed super-strength, I will merely point out if he is "super strong," it is leveraged so ineffectively by his flawed technique that he was unable to leave any lasting injury even when trying to kill someone, and again, apparently with super-strength he still "was unable to escape a basic hold for 9 seconds." That is nine seconds with super-strength and super-speed.

"Plus he can run faster then the human can see with proof here"
His speed with women, is not an indicator of his speed in a fight.

"to highlight the Flashes superior fighting ability, here is some of his training"
His training looks suspiciously ineffective, like he's just talking to a girl while she pours sugar. Which brings me back to "his speed with women, is not an indicator of his speed in a fight."
Regarding the second video (fixed link for it here http://youtu.be...)... That has to be the single least impressive fight on any of these shows; the drone is mentioned but never seen, it never fires those mentioned bullets, and the one missile (singular not plural) is a still frame slow enough that most people could catch it and throw it somewhere.

"yes his healing factor is not instant but it does give him a edge over the Arrow who has no healing factor at all."
Sadly this was already self-refuted. Flash does not heal instantly, Arrow apparently (at least when in the presence of The Flash) does heal instantly, even from fatal injuries…

"Arrow die's twice in their fight."
Yet it did not slow him down. That Arrow is apparently immortal and recovers instantly from deaths (and probably paralysis) is news to me, but such only ruins The Flash's chances of defeating him. I suppose this means Ra's Al Ghul's sword was magic, but such is a weapon The Flash does not have access to.

"At 1: 57 Arrow fell from the building backwards their for his arrow's would have fell out of his pack"
I did not notice him lose his arrows, but I'll take your word for it that it happened… Much like dying twice, the loss of them also did not snow him down, as he somehow produced new ones on the spot to instantly continue the fight; this removes any ammo limitations he would have otherwise suffered from.

"Spider-man"
Spider-Man vs. Gwen Stacy, is not comparable to The Flash vs. Arrow, no matter how many links are given to the same video.

Conclusion:
They did fight, The Flash did not win.
The main trust of each of Greener49's arguments have been refuted or were self-defeating (such as claiming Arrow died multiple times during the fight we all watched). Regardless of how anyone feels about the characters, the evidence presented in this debate is not in favor of The Flash winning, it actually suggests the near impossibility of that.

Sources:
[12] YouTube: Barry and Oliver train
[13] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
[14] http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Ragnar 2 years ago
Ragnar
Thanks for the debate, and for the votes (and any future ones, including ones against me).

"Wow I can't believe some one actually accepted this debate" pretty much summarizes why I accepted. I only just started watching Arrow (still on the first season), and I basically view him as The Dark Knight crossed with Dexter; exploring the angle of him vs a real superhero (who exists in the same universe), seemed a good challenge.

As far as the comics go, it would be a shut and closed matter. In fact I question the JLA's moral choice of putting unpowered humans on the front lines. He'd inevitably get his hand stuck in a trap that wouldn't even damage Superman's cape and die.
Posted by Greener49 2 years ago
Greener49
sorry here is the real last video https://www.youtube.co...
Posted by Greener49 2 years ago
Greener49
I did not say his arrow's fell out of his pack I said they should of
Posted by Ragnar 2 years ago
Ragnar
A small request for voters: Regardless of who you vote for, please mention if you would have voted differently prior to the final round.
Posted by Dragonblade 2 years ago
Dragonblade
The thing is, the Flash could probably beat Arrow, but then again, he can beat everybody because of is speed, which is what makes his story so boring (to me). That is why I will always like Arrow better than The Flash, because you never know if Arrow will win or lose. (Plus Cisco and Caitlin are SUPREMELY one-dimensional and annoying)
Posted by Greener49 2 years ago
Greener49
My website's for round one http://www.chacha.com... and http://www.chacha.com...
Posted by Poe-vahkiin 2 years ago
Poe-vahkiin
Honestly, Green Arrow has always been above Flash in my favorites list. However, I have also always preferred Goku to Superman. Though I wish I could honestly say the Green Arrow would win, statistically speaking, Flash would win every time. He could land dozens, or even hundreds, of blows before Oliver Queen even knew Flash was there.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Maikuru 2 years ago
Maikuru
Greener49RagnarTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro was damned by allowing the debate to be framed around the television characters rather than the comic book incarnations, though it should be noted that Con linked the episode in which the characters fight to two comic book creators. As such, Con's presentation of the television fight in which Arrow clearly wins needed to be fully refuted for Pro to win. Pro chose a different approach, largely attacking irrelevant points (e.g. Flash's healing factor, Con's quote regarding technique trumping speed). Pro did not attack Con's arguments until the final round, where they would traditionally be ignored. Even if they were not, however, various points still stood in Con's favor: Arrow's superior technique, his lack of injury, the multiple times he was able to connect with the Flash (in terms of both a physical attack and projectiles), and the fact that he was holding back while Flash was not. Con takes arguments.
Vote Placed by warren42 2 years ago
warren42
Greener49RagnarTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's Round 1 was all that was needed to win. It went mostly unrefuted, and his observation that "would" implies certainty was excellent, as it did show that Pro had created a larger burden of proof for himself rather than his opponent. I went into this debate assuming Pro would be able to win easily, but Con did a great job.
Vote Placed by Paleophyte 2 years ago
Paleophyte
Greener49RagnarTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Good conduct to both. Con made more convincing arguments. Pro's arguments were very brief with the exception of the final round.