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Projectid
Pro (for)
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The Contender
LikeToArgue
Con (against)
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Four contradictions about Jesus...

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after 2 votes the winner is...
Projectid
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/21/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,158 times Debate No: 37976
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (2)

 

Projectid

Pro

Four contradictions about Jesus...
... that prove the Bible is not the inspired word of God.

1.The Birth of Jesus

a) The genealogies of Joseph are flawed and contradict each other. Matthew 1:2-17 and Luke 3:23-38
aa) The Gospels of Matthew and Luke both give contradictory genealogies of Joseph in connection with 1 Chronicles 3.

b) The time that Jesus was born. Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:2
aa) Matthew and Luke disagree again, this time on when Jesus was born.

2. Matthew's Prophecy Mistake

a) Matthew 21:7 claims that Jesus entered the city on two animals. There is an explanation for this in the Old Testament (Zechariah 9:9) known to many as a blunder by Matthew. Mark, Luke, and John write that Jesus entered the city on one animal. Mark 11:7; Luke 19:35; John 12:14
aa)It may be a small insignificant point, whether one or two animals were used, but the point is if the Bible is inspired by a perfect God then there should be no mistakes or contradiction no matter how small they are.

3. The Empty Tomb

a) Who found the empty tomb? Matthew 28:1 Mark 16:1; Luke 23:55, 24:1, 24:10; John 20:1-4
aa) There are several opposing statements of who found the empty tomb.

b) Who did they find at the empty tomb? Matthew 28:2-4; Mark 16:5; Luke 24:4; John 20:4-14
aa) Again there is conflicting evidence of facts, to the point of contradiction.

4. The second coming

a) During the lifetime of the disciples.
aa) Mark 13:30, Matthew 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, and Luke 21:32 tell us that Jesus would return within the disciple's lifetime, but obviously he did not.

bb) Paul also thought Jesus would return soon: 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 KJV (Emphasis Mine)

These are just a few of the hundreds of contradictions found in the Bible. These are just a few about Jesus that I chose to use. If this is God's word to man then maybe man should reconsider its viability for instruction and belief.

First round for Con is a response, any forfeit results in a loss of debate (voters please comply). No new arguments can be presented in the last round. The Con must deal with all the points of all four topics.
LikeToArgue

Con

Points 1 and 2: These are minor errors. The Bible was inspired by a perfect God but was passed down by fallible humans, so it's NOT inerrant, but it doesn't include enough or important enough errors for it to not be able to be the infallible word of God. Even though it's got errors here and there, God still made sure it is sufficient to provide the way to salvation. Since people are fallible beings, it is almost impossible for us to completely made no errors in translating the Bible. But still, God guided us in such a way that nothing important was lost.

Point 3: The part of who find the tomb is minor, so if there were errors in one or two characters it probably won't do much to alter the whole story; as for the second part about who they saw- The first two verses was the same person described differently, the third was most likely a representation of the triune nature of God, except maybe minus the unseen Holy Spirit. The fourth one most likely went faster paced, skipped the angel part, and went on to say that they saw Jesus's body was gone.

Point 4: Mark 13:30- Jesus was talking about seeing the world coming to the end ages, not the end itself, that will happen during their generation.
Matthew 10:23- Jesus most likely meant more generally as "you won't be overtaken by your persecutors." Even if you think He means it literally, it still doesn't apply. The apostles didn't visit every single town in Israel.
Matthew 16:28- What Jesus was talking about was the transfiguration; it is a preliminary fulfillment of the second coming, something not at all uncommon in biblical prophecy.
Matthew 24:34- Again, this is talking about the beginning of end times happening, not the end itself,
Luke 21:32- Same thing, it's the end times not the end itself.

