The Instigator
Blessed-Cheese-Maker
Pro (for)
Winning
23 Points
The Contender
littlelight
Con (against)
Losing
9 Points

Free Will cannot exist as defined by Christians. Especially as relating to the Garden of Eden.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/1/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,110 times Debate No: 4872
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (8)

 

Blessed-Cheese-Maker

Pro

I contend that the use of 'free will' to excuse God of his behavior towards a majority of humanity is built on a false premise.

Christians claim that humans are innately evil based on the introduction of sin through the actions of Adam and Eve. They utilize this claim to excuse God of his plans to destroy sinful humans and submit them to hell, and call it free will.

For this debate I would like to make the following assumptions:

1. God Exists
2. Hell Exists
3. The Bible provides an accurate depiction of the Garden of Eden and the introduction of sin.

I contend that free will cannot exist as promoted by the introduction of sin, listed in Genesis, and that God himself is culpable as a result.

It will be beneficial for this debate for Con to initially define his/her definition and utility of free will as it relates to humans and God. There are varying applications of free will doctrine, and it will be helpful to discover which flavor we are dealing with right from the start.

I look forward to exploring this topic with any who accept the challenge.
littlelight

Con

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We have a different interpretation of free will than the one you have described.

1. We believe that it was in God's eternal plan for our happiness to have freedom of choice. This freedom of choice is what I will define as "Free Will."

2. We believe that Adam and Eve chose to partake of the friut of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, because they wanted to have the ability to gain knowledge and to choose good or evil. Genesis 3: 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

3. We do not believe that we will be punished for anything that Adam or Eve did. Only what we ourselves do.

3. We believe that God in his love for mankind knew that we would sin, and that all sins would have to be paid for. No unclean thing could enter his presence (In other words ... if you sin, you are unclean).
Because of this he provided a way that we could gain experience and make mistakes and yet still return to him again.

4. This plan called for a Savior. Jesus Christ was chosen to be that Savior. It would require him to live a perfect life. This is the reason that Jesus Christ was not only the Spiritual son of God but also the Physical one as well. This allowed him to have the ability to live a perfect life, and to atone (pay for) our sins.

5. Though he paid for our sins, we are not off the hook. He only pays for them if we repent of them. This means that we recogize that we have done wrong, feel remorse, and try to fix any wrong we have caused. Finally we must do the sin no more. Any less effort on our part would be a sham to what is owed Justice, and totally un just to Jesus Christ who paid for our chance to return to God with his life.

Therefore, from the beliefs I have stated above, your arguemnt that God is unjust and unkind are not true. In God's infinite mercy he provided a way for us to become like him and to return to his presence someday.

I also contend that the doctrine that all men and women will be punished for Adam and Eve's sins is false.

I would like to have the right during this debate to use the scriptures that I believe in. This not only includes the King James version of the Bible, but also the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine & Covenants.
I invite you to use these same scriptures by providing a link for you to use that will bring up all of these books of scriptures for your use.
Debate Round No. 1
Blessed-Cheese-Maker

Pro

Thanks to my opponent for accepting this topic of debate. I am at quite a disadvantage as my understanding and memory of Mormon documents is very limited, and despite reading several passages over the weekend, I cannot hope to gain a full understanding of the LDS doctrine of free will from the pearl of great price and D&Cs without years of study.

I will however continue this debate and attempt to argue using my understanding of the bible alone, with the expectation that my opponent will not agree with my contentions due to an extra biblical doctrine.

That being said, lets plow forward......

1. Freedom of choice cannot be lovingly provided without a prior knowledge of good and evil. Proper/perfect choice requires understanding and full disclosure of what is at stake. I argue that God could not have provided perfect 'freedom of choice' without first equipping Adam and Eve with a knowledge of good and evil and that God's allowance of the temptation of Eve, was an intent filled introduction of sin into the world.

2. I agree with con on this point, but he neglects to add that they were tempted by the snake to make that decision. Allowance of temptation without a foreknowledge of good verses evil is indefensible.

3. This is a slight shift from mainstream Christianity and the doctrine of inherent evil. I argue that perfection is impossible for human beings because of culpability of thought sin, as proposed by Jesus. (Matthew 5:21-48) Thus, the introduction of sin into the world disallows humans to live perfectly.

3+. The problem inherent with this argument is that God's foreknowledge of the pain and suffering that would occur as a result of our temptation and submittal to our nature as humans is unclean. God cannot have thought an impure thought, and remained pure, yet somehow he is capable of doing that, while not capable of being in the presence of the people who were allowed to behave that way? It doesn't hold with reason. God cannot think about introducing sin to the world without being complicit in it and therefore unclean.

