The Instigator
Darth_Grievous_42
Pro (for)
Winning
24 Points
The Contender
whitesoxfan450
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points

Flight vs. Invisibility

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/22/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 10,367 times Debate No: 3338
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (8)
Votes (9)

 

Darth_Grievous_42

Pro

I am Pro, but that does not mean much right now. This is a four round debate, so I will let my opponent choose the power he/she wishes to defend. Thus, if my opponent wishes to defend flight, I will fight for invisibility, and vice versa. What makes these powers unique is that neither is particularly heroic. Flight is just transportation, and invisibility is just disguise. Neither can do much to save someone from a burning building, or be used to fight crime. Yet, they are some of the most common powers people wish they had.

Here are the rules:
There are only the two superpowers, flight and invisibility. No strength, not x-ray visions, no invincibility, no talking to fish, just those two by themselves. They are the only person in the world to have this power.

Flight: A person can fly. They can reach an altitude of 2400 meters without getting AMS, but can reach 8850 meters progressively, and travel at speeds up to 11-12 G's without blacking out. These are normal proportions for a normal person. They can lift things 1/4 their weigh, so maybe a bit more than a suitcase. However, they can succumb to weather conditions, temperature, and AMS if they are not careful.

Invisibility: A person can turn totally invisible. They and their clothes can turn invisible at will, but not things they touch/hold, like a coffee cup, pens, etc. In normal circumstances, they will not give any traces at all that they could be visible (like the Predator cloak, light glances, etc) it will look as though they are honestly not there. However, they are not immune to physics, meaning they can be felt if touched, water will splash on them, lasers can hit them, and their footprints will show up in mud/snow etc.

While thinking over which side you want, consider this: Who do you want to be - The person you hope to be or the person you fear you really are ?
whitesoxfan450

Con

Hi, thanks for a great topic!

I will argue on the Flight Side

Having the power to fly would be way better than Invisibility. The only really good thing about invisibility is possibly getting in somewhere, with no one knowing. While with flght, you can get to places faster, easier, and more efficiently. If you are trying to save someone from the 6th floor of a building, what is invisibility going to do? Nothing. Therefore, flight has more advantages than invisibility, and is the better power!
Debate Round No. 1
Darth_Grievous_42

Pro

Likewise, thank you for accepting this debate. It should be noted that this was not my original idea, but was taken from John Hodgman's "This American Life", which is also where I got the last quote. It's very interesting, and I hope you all get a chance to read it.

I will argue for invisibility.

Invisibility is obviously the better superpower choice. Flight is only transportation. A method to get from point A to point B, maybe point C if your feeling adventurous. So what are the points? Your house? Wal-Mart? Work? All places you could easily reach in a car. Perhaps you feel like being more extreme, and want to travel the world. Here inlays a problem. It takes time to get there. I see you live in Chicago. Suppose you want to go to Madrid, Spain. That distance from you is about 4193 miles. The fastest a man has ever gone is around 1780 mph (46g's), and sustained injuries from those speeds. 12 g's is what a normal person without any preparation can withstand until blacking out from the blood rushing to their feet. But assuming you do go that fast, and don't knock yourself unconscious thus falling t a watery grave, it would take four hours to get from point A to point B. That is still time to be effected by weather. The air friction would cause massive burns. A sudden storm could throw you off and still kill you. You could even faint from sunstroke, as many sailors do who encounter the blaring sea sun for long periods of time. Slowing down would only increase the chances of these or other danger's harming you. No one wants that. So there's many variables that could kill you just from flying. But even if we ignore that, it still just comes down to transportation. You can't really save anyone from a burning building with that. Yes, you could get to the 6th floor or higher faster than a fireman on foot, but then you have to go into the building and find the victims. But also keep in mind you can't carry anyone. Your flight powers are only strong enough to carry you, and maybe some baggage, but not another person. o even if you got up there, and survived all the perils of a house on fire, you'd end up needing to walk down, exposing both you and the person you are trying to save to more dangers. So flights really only good for skipping past 5 o'clock traffic.

So that's why flight is bad. Here's why invisibility is god.

