The Instigator
lalachic54
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
The_Scapegoat_bleats
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Frozen Is A Good Example For Young Ladies

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
The_Scapegoat_bleats
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/25/2014 Category: Movies
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,268 times Debate No: 49892
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

lalachic54

Pro

Frozen is a good example for young ladies, specifically teenage girls. I"m not saying this because I am one, but because it shows that family comes before anything else and that just because you find a guy that shares a lot of interests with you, it doesn"t mean that he is the right one for you. If you want to take this challenge, go ahead and take it.
The_Scapegoat_bleats

Con

I strongly disagree with your resolution.
Elaborate your case further.

Expect my reply.
Debate Round No. 1
lalachic54

Pro

Many young girls are saying that they "are in love with the love of their life" when they haven"t had enough experience in life to understand what love is. At the very least, the girl and the said guy can be just friends. What if they make some wrong choices and the girl ends up ruining her life because she thought she had found Mr. Right at a young age? Another example as to how the movie "Frozen" is a good movie is because it shows that family is the most important thing in anybody"s life. Even though we live in a society where there are more families becoming separated, the movie shows people that despite their actions, a family"s love for each other can overcome anything. In the song "Fixer Upper," one of the trolls said that "People make bad choices if they"re mad, or scared, or stressed. Throw a little love their way and you"ll bring out their best." In another part of the movie, Kristoff said this: "You mean to tell me you got engaged to someone you just met that day?! Have you have a meal with him yet? What if you hate the way he eats? What if you hate the way he picks his nose...and eats it?" He is stating that maybe Hans, Anna"s "true love", may not be what she expects and that she should reconsider marrying him.
The_Scapegoat_bleats

Con

I summarize:

1. You claim the movie "Frozen" is a good example because it shows that "love at first sight" possibly leads to a bad choice for a relationship.

2. You claim the movie sets a good example because "family comes before anything else" because a family's love for each other can overcome anything.


I will now present my argument why the film sets a bad example for young ladies, and will close this round with a rebuttal of your arguments.

Opening argument:

The movie "Frozen" propagates a misogynistic, sexist role model and depicts family life as abusive.

Elsa, one of the main protagonists of the film, has great power. Because of an accident - when she was just a child - she willingly locks herself away and allows her sister, whose memory has been wiped of the incident - to be locked up as well.
This is clearly child abuse, since her sister Anna is suffering greatly from the situation.

When the parents die, another three years pass in which time both sisters continue accepting their suffering, thus propagating the idea that young ladies have to obey, no matter how much they suffer from it.
When Elsa is crowned, she has an argument with her sister and loses control over her power, causing her to flee the castle and cast an eternal winter on the land, while building an ice castle, celebrating her "freedom" in yet another remote castle ("Let it go!"), while dressing in a fancy dress and putting on make-up.

This is not a good example for young ladies. It's a bad cliché that powerful women are dangerous and reckless, even merciless, and that you can only be "free" by becoming a fashion model.
Being a model is a bad ideal. We know how the pressure on models and pageant contestants drives them into eating disorders, drug abuse and more [1]. Elsa shows characteristics of mental and physical disorders, in particular depression (locking herself away for YEARS) and Anorexia nervosa (her waist is thinner than her head), setting a really bad example for young ladies to follow.

Women in this film are permanently abused. Anna's memories are removed, the children are locked away, even after they are orphaned, Anna is denied permission to marry whomever she pleases, Elsa is driven from her home by prejudice against her powers, she is later beaten unconscious, Anna is denied help by her lover as both sisters are instrumentalized by men in order to allow those access to the throne.
And even if everything turns out fine in the end, when the film is through, we've seen two girls suffering, suffering and suffering, while the men didn't suffer nearly as much.
That's the message of this film: women need to suffer before everything becomes magically wonderful.

Well, if we look at reality, indeed women are often discriminated and underprivileged, they are abused as sex symbols by the pornography industry, they are subjected to unrealistic beauty ideals (in the case of Frozen with the even worse pressure of being independent and powerful in ADDITION to being physically "perfect") - but in the end: is there really always a magical future where everybody's happy?

The film propagates the illusion that if you suffer enough, somehow the love of your family will someday make it all better.

But this is a lie, even within the film: it's the parents who don't help Anna master her powers in time. It's they who lock the sisters away and then head out to sea where they die, leaving the children unattended. That's the love of a family? If the parents had really loved the children, they would have shared this exile with the children. But instead they don't even reach out to Elsa who's locked herself up. The parents allow their own child to be consumed by guilt over an ACCIDENT that luckily didn't have a lasting impression. Is that LOVE?

This film is only a vehicle to show us suffering girls, which induces protective instincts in the audience, causing everybody to be sympathetic with the two girls, disregarding that none of this would have been necessary, had the parents lived up to their responsibility of teaching Elsa control over her powers. Funnily enough, in the end "love" is the secret to controlling the power, which is irrefutable proof that Elsa was given too little love by her parents as a child, even before the accident with Anna.

This movie shows us a defunct family life, full of false guilt and depression. It is indeed a bad example.


