The Instigator
Blade-of-Truth
Pro (for)
Winning
21 Points
The Contender
imabench
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points

Forza is the best racing simulator series ever

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Blade-of-Truth
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/20/2014 Category: Games
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,353 times Debate No: 67387
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (18)
Votes (4)

 

Blade-of-Truth

Pro

http://en.wikipedia.org...

^^^

That's the series I support and what this debate solely refers to. Accept if you dare.

Rules:

No plagiarism

Forfeiting a round = automatic loss

Trolling = automatic loss

First round is for acceptance only.
imabench

Con

I accept this debate and shall argue that Mario Kart is infact the best racing simulator series ever

You may state your case
Debate Round No. 1
Blade-of-Truth

Pro

I want to thank Imabench for accepting this debate.

Clarifications & Definitions

The resolution is clear: Forza is the best racing simulator series ever.

I am Pro, meaning that I must show that Forza is better than any racing simulator series Con presents.

My opponent, Con, and has chosen Mario Kart as the best racing simulator series ever.

The BOP is split, I must show the audience that Forza is better than Mario Kart and Con must convince the audience that Mario Kart is better than Forza.

Better: higher in quality; more skillful; more attractive, appealing, effective, useful, etc. [1]

Best: better than all others in quality or value; most appropriate, useful, or helpful. [2]

Racing Simulator: Simulated racing is the collective term for computer software (i.e. a vehicle simulation game) that attempts to accurately simulate auto racing(a racing video game), complete with real-world variables such as fuel usage, damage, tire wear and grip, and suspension settings. [3]

Arguments

I. The incredible complexity of the Forza Motorsports Racing Series

The very first Forza game to hit the market was Forza Motorsport in 2005, a racing simulator game which received immediate commercial success due to the incredibly realistic and entertaining aspects of the game. On GameRankings, it has an overall score of 93.05% and on Metacritic it has an overall score of 92 out of 100. In the first game alone there was a grand total of 231 cars ranging from the Honda Civic to racing prototypes like the Audi R8.

I.A. Car Class and Customization

The cars are separated into 9 classes named D, C, B, A, S, and R (subclasses GT, GTS, and P1) [4] For instance, Class D are standard production vehicles like the Mitsubishi Eclipse - Class B are performance cars such as the Mustang GT - Class R are purpose-built race cars such as the Bentley Speed 8 or Audi R8.



Each class, except class R, has 4 subclasses with 1 being higher and 4 being lower rated. For instance, a D1 would be better than a D3. You can even manually upgrade the cars to move them between classes. While there are no subclasses for R, there are indeed subcategories ranging from R-GT such as the Dodge Viper Competition Coupe, the R-GTS which includes vehicles like the Saleen S7R, and finally the R-P1 which includes the best of the best suchas the McLaren F1 GTR.

Additionally, each car can be upgraded and tuned with a large number of extras and parts. The upgrades were separated into 3 categories: engine/power, appearance/aerodynamics and chassis/drivetrain. There is a wide range of tuning available including tire pressure (which changes during races due to temperature), downforce, gear ratios and limited slip differential.


I.B. Continued improvements and expanding depth

The most important point in regards to the complexity and continued success of the series would be the fact that Forza continues to add new cars, customizations, race types, improved graphics, and depth to the series. With Forza Motorsports 3, for instance, we see over 400 customizable cars (over 500 in the Ultimate Collectors Edition) from 50 car manufacturers and more than 100 race track variations. [5] Additionally, Forza 3 introduced the in-car view, one button assisted driving, vehicle rollovers with detailed undercarriages, drifting, drag racing, and SUV's.











In Forza Motorsports 4 we continue to see an increase of quality in nearly every aspect of the game, including some new additions which contribute to the ever-expanding depth of this racing simulator series such as utilizing the Kinect sensor system for Xbox.

This addition to the series saw with it a new mode called Autovista mode which allowed for players to view precise details of the interior gauges and detailed engine parts. [6] This game additionally featured a partnership with BBC's Top Gear as well as its American counterpart which included both narration and commentary from the shows host, Jeremy Clarkson. Metacritic reported 8 perfect scores from various media outlets which only further shows the high-esteem this game is held in.