Invisibility is full of opportunities for personal gain. You know that one thing you really want but can't buy? Invisibility is any thief's dream. You could manage to take any car you want and they would never be able to track down who took it, because for all any camera can see, the car drove off by itself. You could go into a store near closing time and cloak yourself, then when nobody is in, have a little shopping spree. You might say these are unethical, but think about it: why do you spend the time saving up paper when the object you desire is right there, not restrained by anything accept your own will? The only reason you don't take it is because you are scared of the repercussions. If you are caught you'll be caught and sent to jail. But now you are not restricted by anything. You can't be caught. There is no downside. The world is yours. You can sneak into movies. You could blackmail corporations. If you wanted to go on that trip to Madrid you could stow away on an airplane, maybe even sit in first class. Once your on, nobody care's how you got there. You could live the dream every human desires: a world without responsibility. The only reason you look down on it now is because you've been taught it is unattainable, and that the consequences outweigh the possibilities. But now the consequences are gone, and the possibilities are endless. You know in your heart that you would jump on that opportunity, even if you would not admit it freely. So, my main point is that with flight, the world is yours to travel, but with invisibility, the world is yours to take.
whitesoxfan450

Con

FIrst, this is a great topic! And yes, if I get a chance, I may check out that part on This American Life. Thanks for the info! Now, since I'm a debater, I'll give a roadmap(Where I will go) I will first go on my case(Flight advantages) And then to the con case(invisibility advantages)

First, on my case:
1. Apply my argument from the first Con Speech. This arugument stated that flight helps get to places faster, easier, and more efficiently. While invisibility may help you get somewhere a bit more easily. My opponent stated that flight can cause you burns, and other types of injury. However, these injuries aren't likely for someone who flies safely. You could say that riding a bike is bad, because you can get sick from riding in the rain, but if you never DO ride in the ran, the argument is not unique, or doesn't apply. Also, you don't HAVE to fly at 1780 mph, it could be any speed.
2. Apply my argument of flight can help you get somewhere easier. While invisibility may get you in somewhere without being seen, you are still on the ground. How is invisibility going to help you get to the third floor of a building?

Next, on to my opponents case.
1. His argument of invisibility being a thiefs dream doesn't make sense. First, isn't this debate about superheroes? If it is, than arguing about villians is not relevant. Second of all, if the villian/hero DID have invisibility, he is still human. He still is on the floor. He could cut a few places in line, but he still has to push people out of the way!
2. My opponent used an example of taking a car. However, the car is not invisible, and the police can still find it. With being invisible, you have no transportation, and can't escape anywhere.
3. My opponent also made the argument that "with flight, the world is yours to travel, but with invisibility, the world is yours to take." However. you can't take the world without getting anywhere!

So, vote Con on these reasons.
1. Flight helps you TRAVEL, while invisibility only helps you Half-way secretly get in places.
2. Flight helps you do more
3. Invisibility only has one advantage, while flight has many. I will state them in my next speech if my opponent wants me to
Debate Round No. 2
Darth_Grievous_42

Pro

Your Points:
1) If you ride your bike in the rain, you get sick. So you upgrade to a better, faster, more weather resistant means of transportation. While flying by your own means may be fun, it is certainly not safe. No matter how safe of a flier you are, you're always threatened by the weather. Even birds know this. They know how to read the weather, we do not. Besides, even if you did go slow, your still at risk of sun burns, sun stroke, altitude sickness, sudden weather changes, blizzards, lightning, tornado's.
2) I think the real question is how are YOU getting to the third story of a building? If you hadn't noticed lately, most buildings that are beyond 2 stories have sealed windows, including hotels and apartments. Even if you do manage to find an entrance able window, its still a window, and very small. Also, if your still trying to get away with your burning building case, I again bring up the weight restrictions the power of flight has.

My Points:
1) I never, ever mentioned Super heroes, only superpowers. If you'll read back, I've never hinted someone had to be heroic to have these powers, thus my point still stands.
1.5) There are always blank spots in any situation. And even if you did bump into someone, people just usually shrug it off as typical rudeness in the hustle and bustle. Even if they did look around, they'd only see hundreds of people, not the one invisible one. That's the whole points.
2) There's methods to hide a car. Replace the licence plate for one, repaint it, keep driving beyond county lines. As long as no suspicion is raised, the police won't notice it. And even if they found the car, there would be no physical evidence to show you where ever there, and even if they suspected you, good luck actually finding someone you can never see.
3)Like I've pointed out, you can always stow away, or take what you need to travel and get anywhere. In fact, all resources are now available, since no common security camera or watch guard will ever be able to detect you. With flight, if you feared criminal prosecution, you would still have to stay within any regions legal parameters, even if you did get there for free. In fact, you would still be considered illegal in any country without a passport. Many countries would even see you as a threat (since they can easily recognize your identity). They also might detect you by radar (for the more advanced countries) and try to shoot you down, in which case you would either need to gain altitude and risk AMS< or go faster and risk black outs and friction burns. Your choice.