The Bible is one of the most accurate ancient books, and it is written by several different authors at different times about similar things, and has several fulfilled prophecies. It contains the word of God, who purchased lost humanity back to him, and the only thing man has to do is accept. No matter who you are, you're ultimate goal is salvation. I am defining salvation this way in this case: the "ultimate" goal forever. Every worldview provides some type of salvation, except for a few like Nihilism and Agnosticism, which are self-contradictory because they in essence deny the existence of themselves, and everyone's ultimate goal is salvation. Now, salvation seems to have to contain an infinite quality. If salvation was finite, something would go wrong, and it wouldn't be salvation, you know what I'm saying? If it was finite, there would be something higher than it, and it wouldn't be the "ultimate" goal. Now, every other worldview except for Christianity, requires YOU to work to obtain salvation. BUT, since salvation is infinite, how can man, a finite being, obtain it by works? It's simple mathematics, no finite number plus any finite number can equal infinity. Man also can't be infinite himself because that would do away with the need of getting salvation, which everyone's ultimate goal is. Only in the Bible, do we find "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). Finite can't reach infinite by efforts alone, but infinite can get finite to infinity. An infinite almighty, omnipresent, omniscient, all-loving, perfectly just, and creator God. Jesus died for mankind, and all man has to do is accept.
Debate Round No. 1
Projectid

Pro

The Con CONCEDES to arguments 1 and 2.
"These are minor errors. The Bible was inspired by a perfect God but was passed down by fallible humans, so it's NOT inerrant, but it doesn't include enough or important enough errors for it to not be able to be the infallible word of God. Even though it's got errors here and there, God still made sure it is sufficient to provide the way to salvation. Since people are fallible beings, it is almost impossible for us to completely made no errors in translating the Bible. But still, God guided us in such a way that nothing important was lost."

a) It is strange that a PERFECT God could not work around the said fallibility of humans.
b) The Con proves my case by stating that the Bible is not inerrant, which concludes the Bible is not inspired.
c) Notice the logical fallacy that God made sure the message was preserved but could not preserve its errors from occurring.
d) If one admits the bible has errors in any scope, then who is to say that it doesn't have errors in things that are considered important.
e) A perfect God would make sure that man had his word unaltered. The confusion of man and God's supposed word is a result in [a] 40,000 denominations.
f) Both the genealogies of Matthew and Luke show that Joseph was a direct descendant of King David. But if Joseph is not Jesus' father, then Joseph's genealogies are meaningless as far as Jesus is concerned, and one has to wonder why Matthew and Luke included them in their gospels.
g) The Con concedes to the donkey story as being an error, so I will not elaborate on it further.

Point 3.
CON: "The part of who find the tomb is minor, so if there were errors in one or two characters it probably won't do much to alter the whole story; as for the second part about who they saw- The first two verses was the same person described differently, the third was most likely a representation of the triune nature of God, except maybe minus the unseen Holy Spirit. The fourth one most likely went faster paced, skipped the angel part, and went on to say that they saw Jesus's body was gone."

a) This is not minor and they are significantly different. They do not agree at all, you cannot just brush off all the arguments by claiming that they are minor in error.
1)According to Matthew 28:1, only "Mary Magdalene and the other Mary."
2) According to Mark 16:1, "Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome."
3) According to Luke 23:55, 24:1 and 24:10, "the women who had come with him out of Galilee." Among these women were "Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James." Luke indicates in verse 24:10 that there were at least two others.
4) According to John 20:1-4, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb alone, saw the stone removed, ran to find Peter, and returned to the tomb with Peter and another disciple.

What did they find at the tomb?
1) Matthew 28:2-4 An angel of the Lord with an appearance like lightning was sitting on the stone that had been rolled away.
2) Mark 16:5 A young man in white a white rob was in the tomb.
3) Luke 24:4 Two men in dazzling apparel.
4) John 20:18 Just an empty tomb and some wrappings.
a) The basis of Christianity is the supposed factual truths about Christ's death burial and resurrection, so if there are errors surrounding Jesus, how can any believe anything it says about salvation?

Point 4:
CON: " Mark 13:30- Jesus was talking about seeing the world coming to the end ages, not the end itself, that will happen during their generation."

My response: Jesus said ALL these things, with in the context that would include ALL these things. Mark 13:30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. What things did Jesus talk about in the context? 24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; " 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven." This never happened in there generation.

CON: "Matthew 10:23- Jesus most likely meant more generally as "you won't be overtaken by your persecutors."

My response: That is your interpretation. Matt. 10: 23 "When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." So then what does Jesus mean when he says before the son of man comes?