The enhanced vehicle physics, updated visuals, and strong sound design are only some of the leaps this game made. For instance one new feature that appears in Forza 4 is the game's ability to adapt the difficulty as the player progresses through the career, and collect a trend of data to see how well they perform. This allows AI drivers to change and upgrade their cars automatically to suit the player's driving abilities. This is something which was truly ground-breaking and someone that, again, serves to reflect the dominance of this series over all others in regards to racing simulators. Another awesome feature that they upgraded from Forza 3 is the prizes. Instead of being forced to accept whatever prize is given, you are now given the choice of multiple prizes in the forms of various cars or sponsors after each win. It's pretty awesome and a great way to fill your garage without spending a single dollar on a new vehicle.

Lastly, this game, like it's predecessors, includes 17 real-world race tracks among countless others. You are literally racing on the same courses that professional drivers race on in the real world.













It is empirically evident that the game not only has an incredible depth to it, but more so that with every new game comes even more features which serve to advance its dominance as the best racing simulator. With incredibly high graphic quality, real-world tracks, immensely deep tuning and customization, and a vast amount of cars to choose from - it's evident that this game series is the best racing simulator.

II. Forza meets the standards set forth by the term Best

The term best includes being better than all others in quality or value, while also serving to be the most appropriate, useful, or helpful. [2]

In terms of literal quality, the Forza Motorsports series is above all else with incredibly detailed graphics which can be seen above. The amount of different races you can partake in ranging from drag to drift and circuit to off-road is incredibly realistic, especially when considering the fact that the games feature real-world race tracks.

In regards to being appropriate, useful, and helpful - we must consider the key term 'racing simulator' which is any game that attempts to accurately simulate auto racing, complete with real-world variables such as fuel usage, damage, tire wear and grip, and suspension settings. [3]

I've shown how Forza has an incredibly in-depth customization and real-world scenario elements. For instance, in some endurance races you must keep an eye on your tire pressure. While in races with alot of curves it'd be wise to adjust the gear ratio to focus more on short-shifting. If the race-track is bumpy or in mountainous terrains, it's recommended that you adjust your shocks so they aren't too stiff or loose. Furthermore, the game is incredibly useful in teaching players on the best paths to take in order to make turns successfully.








By having the opportunity (and in some cases, obligation) to tune your vehicles to the best standards for whatever race you are about to do, you actually gain a wonderful chance to literally learn about tuning vehicles. You are somewhat forced to learn about the difference between soft or hard shocks, short or long gear ratios, and strategies for successfully hitting any turn regardless of speed.

With all these features in mind, it's clear that the Forza Motorsports series truly covers all aspects of the terms "best" and "racing simulator".

In closing

With these arguments, I believe the resolution is affirmed.

I now return the floor to Con.

Thank you.

Sources

[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
[2] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org...


imabench

Con

1) Car Class and Customization

Conceded, since you cannot customize your own car in Mario Kart to the same extent that you can in Forza games


2) Continued improvements and expanding depth

Pro argues that Forza is the best series because it continues to add new aspects and qualities to the game, But Mario Kart does this as well.

In Mario Kart 8 alone, you now have:

1 - Anti-Gravity Vehicles
2 - New Tracks
3 - New Items
4 - New Characters, such as Baby Rosalina, who is the equivalent of Baby Elsa in the Mario Kart world.
5 - New Vehicle Combinations, where you can now choose tires, gliders, chassis, or go for the brand-new ATV for races
6 - Mario Kart TV (A multiplayer thing)

http://www.primagames.com...

So in conclusion, Mario Kart adds new and exciting content to its games just as frequently as Forza video games do


3) 'Forza meets the standards set forth by the term Best'

While the term 'best' can be related to many different aspects of a video game, one of the best ways to determine which series is the 'best' is to simply compare reviews of the game and sales of the game.

Mario Kart 8 has a metacritic score of 88, and a user score of 9.1
http://www.metacritic.com...

Forza Horizon 2, the most recent release, on the other hand, only holds a metacritic score of 86, and a user score of 8.0
http://www.metacritic.com...

So right off the bat, Mario Kart 8 is a hair better rated than Forza Horizon 2 from critics, and user wise the gap grows bigger, with actual gamers giving Mario Kart 8 a solid 9.1 out of 10 compared to just 8.0 out of 10 for Forza Horizons 2. Thats a full letter Grade difference with Mario Kart getting an A from gamers, and Forza getting a B from gamers

In terms of Aggregate scores, Mario Kart 8 also edges out Forza Horizon 2 from GameRankings by a score of 88.52% to 86.25%, the difference of about a B+ for Mario Kart 8, and a B for Forza Horizons 2


http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

So, while Forza is certainly very realistic and very real-world-like, critics and actual gamers alike both prefer Mario Kart 8 over Forza Horizons 2, if even in some cases only by a hair. That therefore makes Mario Kart 8 the 'best'

Sales wise on the other hand, its not even close. As of February 2013, the Forza games have sold over 10 million copies.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

While 10 million is a very respectable amount, Mario Kart on the other hand has sold 100 milion copies to date
http://en.wikipedia.org...