Please, do not ever hold any possible argument back. I'll be glad to rebut them all next round. I'm very interested what you mean by "Flight helps you do more" and "Flight has more advantages". As of yet, I've not read one real advantage besides you can be your own elevator to get to a sealed buildings 3rd and 6th floors.

So, vote Pro on these reasons:
1) Flights risks far outweigh any reward in today's human and natural world
2) Invisibility's possibilities are endless, because you have finally escaped consequence.
3) Invisibility is the true power with many advantages, while flight can only do so much without being a threat to yourself.
whitesoxfan450

Con

My points:
1. You state that if you ride in the rain, you get better, faster, and more weather resistant, the same could go for flying. You could become more weather resistant(As you state is a problem for flying)
2. How am I going to get to the third story? Well, lets think about how you will first. So a building is burning, and the entrance is SEALED SHUT BY FIRE. There is no way for you to get to the third floor. For a flying hero, they could fly up, smash a window, and save the person. Also, if someone flying can't get through a window, how would a) someone invisible get through, or b) ANYONE get through? His logic makes little sense.

Pro Points:
1. You never mentioned SUPER POWERS in specific, but you did mention villians, so my point stands. The logic doesn't make sense.
2. Even if you did spraypaint the plate, or whatever, there are still cameras to see a car being painted, or driven away. Police can gather evidence!
3. What is easier, stowing away a jet pack, car, or anytype of transportation, or having it BUILT INTO YOUR BODY? Even if you could carry a skateboard, wouldn't it be easier to just fly? And, wouldn't it be illegal to get into a country with no passport while invisible? Someone could notice that a BODY LIKE figure is in their seat, and would call security, or an attendant.

Vote con for:
1) Flight rewards outweigh the small risks they have
2) Invisibility has very few advantages, and can't completely cover someone
3)Invisibility to can only do so much without harming yourself. ANY POWER can! With great power, comes great responsibility. Vote Con
Debate Round No. 3
Darth_Grievous_42

Pro

Your Points:
1) Get better from the weather how? If you were a rain coat, or rubber suit, to protect yourself from rain and lightning, you will still overheat and collapse from either dehydration or heat stroke. If you put on sun block you will protect yourself from sun burn, but not air friction, heat exhaustion, or lightning. And what protection, exactly, do you plan to put on that can save you from a tornado or hurricane? There's no garment of protection that can save someone, while flying, from the swirling vortex and colossal wind currents caused by these natural disasters. What do you plan to do then? "Just be safe"? If that's the case it looks like your either grounded permanently, or restricted to somewhere on Earth that has perfect and non-harmful weather all day, everyday. To my knowledge, that place doesn't exist. There are way too many safety hazards to warrant flying as being superior.
2) Again, you forget the weight restrictions. Whether it is 747 or an eagle, both can only take 1/4 of its own weight in order to get airborne and maintain it. The same applies for you. So unless what your dreaming of saving is either a baby, dwarf, cat, or small dog there's nobody else you can effectively save. Even a little old lady would be too heavy for you to sustain flight. Which still brings me back to where even if you do get into the building, chances are you will still have to manually bring the victim down, and brave the "SEALED SHUT BY FIRE" entrance. Anyway, my power doesn't need or want to save anybody. Saving people was not a prerequisite for being a better power, in fact, there were no set definitions for what makes either a better power. But so far, the only two examples you've given are massively flawed, and overall more harmful than helpful when it comes to your personal safety.