4. The Jesus plan requires the utility of sin for fulfillment. Judas was required, as were the Romans and High Priest and Herod and every naughty character he encountered that contributed to his death on the cross. God is required by omniscience to not only know about the pain and suffering that Jesus would endure, but would be responsible for ensuring that it occurred.

5. While this is a nice way to look at it, I believe God's choice of punishment for sin negates the need for the plan in the first place. God knew that his Son would need to be horribly murdered before he chose to allow the serpent into the garden. The allowance of that temptation and the obvious result make him culpable. The fact that he then provides an 'out' through the terrible suffering and death of his perfect son, doesn't support the theory that he is loving or merciful.

Feel free to utilize pearl of great price and Doctrines and Covenants in reply.

Thank you.
littlelight

Con

I will take the arguments that Pro has brought up in his topic, Free Agency of Man, and present evidence to support my case point by point. Thank you for allowing me to use the scriptures that I esteem as being true and that are available through my church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Argument 1
1. Pro: God is accountable and basically evil because he gave us our Free Agency when we did not have a prior knowledge of good and evil

2. Con: My defense: God is not accountable because we did have a knowledge of good and evil before we came to earth. Furthermore, we had the choice to follow God's plan of free agency and freedom of choice, or to follow Lucifer's plan of compulsion.

God's purpose: Pearl of Great Price Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man

Through this statement we can see that God's purpose is to bring our eternal happiness. Eternal happiness is attained through immortality and eternal life.
Immortality and eternal life are brought about by the great plan of salvation offered to us, God's children. A plan which we freely accepted.

Doctrine and Covenants 29:35-45

Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual. And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency; And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels; And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell.

And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet— Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation.

Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed.

But, behold, I say unto you that I, the Lord God, gave unto Adam and unto his seed, that they should not die as to the temporal death, until I, the Lord God, should send forth angels to declare unto them repentance and redemption, through faith on the name of mine Only Begotten Son.

And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not; For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey

Pearl of Great Price - Chapter 3:24-28

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; (The person who was like unto God was Jesus Christ)
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. (There first estate is our life here on earth, the second estate is our immortal life which comes after death and the judgement)
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first. (The one like unto to Son of Man was Lucifer who was also a Son of God as we all are sons and daughters of God)
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

The words "Promised before the world began" show that their was a pre mortal existence and that their was a plan.

From the above scriptures we can see that we lived in Heaven with God and Jesus Christ before we came to earth. That while there, two plans were presented. One of free agency, and a way to again come back into the presence of God, and one of compulsion, which gave mankind no free agency but would force us to live God's commandments. Through God's love for us, he rejected Lucifer's plan, and we had the choice to then accept God and Jesus Christ's plan or to follow Lucifer. One third of the hosts of heaven chose to follow Lucifer. The rest of us chose to come to earth, receive a body and to be tested using our free agency.

Argument 2
Pro: God should be accountable for our ultimate misery.
Con: My argument: We alone should be held accountable because God has done everything he can to help us to return to him, and we have chosen to have free choice.

1. He provided prophets and teachers: Adam, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Peter, James, John, Paul, all of the apostles, and modern day prophets since the restoration of his gospel. Moses 6:23
See also: Ephesians 3:5,Chronicles 36: 15,

2. Prayer: God allows us to come unto him in prayer. Through the Holy Ghost we are able to communicate with him, and find out the answers to our questions, and direction in our lives. Matt. 6:6, Prov. 15:29, Chron. 7:14

3. A Savior: God allowed Jesus Christ to come to earth to teach us how to return to him again, and to provide a way for our sins to be paid for through the Holy Ghost. Book of Mormon: Alma: 34: 8-9,11,12, Mosiah 4:6-8 Bible:Isaiah 53:5, John 3:16 16 � For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

4. A Conscience: He provided each of us with a conscience which speaks to our hearts of what is right and what is wrong. BoM: Alma 42: 17-18 17 See also Heb. 9:14, Rom 2:15

5. Scriptures: He provided a way for us to be able to study his words and learn of his commandments as revealed through the prophets. See: Luke 24:45

Argument 3
Pro: Perfection is not possible because we cannot control our thoughts
Con: My argument: God judges us by the intents of our heart not our thoughts alone. See Doctrine & Cov. 6:16, Psalms: 139: 23-24, Acts 8:22.

