The Instigator
Pro (for)
0 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
7 Points

Fraud In Martial Arts

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/17/2011 Category: Sports
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,662 times Debate No: 19281
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)




[For more info please visit]

TRADITIONAL - The following or belonging to the customs or ways of behaving that have continued in a group of people or society for a long time without changing.

TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS - Methods of hand to hand combat derived, and proven to be effective out of real warfare and combat, that have been passed on for generations through an unbroken chain of authentic, unaltered curricula, philosophies and/or principles.

FREE STYLE MARTIAL ARTS - Styles or schools ongoing continuous ecclectic developement(drawing from various sources, some traditional) in an all-round non-stylised manner. Often gaining recognition for their sporting prowess, and good ethics.

PSEUDO(FAKE) MARTIAL ARTS - Unproven modern 'styles' or 'systems' adopting a similar theme to traditional martial arts, yet making false claims to be unique, original, effective, or even superior. Often simply a rebranding of a traditional martial art by slightly changing it's name and tweaking techniques for false promotion.

FRAUD - To deceive others in the promotion of something known to be false or unproven, for gain.

Unfortunately FRAUD exists in martial arts in every corner of the globe!
The main objective of this page is to raise awareness in those without a fair understanding and a vulnerability to the deceit of fraudsters in the world of martial arts. This group is NOT a crusade against non-traditionalist.

There are two main types of fraud in martial arts.
1. False Ranks/Titles
2. False styles/systems
and often a combination of both.

There are many pseudo-masters in the martial arts world and many back up their claims using bogus science. They put their egos, recognition, greed and money before honesty, patience, discipline and selfless devotion. In some of these cases these teachers genuinely believe in what they are doing because of a shortcoming in their own development and understanding of authentic/traditional martial arts. So learn to detect illegitimate organizations and pseudo-masters and their false claims so you do not fall prey to them!

Some argue that each martial art is just a different way of achieving the same purpose, that no one martial art is inherently bad, and that each martial art should be respected. This politically correct statement supposedly tells us to respect all martial arts. Actually, this statement is a way for fraudulent martial artists to justify their existence. In effect, they are saying, Since I respect your art, you should respect my art, and, if you do not, then you are wrong. This makes them sound noble and makes you seem inconsiderate for not respecting their arts. Their reasoning is, since I do not criticize your (legitimate) art, you are wrong in criticizing my (illegitimate) art.

Frauds use this type of false logic all the time. Instead of providing evidence of how they are right, they criticize anyone who provides evidence of how they are wrong. Likewise, there are those who claim it is close-minded for not accepting the BS put out by so many so-called masters of the martial arts.
Martial arts can be similar to religion in that it relies on believers... but look at the examples of extremist Christianity or Islam. Just because a person sincerely believes his or her religious belief is right, it does not necessarily make the religion right. Just the same; because a pseudo-master may sincerely believe his or her martial art is legitimate, it does not mean it is a legitimate martial art. Do not confuse belief with fact!

Every student supports his or her master and most believe everything the master tells them about his or her martial art and the martial arts in general. Most students do not question the credentials of the master. If you know that your master's doctorate, degree or professor and soke status were self ordained or obtained from some bogus organizations and you are pleased with the master and the instruction you are receiving and do not care about the master's credential, then that is fine. That is your choice. You have all the facts and you made your decision based upon them. However, if you are unaware of the bogus credentials or that the master is teaching you using unsubstantiated techniques and unproven theories, then you are being ripped off.

Some nick names for pseudo-masters and styles:
Bruce Lie
Jackie Sham
SPAM (Someone Posing as A Master)
Partial arts

The Japanese term "Soke" correctly refers to a person who has inherited, and is often named by their predecessor, as the successor of a specific style of martial arts.

However, for pseudo-masters these days, becoming a soke is as simple as calling yourself one or sending a membership fee to one of the many illegitimate organizations out there! Illegitimate martial art organizations are almost as plentiful as pseudo-masters. Many of the illegitimate organizations have been started by pseudo-masters themselves but some have even been started by legitimate masters who are trying to take money from the gullible public.
"Quackery" derives from the word quacksalver (someone who boasts about his salves). Dictionaries define quack as "a charlatan" and "one who talks pretentiously without sound knowledge of the subject discussed." There are many illegitimate organizations and pseudo-masters around that fall under the definition of quack.

Unproven methods or techniques are not necessarily wrong. Although proven, methods or techniques that are consistent with established scientific concepts may be considered experimental. However, legitimate martial artists do not promote unproven procedures in the marketplace.

The number of illegitimate organizations and pseudo-masters increases each year. They are not just a nuisance, they take money from unsuspecting students, they teach techniques that may get the students injured or killed in a self-defense situation, and they advocate illegal responses to self-defense situations.