100 - Million..... Thats TEN TIMES the number of how many Forza games have been sold. Even if you cut in half the number of sales Mario Kart has made (Since Mario Kart first came out in 1992 whereas Forza didnt first come out til 2005), Mario Kart games have outsold Forza games about 5 times over. This clearly indicates that Mario Kart is the best racing simulator series ever since it is insanely more popular than Forza games are, or any other racing series for that matter.






I'll end here for now, back to you Blade
Debate Round No. 2
Blade-of-Truth

Pro

I want to thank Con for his solid round!

Rebuttals & Arguments

I. The incredible complexity of the Forza Motorsports Racing Series

I previously showed how the Forza racing series was met with immediate success as soon as the first game was launched back in 2005. On Gamerankings.com the game received a score of 93.05%, and on Metacritic it received a 92/100 - those are both A grade scores. [1] Con showed how Mario Kart 8 received a metacritic score of 88. That's important because what it shows is that the very first Forza game was actually rated higher than the latest Mario Kart game.

In fact, Forza 2 (meta-score = 90), Forza 3 ( meta-score = 92), and Forza 4 (meta-score = 91) also received higher metacritic scores than Mario Kart 8 (meta-score = 88). [2]

More so, on the reviews tab for metacritic while reading up on Mario Kart 8, you'll see reviews such as:

Hyper Magazine
Jun 28, 2014
user score - 90
"The best Mario Kart ever." [3]

If the reviewers are claiming this to be the best Mario kart ever, yet its score still doesn't surpass that of four different forza games, then the results are clear = Forza, as a series, features games rated higher than the best Mario Kart game ever.

I.A. Car Class and Customization

In this line of argumentation, I showed how the very first Forza game alone featured 231, fully-customizable cars. Then, in later games like Forza 3, we see an automobile list that offers over 500 cars, SUV's, and trucks.

Con concedes this line of argumentation due to the fact that Mario Kart does not offer the same depth in regards to amount of vehicles and the degree of customization that can be done. Thus, this argument remains standing.

I.B. Continued improvements and expanding depth

Con claims that "Mario Kart adds new and exciting content to its games just as frequently as Forza video games do." To prove this claim, he writes:

In Mario Kart 8 alone, you now have:

1 - Anti-Gravity Vehicles
2 - New Tracks
3 - New Items
4 - New Characters, such as Baby Rosalina, who is the equivalent of Baby Elsa in the Mario Kart world.
5 - New Vehicle Combinations, where you can now choose tires, gliders, chassis, or go for the brand-new ATV for races
6 - Mario Kart TV (A multiplayer thing)


Here's the problem that I'm seeing, Mario Kart's improvements do nothing to strengthen the elements of a "racing simulator" and instead, strengthen the fact that Mario Kart is actually an arcade racing game rather than a true racing simulator.

Anti-Gravity vehicles? In Con's source, they say: "you drive over specific sections of track that cause your kart to flip up its wheels and float along walls and upside down." Since when it floating along walls and upside down realistic?

Then Con continues by showing that you can choose a glider for your vehicle? Again, not very realistic.

New tracks? These would include one that you can race on in the sky. None of these tracks can compare, in terms of racing simulators, to real-time and scaled-to-size race courses that can actually be seen around the world.

New Items? I looked into what the new items were: you've got your good ole red and green shells, a piranha plant, a boomerang flower and the super horn. In reality, none of these items help expand the realistic nature that is meant to be captured in racing simulators, rather, these are nothing more than new toys for an arcade game and serve no purpose in relation to being a racing simulator. You'll never see an F1 formula racer shooting turtle shells out of his car in our real-world. Nor would a nascar driver have a piranha plant that "eats" the other race cars and drivers.

The new characters only further strengthen the fact that this is an arcade racing game rather than a real racing simulator.

Let's keep in mind that the definition for racing simulator is: the collective term for computer software (i.e. a vehicle simulation game) that attempts to accurately simulate auto racing(a racing video game), complete with real-world variables such as fuel usage, damage, tire wear and grip, and suspension settings.