Argument 4
Pro: Sin does not allow us to live perfectly
Con: My argument: Through repentance and the atonement sins can be paid for and thus we can attain a life unspotted by sin. Sins are then forgiven and forgotten by God and his son Jesus Christ. Bk of Mor. Moroni 6: 8 But as often as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven.
See: Bk of Mor: 2 Nephi 5-24 Matt: 3:2, 2 Cor 7-10

Argument 5
Pro: God is responsible and accountable for making Jesus suffer such a horrible death.
Con: My argument: God allowed his son to suffer and die in this way because of his love for us and because Jesus Christ chose to do this for us. John 3:16, 1 John 4:9, D&C 34:3

I have ran out of space and have no room to actually include the various scriptures I have given references to. Please read them.
Debate Round No. 2
Blessed-Cheese-Maker

Pro

Wonderful arguments all...

This is the part where we go extra biblical and to which I admit a deficiency. As this isn't an argument about the validity of Christianity verses Latter Day Saints doctrine I will attempt to argue from the Mormon perspective.... Wish me luck... ;-) Wondering whether I should reference the Great Controversy in reply, but will attempt to stick with one extra biblical document at a time...

1. My opponent references PoGP Moses 1:39 as prove God's intent in the creation of man, eternal life and immortality. However he then makes a huge leap from eternal life to eternal happiness. There is no reference provided to stipulate that God's intent was the happiness of man, only immortality. Hell doctrine also promotes immortality, but happiness has nothing do with it.

I contend that the God in Pearl of Great price actually created man for his own purpose:

Moses 1:31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose;

Here we can see that God created all worlds for his own purpose. That purpose may include the immortality of mankind, but does not at all claim to be the eternal happiness of mankind. That is assumed by his followers.

Doctrines and Covenants and predestination.

"And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency; And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels; And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell."

The end of this passage makes it very clear that the God of Joseph Smith prepared Hell for the devil and his angels prior to their existence. I contend that this predestination is immoral as he created Lucifer and the angels knowing in advance that they would be thrust down, because of his own notion of justice into torture. Predestination shuts the door on a defense of the morality of God. I urge the reader to take this important point into account.

Doctrines and Covenants and the doctrine of balance.

"And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet"

This statement clearly indicates that God intended for man, not only to be tempted by the devil, but to fail in that temptation, in order to fully discern bitter from sweet. Which supports the fact that Adam and Eve did NOT have a knowledge of Good or Evil prior to submitting to temptation. Counter to my opponents claim: "we did have a knowledge of good and evil before we came to earth."

Doctrines and Covenants and PoGP supports my contention that God predestined sin and suffering and death and even hell, which negates free will as all of those things were created by God for his own purpose. Moses 1:31..."For mine own purpose have I made these things."

If God has wise purpose in allowing Adam and Eve to be Tempted and fail in order to know bitter from sweet, Free will cannot exist.

Perhaps we should seek clarity in Solomon Spalding's book The Manuscript Found?(1761-1816)

Just Kidding, low blow, I rescind the last statement ;-)

Augment 2 God's culpability

Con argues that "God has done everything he can to help us to return to him, and we have chosen to have free choice."

I argue that if God exists, tangible and measurable revelation of his existence is within his power, (as seen in OT accounts) and that he chooses not to do that in this day and age for a majority of mankind for his own purpose. So God does NOT do everything within his power to help us return to him. It is more than possible to reveal yourself to others without forcing their will. Free will would remain intact, and all of humanity would have an educated choice to make bereft of subjectivity and misinformation. God's inaction in providing this to us, supports my contention that he is culpable for our bad decisions.

Conscience would not exist without a knowledge of sin and the ability to discern bitter from sweet.

Argument 3
"God judges us by the intents of our heart not our thoughts alone." Unfortunately the intents of one's heart can be very good, yet have very evil consequence. This point doesn't negate my statement about thought sin disallowing man to live perfectly, thus sinless and free of God's judgement.

Argument 4

The doctrine that Jesus sacrifice enables us to live without sin and avoid God's notion of justice doesn't absolve God of the introduction of sin into the world. It simply shows that 'His Own purpose' included the murder of his son.

Argument 5
"God allowed his son to suffer and die in this way because of his love for us and because Jesus Christ chose to do this for us."

Not according to predestination. God, knowing the outcome of his creation and introduction of Lucifer to mankind, chose not only to create Hell, but also the necessity of mankind to be saved through the sacrifice of his son.

In conclusion I would like to thank my opponent for the opportunity to explore this subject.

I urge the reader to read the verses con referenced and note that not one of them addresses the culpability of God as it relates to predestination and His foreknowledge of things to come. I argue that the reason the Bible, the BoM, D&C and PoGP don't address the issue of free will and God's omniscience directly, is because my initial argument is accurate and Free will CANNOT coexist with the Omniscience of God as promoted by Christians and LDS and thus built on a false premise.

Thank you all for your time, I know these discussions can be exhaustive to read, I sure know they are to write ;-)
littlelight

Con

The debate on free agency has become one on many other subjects as well, such as: Foreordination, Justice & Mercy, God's eternal purposes, his motives, and if he is accountable. In this final round of debate I will answer to the best of my ability the topics that my opponent has brought up in round 2. Keep in mind that as in a court of law the evidence of proof is necessary for both persons defending their arguments.

After looking over the points presented by my opponent have tried to condense them down into 4 main questions:

1. By providing us a way to attain immortality and eternal life, is God's intent for us to have happiness?
2. Is God evil, or immoral because of the principle of foreordination?
3. Do we have free agency if God knows what our ultimate outcome will be?
4. Has God done all he can for us to help us chose good over evil? Even if he has not revealed himself to us in person.

I urge my opponent and those following this debate to look up the following passages of scripture. They are extremely important to gain an understanding of the questions and issues brought up in this debate.
Book of Mormon: Alma 42: 1-28

Argument # 1
In round 2 my opponent pointed out that just because God's purpose was to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, this did not mean that God's purpose was to provide a way for us to be happy.

Alma 42:8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness

The "great plan of happiness" as stated in this verse indicates that God's plan was created for us to give us eternal happiness. From this scripture one can plainly see that God loves us and that one of his main purposes is our eternal happiness.

Argument # 2 God is moral because of the doctrine of foreordination or predestination.
Foreordination is different that predestination: Is God a loving God if he allows foreordination?

Quote from Apostle Niel A. Maxwell...The idea of predestination is unscriptural. Not only does it deny what Paul and other prophets taught about agency, but it also limits God's love to only a select few. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith stated emphatically that "no person is ever predestined to salvation or damnation. Every person has free agency." Similarly, the Book of Mormon prophet Jacob taught that "one being is as precious in God's sight as the other." (Jacob 2:21.)

The problem is one of definition and interpretation. Many Christian churches regard the words predestine and foreordain as synonymous. However, our modern-day Church leaders have distinguished between them. Predestination is not a part of Latter-day Saint doctrine; foreordination is.

The Prophet Joseph Smith clearly taught that individuals were foreordained in pre mortality to certain missions in mortality. "Every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very purpose in the Grand Council in Heaven before this world was," he wrote.
Several scriptures refer to foreordination; they tell us that Abraham was "chosen" before he was born (Abr. 3:23) and that Jeremiah was "ordained … a prophet unto the nations" before his birth. (Jer. 1:5.) The Book of Mormon says that others were also "called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works." (Alma 13:3.)

Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote that "the Lord foreordained chosen spirit children in pre-existence and assigned them to come to earth at particular times and places so that they might aid in furthering his divine will. These pre-existence appointments, made ‘according to the foreknowledge of God the Father' (1 Pet. 1:2), simply designated certain individuals to perform missions which the Lord in his wisdom knew they had the talent and capacities to do."

Argument # 3 God is accountable, culpable because we did not know in advance about freedom of choice and about good and evil, thus he consigned us to be miserable because we all sin.

In round 2 evidence was presented through the scriptures that we lived in a pre mortal existence with God, and we chose to come to earth and to gain knowledge, chose good or evil, and to have to opportunity to achieve eternal life with God again. Let's go forward from that point.

"In some ways, our second estate, in relationship to our first estate, is like agreeing in advance to surgery. Then the anesthetic of forgetfulness settles in upon us. Just as doctors do not de-anesthetize a patient in the midst of authorized surgery to ask him again if the surgery should be continued, so, after divine tutoring, we agreed to come here and to submit ourselves to certain experiences; it was an irrevocable decision." Quote from Niel A Maxwell - Apostle in the LDS church.

Justice & Mercy
"There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
"And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated" (D&C 130:20–21)

Alma Chapter 42:22-25 states: But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. 23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

Argument # 4 God has not done all he can for us because he has not revealed himself to us.

God does reveal himself to us in many different ways as stated in my arguments in round 2. Please refer to them. In addition, "the Spirit teaches us the truth of things as they really are, and really will be (Jacob 4:13)

He has also appeared to Adam, Moses, and other prophets and in 1820 to Joseph Smith.

Moroni 10: 4-6 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

In conclusion, I contend & believe I have proven that God is not culpable for giving us free agency or free will because we chose to come to earth. We wanted the right to choose for ourselves. That we knew the consequences and rewards that would come from our choices. That God is good and kind and loves us. In fact, God loved us so much that he allowed his son to die for us. This sacrifice was done willingly by Jesus Christ who loves us also. l John 4: 10-11 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

That he has provided a way for us to be able to return to his presence again through repentance and the atonement. That even though God knows all things, and some people are foreordained to carry out his work, that he has not predestined us to either heaven nor hell. That God has done all things necessary and prudent for us to choose the good and to gain eternal life.

Thank you for an interesting debate!
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by littlelight 9 years ago
littlelight
Blessed Cheese Maker, you can't blame a girl for trying. By the way, I bet if you visited aN L.D.S. church and just popped into a sacrament meeting you would find it different than you expect. My ward or congregation, I know would welcome you with open arms and hearts. If you want to take a little bet on that it might be fun.

P.S. Don't think too harshly of those missionaries. They're just doing there best and for 19-21 year old's it's not too bad. You are very knowledgeable, and probably scared them to death. My son's on a mission and I would hate to think of anyone holding a grudge against him. By the way, it's pretty obvious that the dust must have not settled or maybe wasn't accepted by God since you are again in another debate with a Mormon!
Posted by littlelight 9 years ago
littlelight
Blessed Cheese Maker, you can't blame a girl for trying. By the way, I bet if you visited aN L.D.S. church and just popped into a sacrament meeting you would find it different than you expect. My ward or congregation, I know would welcome you with open arms and hearts. If you want to take a little bet on that it might be fun.

P.S. Don't think too harshly of those missionaries. They're just doing there best and for 19-21 year old's it's not too bad. You are very knowledgeable, and probably scared them to death. My son's on a mission and I would hate to think of anyone holding a grudge against him.
Posted by Blessed-Cheese-Maker 9 years ago
Blessed-Cheese-Maker
Thanks little light

I have read Alma 42. I appreciate the offer, but feel I should disclose that the elders from Kaysville's fourth ward shook the dust from their heels on my doorstep back in 2000.

As a result I am very familiar with LDS notions of Justice and Mercy, as is my wife and oldest son.

I can tell that you have a good heart and a humanitarian spirit, which is beneficial to mankind and thank you for your honest attempts at helping me with LDS doctrine, however I have found that the vast majority of LDS followers are quite unhappy and paranoid about their friends and neighbors.

I found that the religion tends to lead folks to condemn one another, under the guise of helping them. This is true for most religions, and isn't specific to the LDS faith.

Thanks again, but I wanted to be upfront and forthwith by disclosing where I am coming from before you spend too much effort trying to help me.
Posted by Zerosmelt 9 years ago
Zerosmelt
Free will cannot exist as defined by anything as the very concept makes no sense.
Posted by littlelight 9 years ago
littlelight
Blessed Cheese Maker. Thank You for allowing me to learn through research for this debate. Did you read Alma chapter 42 yet? It answers alot of questions. Also, I wouldn't mind sharing thoughts with you about mercy and justice. I believe it puts a new light on the motives of God.
Posted by Blessed-Cheese-Maker 9 years ago
Blessed-Cheese-Maker
Great debate little light, thanks.

I don't think I will ever grasp God's provision of atonement for a situation He himself created. I guess that is a part of submission to God.
Posted by Blessed-Cheese-Maker 9 years ago
Blessed-Cheese-Maker
I was hoping for your participation CiRro, I am thoroughly enjoying our other debate...

Looks as if I am going to brush up on the Pearl of Great Price however....

Its been a while so this one could get messy.
Posted by Puck 9 years ago
Puck
Ephesians 1: 4-5

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Posted by CiRrO 9 years ago
CiRrO
lol, now your doing a free will debate. I'm tempted to take it, but I'm already doing your other debate. So, I'll let someone else take this one. If nobody takes it in a day, I'll be back. Good luck ^^
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Vote Placed by thisoneguy 8 years ago
thisoneguy
Blessed-Cheese-MakerlittlelightTied
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Vote Placed by Blessed-Cheese-Maker 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Zerosmelt 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by snicker_911 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by flower 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by CoupdeGrace 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Puck 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by littlelight 9 years ago
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