CON: " Matthew 16:28- What Jesus was talking about was the transfiguration; it is a preliminary fulfillment of the second coming, something not at all uncommon in biblical prophecy."

My response: It sounds more like he is talking about his second coming. 28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Did Jesus come in his kingdom on the mount of transfiguration, I don't think so?

CON: " Matthew 24:34- Again, this is talking about the beginning of end times happening, not the end itself,
Luke 21:32- Same thing, it's the end times not the end itself."

My response: 32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[a] is near"at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

Notice that Jesus says to them, when you see ALL these things, know that it is near. This generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place. ALL these thing encompasses everything Jesus just referred too, which includes verses 29-31; 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Luke 21:32 has an interesting point on some of the things that would happen along with Jesus coming in the clouds that the generation Jesus is speaking to would see. The destruction of the temple which happened in 70 a.d., yet no Jesus returned.

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The CON makes some arguments that I will deal with now.

CON: "The Bible is one of the most accurate ancient books..."

a) Yet the CON admits it has errors.
b) Before I offer any proofs of its lack of historical validity, I would like the Con to prove his statement.

CON: " ...and it is written by several different authors at different times about similar things, and has several fulfilled prophecies"

a) Several different authors in whom we know nothing about.
b) " In the end, it seems unlikely that the uneducated, lower-class, illiterate disciples of Jesus played the decisive role in the literary compositions that have come down through history under their names." [b]
Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet, Bart D. Ehrman
c) The CON needs to give some examples of "Fulfilled Prophecies".

CON: " It contains the word of God, who purchased lost humanity back to him, and the only thing man has to do is accept."

a) God became a man so he could have himself killed to appease himself so people could believe in him so that he would not send us to hell? This makes no sense, also think about this, was there really ever a sacrifice? If Jesus is alive sitting at the right hand of the father then did God really lose anything? It was not really a sacrifice unless he is dead and stays dead.
b) Actually the Bible says we have to do more than just accept.

CON: "... because of his mercy"

a)The God of the Bible is not merciful by any means, have you read the whole thing? Slavery, mass killings, baby killing, using Satan to torment people, commanding the death of homosexuals, and so on and so on.

CON: "An infinite almighty, omnipresent, omniscient, all-loving, perfectly just, and creator God."

a) As seen above God of the Bible is far from this, and I didn't even list all the monstrosities that Christian ignore or try to explain away.

Conclusion: The CON admits Bible error, but advocates inspiration, which is illogical when claiming a perfect God. The Con's God is not all powerful, all loving, and all knowing, because if he was then the Bible would not be the source of confusion which results in division. An all powerful God could see to it that his important word to mankind would be preserved perfectly. The Bible bears no mark of inspiration of the Highest intelligent being possible.

[a] http://christianity.about.com...
[b] Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet, Bart D. Ehrman
LikeToArgue

Con

LikeToArgue forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Projectid

Pro

It is unfortunate that the CON has forfeited the debate. I was looking forward to continuing to the end. However I will not forfeit any of my rounds, so I will continue to strengthen my arguments.

As you have already read, the CON conceded to error in the Bible, then forfeited the debate for whatever reason. For a Christian to believe that the Bible consists of errors, whether small or thought to be insignificant and to still believe that the Bible is inspired does not meet logical standards. A perfect God could not possibly want to produce an imperfect revelation, it would go against his very nature. Since it turns out that the Bible is not perfect, that forcefully and unambiguously implies that the Christian God cannot possibly exist. The errors posted on this debate are just a few. One site I visited posted 475 errors/ contradictions. [a]

One of the main objections to this is the excuse that the men who wrote the scriptures were infallible and could not be expected to be perfect. We have seen the CON use this excuse already. This is not a human problem, but rather it lands upon God. If God could not see to it that his words remained perfect than he is not much of a God. 1 Timothy 3:16 states that all scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. If this is true then God is full of error and is not all powerful, and is a God of confusion, to which the Bible says that he is not in 1 Corinthians 14:33. Yet everything we see in the world today with Christianity only points to confusion, hence the vast amounts of denominations, which really means DIVIDED.