Most masters earned their status through legitimate means and they have no respect for illegitimate organizations or pseudo-masters, no matter how much good they appear to be doing for the martial arts. Just because a fraud does some good does not make him or her less a fraud. Take the mafia dons for example. They are loved by the people in their neighborhoods for their generosity. The neighbors do not know, have forgotten, or do not care that the dons got their power and wealth by illegal means; they only care what the dons are doing for them.

Admittedly, back in the day an 18yr old could have a 4th dan in kodokan judo, but it was still a system in which one had to study, learn and truly prove technical proficiency before being rewarded by a board of his seniors in a traditional martial art.


When a master or instructor starts talking as if he or she was from another world beware! Check out your organization, master, school, and instructors before you get too attached. There are no recently discovered secret techniques, only variations to age-old basic techniques that have been added by some so-called masters in attempts to justify their own, and their arts', existence.

Any western style ending in Do, Jutsu, Ryu, 'karate' or 'kempo' is simply a copy-cat of a traditional asian art and is arguably cultural theft. Regardless if they put "Norwegian" or "Somolian" or "Brazillian" in front of it. Even a widely respected modern sporting system like Brazillian Jujitsu is a variation/rebranding of an asian theme, such as old Kodokan Judo, Kito-Ryu Juijutsu or Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Juijutsu.

Examples of truly traditional non-asian martial arts/sports are;
1. Savate
2. Kampfringen
3. Capoiera
4. Krav Maga
5. Nubian Wrestling
6. Boxing
7. Dambe Boxing
8. Greco Roman Wresting
9. Calinda/Kalinda(Trinidadian stick fighting)

and now you know..

For more info please visit - Home of East London Karate Shito Ryu Karate


All of Pro's arguments rest on a few fundamental points
1) There is a specific and absolute way to teach people Martial Arts,
2) The Pro's way is the ONLY way to teach someone martial arts
3) There is no other way to teach martial arts to people, they MUST use the same rules that the company that the Pro works for operates
4) Any company that does not should be shut down because what they are doing is fraud and illegal

First of all, there is no golden tablet that says how martial arts must be taught to people, you just want the entire world to learn it according to how the organization you work for teaches it. And why is your way the only way to learn it? Why cant I use a different system of learning Martial Arts if in the end I still become a master of martial arts? (theoretically of course)

Secondly, Not everything can only be taught in one way. Here is a list of subjects/skills/arts that can be taught or learned in many different ways and with many different structures,

1) Pilots learning how to fly a plane
2) A driving instruction course teaching people how to drive
3) Teachers teaching students about history
4) Teaching someone how to paint with skill
5) Learning how to operate any one of a thousand computer games or programs
6) Learning how to play any one sport such as football
7) Learning how to play any one position in any one sport such as football
8) An astronomer learning what to look for in a telescope
9) A mechanic learning the different parts of a car
10) A Nurse conducting a number of tests on a hospital patient
11) A Comedian trying to perfect their act
12) A Coach running a standard practice for his team
13) A hunter learning how to try to find animals
14) A politician answering questions from reporters
15) A person trying to develop a response to someone else in a debate

There are a great number of things that can be taught in many ways, but there is no necessarily "correct" way to any of those things mentioned above. A different alternative to learning any of those things also is not something to frown upon and call out "FRAUD!!!" Its innovation that should be respected.

Martial Arts is just like any of those things listed above. It can be learned in many ways with no one way being the "correct" way and in the end if both styles teach the same skills. Just because different martial arts companies teach students how to learn the art differently than yours doesnt prove that your way is right,that their way is wrong, that their way qualifies as fraud, and that their way should be illegal while only your way is used.
Debate Round No. 1


JikanDojo forfeited this round.


My prior arguments still stand.....
Debate Round No. 2


JikanDojo forfeited this round.


Vote Con I suppose :P
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Double_R 4 years ago
Just getting this spam debate off the challenge page.
Posted by drafterman 4 years ago
This is a debate site, not a "promote awareness" site. In a single sentence, could you describe what your position is?

I'm not against wall-o-text per se. However, I do believe that such a wall should be an argument in support of a resolution, a resolution should should be stated simply, either as the title of the debate, or near the beginning of the first argument. Rather, it seems that your resolution (if there is one) is spread out across the entire wall, making it difficult for a person to reason out what it is. So, succintly, what is it you want to debate?
Posted by JikanDojo 4 years ago
More like promoting awareness dinokiller.. do u know anything about martial arts? If you did then you'd be aware of this debate going on for decades. I put the argument out there to see if pseudo martial artists and con-men would dare to defend their questionable practices, false claims and more or less blatant dishonesty!
Every martial arts practitioner or individuals seeking to pick up new martial arts should be made aware of the facts rather than left vulnerable to be preyed upon..
Posted by dinokiller 4 years ago
Hmmmpp, i only see you advertising here.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Chrysippus 4 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: All points to Con due to forfeit. Also, website spam.