What we can see clearly is this: Mario Kart is full of unrealistic features, including anti-gravity cars and weapons that include a man-eating piranha plant and characters such as gorillas (donkey Kong) who drive go-karts. This is, clearly, an arcade racing game and not a true to life racing simulator.

II. Forza meets the standards set forth by the term Best

The term best includes being better than all others in quality or value, while also serving to be the most appropriate, useful, or helpful.

While I can't argue against the fact that Mario Kart, as a series, has sold 100 million copies, whereas Forza, as a series, has sold over 10 million. It's important to keep in mind that Mario Kart had a 13 year head-start. We can't accurately predict if Forza will catch up until another 13 years has passed with Mario Kart releasing nothing at all. I'd just like the audience to keep in mind that head start Mario Kart has had and that unless Mario Kart stops making games for the next 13 years, there's no accurate way to compare the two in this regard.

Con used this point, along with the scores which I've countered earlier in Argument I, to show that Mario Kart is actually the best.

Here's the issue, this resolution doesn't solely revolve around the term 'best', but also the term 'racing simulator'. In regards to 'racing simulators', even Con concedes the fact that Forza, as a series, "has better graphics, is more realistic, and more real-world like." With the definition of 'racing simulator' shown just above in argument I. B, it's clear that Forza remains supreme as the best racing simulator series.

III. Mario Kart is a 'Kart racing series' not a 'racing simulator'

With it shown that Mario Kart isn't a true racing simulator game, then what is it?

Well, according to a wikipedia article that focuses on the history and development of racing video games:

Kart racers, popularized by (and often credited to) the Mario Kart series, are a style of racing game that introduces the ability to pick up items during the race, and use them to boost one's performance in a race, or to attack other players and hamper their progress. Like arcade racers, kart racers feature simple racing physics and imaginative environments to race in. The terminology itself was taken from go-kart racing. [4]

In an article titled 'Tips for playing Mario Kart 8' it opens by saying: "The latest installment of Nintendo' s popular kart racing franchise is upon us." once more, the term "kart racing" is utilized when describing the game itself. [5]

Let's keep digging though, because I believe this is the most important difference between our games.

Two different wikipedia pages, one for Mario Kart and one for Mario Kart 8 both say the following:

Mario Kart is a series of go-kart-style racing video games developed and published by Nintendo. [6]

Mario Kart 8 is a 2014 kart racing game and the eighth major installment in the Mario Kart series. [7]

On Nintendo' s own club website, it states: "Experience pure racing fun with the all-time classic kart racer that started it all. Get-in, sit-down, and buckle-up to experience frantic kart racing with Mario’s first ever kart racing game." [8]

It seems even the creator company, Nintendo, recognizes the game as a 'kart-racing series' rather than as a 'racing simulator'.

In closing,

I've rebutted each point raised by Con, as well as introduce a new argument showing that Mario Kart isn't actually a racing simulator, but rather a kart-racing game.

Sources

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org...(series)
[3] http://www.metacritic.com...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] http://kotaku.com...
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[7] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[8] https://club.nintendo.com...




imabench

Con

1) Scores of all Mario Kart games vs Forza games

Super Mario Kart (1992) =...................................... GameRankings = 93.60%
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Mario Kart 64 (1996) = ........................................... GameRankings = 87.01%, Metacritic = 83/100
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Mario Kart: Super Circuit (2001) = ....................... GameRankings = 91.54%, Metacritic = 93 of 100
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Mario Kart: Double DashR52; (2003) = ................ GameRankings = 87.20%, Metacritic = 87 out of 100
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Mario Kart DS (2005) = ........................................................................................... Metacritic = 91 out of 100
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Mario Kart Wii (2008) = ............................................ GameRankings = 82.07%, Metacritic = 82 out of 100
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Mario Kart 7 (2011) = ............................................... GameRankings = 85.17%, Metacritic = 85 out of 100
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Mario Kart 8 (2014) =................................................ GameRankings = 88.52%, Metacritic = 88/100
http://en.wikipedia.org...


Average score = 87.87% from Game Rankings, 87 from Metacritic



Now lets examine Forza.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Forza Motorsport (2005) = Game Rankings = 93.05%, Metacritic = 92

Forza Motorsport 2 (2007) = Game Rankings = 89..98%, Metacritic = 90

Forza Motorsport 3 (2009) = Game Rankings = 92.26%, Metacritic = 92

Forza Motorsport 4 (2011) = Game Rankings = 90.66%, Metacritic = 91

Forza Horizon (2012) = Game Rankings = 86.19%, Metacritic = 85

Forza Motorsport 5 (2013) = Game Rankings = 79.49%, Metacritic = 79

Forza Horizon 2 (2014) = Game Rankings = 87.47%, Metacritic = 86


Average score = 88.44% from Game Rankings, 87.57 from Metacritic


SO TO RECAP

Mario Kart Series = 87.87% from Game Rankings, 87 from Metacritic
Forza Series = 88.44% from Game Rankings, 87.57 from Metacritic

Wait a second....