My Points
1) Perhaps you've forgotten. Please read ROUND 1 again carefully, and point out any moments were I specifically mentioned the need for these powers to be heroic or villainous. You'll notice I did not. The only point I came close to talking about it was when I mentioned that 'neither are particularly heroic'. In fact, all I mentioned were the super powers. This statement of yours is a fallacy.
2)The camera would see a floating paint can, and the car being possessed when it drives off by itself. No incriminating evidence against you specifically, but perhaps evil spirits. Even if they found the car, you just walk away silently and find a new one. It's that easy.
3)Considering all the hazards you face by having built in flight within a normal person, I'd much prefer to stow away on a plane (perhaps even a private one owned by some celebrity). Going to a new country without a passport would be illegal, but there would be no way they could catch me once in the borders. When visible, I would be just another face in the crowd, while you would be blip on a military radar, pronounced as 'an enemy bogey', and then a target on some fight squadrons screen or a missiles coordinates. Your not an illegal immigrant unless caught. Because I would technically never be there, I could stay as long as I want, but you being all too easy to detect would probably be dead before touching the ground.

So flight, while seemingly spectacular is nothing but a death trap waiting to be sprung. Invisibility on the other hand, is virtually flawless.

I'll remind the reader that your voting is not based on your personal opinion on either flight or invisibility, but which of us proved our point better. If you feel the need to justify your anonymous vote, your more than welcome to do so in the comments box. Darth_Grievous_42 out.
whitesoxfan450

Con

My Points:
1. You're contradicting yourself! Your saying that you CAN't completely get protected from weather, when you said you can in your last speech, disreguard this argument, since he contradicted himself. And what protection to stay away from a tornado or hurricane? Well, its obvious: STAY AWAY FROM IT! And plus, Hurricanes are in WATER, so if you just fly higher, you are ok!
2. You don't always have to fly down IF you give him this weight restriction argument. You can propell down, or just simpily jump. Also, your power doesn't need, or save anybody? Well, what use is it? For Crime? This shows my power can actually be USEFUL.

His points
1)The usual purpose of a power is to save someone, so if you don't save(and just STEAL, as my opponent is saying) its not going to be used for justice, which powers should be used for.
2)A floating can would be seen, and the car would be seen. There you go. There is proof RIGHT THERE. I win this argument. Also, footprints can be seen.
3)The ADVANTAGES OUTWEIGH THE SMALL RISK OF HARM! Tornados, just fly away. Hurricanes, just fly higher. Rain, well, rain doesn't even really affect you THAT much! And also, with flying you could speed up, so you aren't seen on the radar.
Flight is NOT a death trap, its the only actual POWER in this debate. Invisibility(AS MY OPPONENT STATED) doesn't save anyone, help anyone, or anything, so if you were a super hero with just invisibility, good luck saving anyone!
Vote CON Because:
ADVANTAGES OUTWEIGH HARM
Flight actually helps people
For my last voter, let me put the voters in a situation. If you were in trouble, on the third story of a building, BURNING, which hero would you want to save you? The hero who can become invisible, not get to you, and NOT EVEN HAVE THE ABILITY TO SAVE, or the person who can fly up, and jump/prapell/fly/slide down?
Vote con, because its the only SUPER POWER being debated.
Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Darth_Grievous_42 9 years ago
Darth_Grievous_42
I very much appreciate that comment dmoore. I look forward to viewing your future debates as well, and perhaps we will even go head to head.
Posted by dmoore 9 years ago
dmoore
Grevious I keep on watching your debates because you allways have such selective topics and you have an exceptional nag for analysis. I tip my hat to you thanks for the debate.
Posted by Pluto2493 9 years ago
Pluto2493
I guy at an assembly asked us this and a kid shouted out, "I'd wanna be invisible so I could walk around naked!"
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
I'm not going to vote because I have a heavy bias towards invisibility. I'll vote on issues like abortion and politics, but I actually feel quite strongly about seemingly trivial topics like these XD
Posted by Darth_Grievous_42 9 years ago
Darth_Grievous_42
So neither of you with vote because of the powers selected?
Posted by Randomknowledge 9 years ago
Randomknowledge
Agreed, kleptin, by far. I would give up both of those powers and any other superpower for the power to hear thoughts. Thats just me though...
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
Not voting in this one, I would be too biased.

The way I think about it, all sorts of government agencies are going to want to put me in a cage and hook me up to machines if they ever found out.

The ability to fly is pretty damn useless in day to day life, and if you try to use it in any useful way, you'll probably get caught.

Invisibility however, is much harder to get caught using.

However, I would give up both for the ability to hear people's thoughts at will.
Posted by Korezaan 9 years ago
Korezaan
That's a direct quote from I-forgot-his-name. The last line.
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