Some use the excuse that only the original texts were inspired. The only problem with that is nobody has them. Even the earliest copies (Masoretic Hebrew text, the Septuagint, and the Dead-Sea Scrolls) we have contain errors. So even the argument that only the translations we have today have errors is invalid. The thing that should give alarm to Christians today is the fact that denominations cannot even agree on how one is supposedly saved. They all can't be correct, but then, who is correct? How can anyone know they are correct when they are using a flawed, error stricken document, that they can't even agree on what it says on important issues? When I was a Christian I spent over a decade debating other Christian sects on doctrinal issues. This is one of the main reasons why I removed myself from Christianity. The problem I see with Christians is that they have a hard time looking at their only source of God (the Bible) with an unbiased view. The Bible is not clear and unambiguous.

There is no objective way of determining whether the Bible, the Koran, or any other supposed God inspired book is the true divine revelation. There is no evidence that the Bible is truly the word of God. If there is, I would love for someone to bring forth the evidence. The Christian must explicitly point out how a perfect and omnipotent God can provide a revelation which violates his very nature. All I ever get is the Christian bending over backwards to explain away the errors, contradictions, and the historical inconsistencies, and all these things are there!

Without a perfect word, the Christian does not have a perfect God, at best he (God) can be viewed in a deistic way, but that only bring up more issues to deal with. If the Bible is not the infallible word of God then how can mankind believe in Jesus, when the Bible is the only source in which you can learn about him. If the Bible was not inspired by God then it was only written by man. If that is the case then Jesus is nothing more than a man made myth along with all the other man made myths that Christians don't believe in.

Vote PRO

[a]http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...
LikeToArgue

Con

LikeToArgue forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Projectid

Pro

All arguments continued.

The Con has forfeited this debate, so vote Pro.
LikeToArgue

Con

LikeToArgue forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Projectid

Pro

All arguments continued.

The Con has forfeited this debate, so vote Pro.
LikeToArgue

Con

LikeToArgue forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Artur 3 years ago
Artur
how can you think that the bible is the word of god?
christians believe that the bible is the word of god, but I do not think that it can be supposed as the word of god. the most, it can be believed that the bible includes the word of god. includeing the word of god does not make it the word of god.

it can also not be supposed as the word of god by christians too, because they believe that trinity is the god and saying the bible is the word of god means it is the word of trinity but who has written the bible? Jesus? or Father? or holy ghost? none of them. the new testament has been written by luke matthew, mark and john, first four chapters have been written by them and the rest are the letters written to some places/persons like corinthians, chronicles, but still they are not written by god, they are also the words of humans, not god.

to be the book of somebody, at least that book needs to be created, authored by that person, it may be written bu another one, but needs to be authored and created by the person which considered to be the owner of that word.

now, Jesus/trinity is the god christians believe, and the bible is the word of god they believe.

bible is not written or created or auhtored by Jesus/trinity. Jesus is a part of god/trinity, but yet jesus has not auhtorised or written the bible/newtestament, in order to be accepted to be the word of god it needs to be written by Jesus, but the new testament JUST includes the words said by Jesus, includeing the words said by him/god does not make that book the word of his, for example: i watch president, I listen to him, I follow him, if I wirte a book including his words with the inspiration from him, will it be the book of president? or will it be the book which includes the words of president.

the new testamen or the while bible is like this, it just includes the words said by a person who is believed as a god, that is all.

result: the bible is not authored or written by god and is not the wor
Posted by Artur 3 years ago
Artur
{{{SHOULD WORD OF GOD CONTAIN ERROR? CAN GOD NOT PROTECT HIS OWN WORDS FROM ERRORS & CORRUPTION?}}}

no matter IT SHOULD or SHOLUD NOT but it does. it contains/includes errorrs, two ways can be thought:

1) if it has been sent by god, at the time god has given it, these errors were not there, with the passing of time, this words have been corrupted by people.