Ah f*ck me, I guess Forza actually is better than Mario Kart

Vote most points to Pro, but at least give me source points because I just went through a LOT of research just to figure out that I'm wrong and I deserve credit for at least that >.>
Debate Round No. 3
Blade-of-Truth

Pro

My opponent, Con, has gracefully conceded the debate.

I ask that no-one penalize conduct from him since it was a concession instead of a forfeit.

Thanks for the great debate Imabench :) I look forward to our next one, whenever that may be!
imabench

Con

Brought to you by Disneys 'Frozen'
Debate Round No. 4
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ESocialBookworm 2 years ago
ESocialBookworm
rofl
Posted by Blade-of-Truth 2 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
Lmao, thanks spaceking! That's officially the most unique RFD I've ever received on a debate.

@Ima, yeah, I'll PM lannan.
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
RFD part 2
[Rarity]
You were prepared to do your best.
Had what it takes to pass the test.
All those doubts you can dismiss. Turns out you were

[Applejack,RD,Pinkie Pie,Rarity,Fluttershy,and Spike]
Prepared for this!

[Applejack]
You clearly have just what it takes.

[Pinkie Pie]
To pass a test with such high stakes.

[Fluttershy]
We knew for sure you would prevail.

[Rainbow Dash]
Since when does Twilight Sparkle ever fail?

[Applejack,RD,Pinkie Pie,Rarity,Fluttershy,and Spike]
All those doubts that you can dismiss.
Trust yourself and you cannot miss.

[Applejack,Rarity, and Pinkie Pie]
Turns out you were

[Twilight]
Turns out I was

[Rainbow Dash,Fluttershy,and Spike]
Turns out you were

[Twilight]
Turns out I was

[Rarity]
Turns out you were

[The Mane 6 and Spike]
Prepared...for this!

{Spike}
Yeah,I knew everything was going to turn out fine.
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
(reference to Blade of Truth)
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
RFD
Congratulations, You managed to kill that boss, you see...
The Grinning Colossus.
You're the hero we all wish we could be!

You made it through The Tunnel.
Then you grabbed that Fire on The Wall!
You jumped up above him.
Then you burned The Rope and save us all.
You burned The Rope and saved us all.
You burned The Rope and saved us...

Now you're a Hero.
You managed to beat the whole **** game.
We're happy you made it.
But how are you going to spend the rest of this day?
Maybe watch a video....
Maybe press refresh and start again.

Now you're a Hero.
You managed to beat the whole **** game.
We're happy you made it.
But how are you going to spend the rest of this day?
Maybe watch a video...
Maybe press refresh and start again.

Yes it's over now.
We didn't want to make a longer game...
This is it, I swear it's true.

Now you're a Hero...
You managed to beat the whole **** game.
We're happy you made it.
But how are you going to spend the rest of this day?
Maybe watch a video...
Maybe press refresh and start aga-in.
Posted by imabench 2 years ago
imabench
Leave it to Lannan to not even be able to vote right despite both sides agreeing on how points should be levied.....
Posted by Blade-of-Truth 2 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
To be fair, that 'kart-racing' argument was like an arrow in the Achilles heel... now I just have to worry about the day you return the favor should we ever debate again while on your terms! I've never done a troll debate, so maybe someday I'll let the troll king pop my cherry 0.0
Posted by imabench 2 years ago
imabench
I went through a sh**load of effort just to have it all backfire on me in the end so I figured f*ck it, i might as well concede since there's no way in sh*t I had a chance to win this if the reviews argument didnt pan out :P
Posted by Blade-of-Truth 2 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
Yeah man, lol, while reading up on Mario Kart I saw that that's what they were categorizing it as and after doing some more research I'm like "omg, I've struck gold."
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Mikal 2 years ago
Mikal
Blade-of-TruthimabenchTied
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Total points awarded:31 
Reasons for voting decision: concession
Vote Placed by Tweka 2 years ago
Tweka
Blade-of-TruthimabenchTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
Blade-of-TruthimabenchTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: In comments
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
Blade-of-TruthimabenchTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession.