The Instigator
JustinChains
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
heatfran
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Freedom = Chaos

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
JustinChains
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/16/2011 Category: Politics
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,223 times Debate No: 15983
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (2)

 

JustinChains

Pro

Today I was thinking about the world's problem's and how one might fix them. And then it dawned on me that most of the problems in the world come from freedom. Either in obtaining it, using it, or keeping it from being taken.

The more freedom people have, the less rules there are...

The less rules there are, the less you can organize a system...

With no system, there can be no order...

With no order, there can be only chaos...

With Chaos, comes problems.

After going through this in my head, I can only come to the conclusion that...

More freedom = More chaos = More problems

I would like to hear an opposing view to my stance on this.

- Justin Chains -
heatfran

Con

This is an interesting idea. Thank you for posting this debate.

I must disagree though. While you are right about the no order=chaos thing, I must argue that without rights, there would be no reason to live. We would just walk to work at exactly 6:00 A.M., work in our grey factory until 7:00 P.M., walk home, eat bread and water for dinner, then go to bed, waiting to repeat this schedule tomorrow. Without freedom, there is nothing to look forward to. Nothing to live for. The world will always have problems, but taking away the the things we live for will just create new problems, even some of the old ones were solved.

If you think about it, if the world were in chaos, there would be no laws, therefore no one would be doing anything wrong.
I realize this is not the way to go, but I would rather live in an anarchist society than one that is without freedom.
Debate Round No. 1
JustinChains

Pro

I believe in complete freedom, but I am expanding my mental barriers to look at this topic from a different point of view.This topic makes me question what it is that the human race is working towards.

On the one hand...

A problem is something that disrupts the efficiency of a system, or order.

Since problems lead to disorder or chaos, it is in my conclusion that...

A problem unsolved = Chaos or disorder = Less chance of stability and/or survival

With each problem we solve, we must enforce more law in an effort to keep the problem from happening again. Which in turn takes away more freedom.

So...

A problem solved = Less freedom

With each law not being enforced, this creates more disorder or chaos, which in turn creates more freedom.

Chaos or disorder = Freedom

My point is this...

What is the human races end goal here? Freedom and Chaos or Law and Order?

If it is freedom humans want...

Then why are we striving for more Law and Order and why does it rule the world?
heatfran

Con

Again, you have some very interesting points.

Unfortunately, we live in a society that tries to focus itself on the individual, not the common good. People strive for laws that benefit them, and do not consider the condition of others. This is why we create new laws, because everyone has their own idea of a perfect society. I don't believe we are actually striving for anything, I think we are just playing it by ear. Both order and chaos have their advantages, but it is almost impossible to get the best of both worlds. Freedom is a necessity in order for a society to function, but so is order. This is where the conflict arises. Different people see the line between chaos and order at different places, so humans will never as a whole be completely happy with the set of laws that we have, that's why we keep creating new laws.
Debate Round No. 2
JustinChains

Pro

"Different people see the line between chaos and order at different places"

I agree and I feel that this is completely true. This line is what motivates people to create the laws and also what motivates people to break them.

I think it would be a wise goal of the human race to build our world around the understanding of this line, as opposed to doing what we are doing now, which is building our world around tipping the scale in one direction or the other.

Have locations (cities, towns, countries, etc.) that are completely free and are governed by complete chaos, as long as the majority of the people that live there want it that way... It would be healthy.

Have locations that are governed by complete Law and Order, as long as the majority of the people want it that way it will be healthy.

And have places that are governed by orderly chaos, which picks and chooses what is right and wrong based on majority, as we live in now.

People need these line choices.
heatfran

Con

That was a very interesting point of view.

This is mainly what we have in play in today's world, just look at all the different countries. We have China, which is a freedom repressed communist country. Then there is America, a liberal filled democratic countries. Then we have Saudi Arabia, a country that is completely controlled by religion. The only problem is, if someone wants to live in a different country, it is usually not allowed in the more repressive countries. I know this is a dated example, but take East and West Germany. East Berlin built the Berlin wall to keep it's residents from escaping to the free West Berlin. The same is true today, just with different circumstances. If a citizen of China tries to apply for citizenship in America, they had better have a good reason, or it will be rejected. We have different types of societies already in existence, the only problem we have is the ability to move from one to another freely.
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Silver_Falcon 5 years ago
Silver_Falcon
Hey Justin, want to do this debate with someone that argues against your point directly? I don't think your opponent made a as strong case for freedom as he could.
I would argue freedom =/= chaos. I would even argue that government brings chaos into society.
Posted by JustinChains 5 years ago
JustinChains
I feel that different rules or lack of rules could apply efficiently, as long as the citizens understood that only in the specified area does the specified set of rules or lack of rules apply. The government that controls and enforces this understanding would therefor just act as the enforcer and protector of this new form of government and it's borders. I think this would give the people a freedom that we don't have today.

Say you wanted build a city where there is no speed limit, no drinking or smoking age, no rules on drugs, etc.

People could go and live there freely and know that these rules only apply to that area.

It would be a revised version of how America has broken up it's borders into states. Except that every state would have full control over creating and enforcing it's own rules. And the larger governing body would have no control over these rules. Only the responsibility of keeping this system in order amongst it's internal borders. This would mean heavily enforcing borders around these "states", so that every person passing through each border would be inspected in correspondence with the adjoining state's rule system. This would and could only be accomplished efficiently by building along all border lines, like a modern day version of a heavily patrolled great wall of China.

I know there might be a few bugs in my system that could be worked out more efficiently with more time and thought on the matter, but I think you get the context of my idea pretty well from the above explanation.

- Justin Chains -
Posted by heatfran 5 years ago
heatfran
I mostly agree, except there is a few things that don't make much sense.
A country, by definition, is an area of civilization that has one, main body of government. You could not have a democratic and communist government in the same nation. even if it was tried, one would eventually claim independence from the other. In our world, it is all about power, sadly. Take the United States Civil War for example. The south claimed independence from the north, even though the only difference in government between the two was the outlook on slavery. Two diverse societies cannot coexist under the same rule, so the best option is to leave the world as it is.
Posted by JustinChains 5 years ago
JustinChains
I agree with your final round and all other rounds. I only suggest that we would change our focus as a human race to re-evaluate what are doing. Or at the very least, maybe bring a new vision to the world through a leading example.

What if a country decided to build 2 cities on each stance. 2 governed by complete chaos, 2 governed by complete order, and 2 governed by an orderly chaos. I think this would give all people in that nation the most efficient choice. Through this method I would come to this conclusion...

Complete freedom(small scale) + Complete Order(small scale) + (freedom/Order)(small scale)

= Complete freedom and Complete Order (large scale)

What do you think?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Brenavia 5 years ago
Brenavia
JustinChainsheatfranTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Have to go with darkkermit on this one.
Vote Placed by darkkermit 5 years ago
darkkermit
JustinChainsheatfranTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: JustinChains put out a theory that freedom=chaos and heatfran did not even try to refute it. Instead the debate just ended completely off topic