2) if it has not been corrupted by people and if it is the same with at the time it has been given, then GOD DOES NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ASTRONOMY, SCIENCE. and god has a problem with its memory, once he says 800000 and then he says 1 100 000

but how can you think that the bible is the word of god?
christians believe that the bible is the word of god, but I do not think that it can be supposed as the word of god. the most, it can be believed that the bible includes the word of god. includeing the word of god does not make it the word of god.

it can also not be supposed as the word of god by christians too, because they believe that trinity is the god and saying the bible is the word of god means it is the word of trinity but who has written the bible? Jesus? or Father? or holy ghost? none of them. the new testament has been written by luke matthew, mark and john, first four chapters have been written by them and the rest are the letters written to some places/persons like corinthians, chronicles, but still they are not written by god, they are also the words of humans, not god.

to be the book of somebody, at least that book needs to be created, authored by that person, it may be written bu another one, but needs to be authored and created by the person which considered to be the owner of that word.

now, Jesus/trinity is the god christians believe, and the bible is the word of god they believe.

bible is not written or created or auhtored by Jesus/trinity. Jesus is a part of god/trinity, but yet jesus has not auhtorised or written the bible/newtestament, in order to be accepted to be the
Posted by Artur 3 years ago
Artur
no matter quran has also contradictions, quran is much more logical than the bible.

christianity is absurdity when we analyse it objectively.

p.s I am not muslim, and islam has also errors but not so absurd like christianity.
Posted by Projectid 3 years ago
Projectid
I find it amusing that Muslims are so quick to jump all over the Bible when the Qur'an is full of contradictions as well. There is no perfect word of God, for any religion.
Posted by LoopsEye 3 years ago
LoopsEye
"Points 1 and 2: These are minor errors. The Bible was inspired by a perfect God but was passed down by fallible humans"

THIS WAS REALLY SHOCKING TO ME!

SHOULD WORD OF GOD CONTAIN ERROR? CAN GOD NOT PROTECT HIS OWN WORDS FROM ERRORS & CORRUPTION? Did The All Knowing & All Powerful God did not Love Mankind to Keep His Words Preserved for Mankind??
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
True Projectid, The Bible is even confused as to when Jesus supposedly ascended to Heaven after his crucifixion.
3 Days, 40 days, It really is not sure.
Funny how Joseph Smith in his reading of the Bible assumed that Jesus had enough time to go to the US, chat with some non-existent Indian tribe and return before he ascended.
LOL, parts of the bible do support this length of time.
Posted by Projectid 3 years ago
Projectid
I've only shown 4 contradictions here from the gospels, what do you do with the other 400 + in the whole Bible? Its amazing how a perfect God could not preserve his word from mankind for mankind. It's funny that they couldn't remember how many animals there Messiah rode in on. Most normal people only ride one animal at a time.
Posted by iUnderdog 3 years ago
iUnderdog
When The con says humans are why there mistakes is simply saying that the gospels, which i believe is where all of your contradictions were taken from, the gospels were just different perspectives of 4 people. Not one person wrote those books. It would be like 4 eye witness testimnoies of over 10 years. The likely hood that they remembed how many animals jesus rode is small and they probably didnt deem it that important.
Posted by Biochemistry92 3 years ago
Biochemistry92
This is a grand debate, nice job to both participants keep up the good work and try not to fluster each other too much.
Posted by CRAZ4SWAN 3 years ago
CRAZ4SWAN
here is funny contradiction in the bible:
"For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." --Matthew 12:40
now jesus crucified in friday and buried in night of the sabet (saturday begins at friday night according to jewish) so friday night, saturday day,saturday night and sunday morning the tomb was empty so jesus buried for 2 nights and 1 day and not "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

u can watch intersting debates about issues like that.. here some good debates :
https://www.youtube.com...
check ahmed deedat debating christians about - is jesus god? , Is The Bible The Word of God? , Was Jesus Christ Crucified...
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Magic8000 3 years ago
Magic8000
ProjectidLikeToArgueTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct for FF. Arguments to pro for many reasons. Con conceded on point 1 and 2. Point 3 seemed like a concession too. He appealed to fallibility of the authors with the descriptions. His response to point 4 ignores the words Jesus used, trying to come up with interpreations without defending them to be the correct one. Con furthermore contradicts himself claming the bible is one of the most accurate books, along with just stating the bible is accurate in prophecy without giving any example. Easy win for Pro.
Vote Placed by Orangatang 3 years ago
Orangatang
ProjectidLikeToArgueTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Con Likes to FF