Rebuttal:

1. Love at first sight

It is true that our first love is rarely "the one". The first love often ends in a painful break-up.
And it is good that way, I say. Frozen propagates the idea that there still IS "the right one" out there, but that is an unrealistic, romantic dream that leads to young ladies having false expectations about relationships.
We are all entitled to making mistakes. The experience of our first lovelornness is an important one, for how will we ever cherish love if we never experienced how much it hurts to lose it?
How will we ever learn how to identify a suitable partner if we are not allowed to learn from our own mistakes?

It is important that at some point in our life we have the freedom to pick a wrong partner for the wrong reasons, so that we might grow up and find a mature, lasting love later on.
So it is not per se a bad thing to fall blindly in love with the wrong person. This mistake will make us stronger and teach us the wisdom to make a better pick next time.

On the other hand, sitting around waiting for "the one" will not teach anyone anything. It will only lead to depression, the fear of finally being left on the shelf and ultimately making a hasty decision (probably a wrong one) to pick some guy before it's too late, which will THEN turn out to be the same mistake we could have made years before.

The problem is this: nobody knows the future. We only know the past. And from that we can learn. So, what do we learn from the past? This: even before the movie "Frozen", young couples found each other and lived happily ever after, while other young couples broke up. Children are born nonetheless. So, this makes it likely that things worked as they were supposed to before this film, and will hopefully continue to do so, regardless.

We're all entitled to our mistakes. It's called freedom of choice. Who are we to decide which early love is "right" and which is not BEFOREHAND? We can't. Only the eventual failure can prove a love wrong. The heart wants what the heart wants. It is vulnerable, but each wound makes it so much stronger.

2. Family goes above anything else

If that is the message of the film, the film is immature and childish, and definitely not a good guide for young LADIES.

The famous and influential psychologist Prof. Lawrence Kohlberg has established six phases of moral development.
"Family above all" falls into class three: Follow family, group rules [2].
This phase is attributed to children of early school age, way before the teenage years.
Average humans are expected to develop to level 5 throughout their early adulthood: "create new laws", based on Utilitarian rules that serve the benefit of ALL.
Level four is still above level three, and entails strict obedience towards law and order.

So basically, if we take "Frozen" as an example, we'd be disregarding LAW in favour of the family. Society would fall apart if we all acted that selfishly.
And quite frankly, it even sounds like a Mafia slogan.

And which family, might I ask? If family REALLY went above all in that film, which are we talking about? Where do the parents fit in?
How does locking two innocent girls away for years "for their best interest" fit in?
If family went above all, why would the parents hide their daughter away because of her powers? Would a real family not be supportive of her exceptional talent?


No, this film is a bad example. A mockery of family life and love in general.


[1]: http://link.springer.com...
[2]: http://www.socialphy.com...
Debate Round No. 2
lalachic54

Pro

"This is not a good example for young ladies. It's a bad clich" that powerful women are dangerous and reckless, even merciless, and that you can only be "free" by becoming a fashion model.
Being a model is a bad ideal. We know how the pressure on models and pageant contestants drives them into eating disorders, drug abuse and more [1]. Elsa shows characteristics of mental and physical disorders, in particular depression (locking herself away for YEARS) and Anorexia nervosa (her waist is thinner than her head), setting a really bad example for young ladies to follow."
I don't agree with your statement. Elsa did not "lock herself away for years", she was separated from her sister and any contact with the outside world because her parents didn't want her to hurt anybody around her. The parents were trying to help her get control of her powers before allowing her to have more contact with people.

Women in the film weren't PERMANENTLY abused. Sure, Anna's memories were "removed". But you obviously didn't pay attention to the part where the Grandfather Troll said, "Don't worry, I leave the fun." Therefore, he is implying that he simply changed the memories that had magic. He left the good times.
Elsa was driven from her home, but because she was scared. The only person who judged her was the duke of Wesleton. He called Elsa a "witch" when she really wasn't. To add to the part where she is later beaten, you are also incorrect. The chandelier in her ice castle collapsed and while she was running away, a piece of it knocked her out.

Another statement that I would like to add to in your rebuttal is where you said "pressure of being independent and powerful in ADDITION to being physically 'perfect' ". In the song, "Let It Go," Elsa said "That perfect girl is gone."
The entire song is about a young lady trying to find herself. She is finally accepting that she isn't like other people and she never will be. I'm sure that sometime in the past, you were insecure and that you made some bad choices. But you got over it and accepted yourself in time. I really don't see the difference between that and the song "Let It Go."

"How does locking two innocent girls away for years "for their best interest" fit in?
If family went above all, why would the parents hide their daughter away because of her powers? Would a real family not be supportive of her exceptional talent?"

When the King and Queen locked the gates, it was their choice. In another movie, the hit film "Shrek", Fiona was locked away for "her own good" by her father. It pained him to do so, but he still did it.
The_Scapegoat_bleats

Con

"Elsa did not "lock herself away for years", she was separated from her sister and any contact with the outside world because her parents didn't want her to hurt anybody around her."

"Do you want to build a snowman?"

Anna:
Elsa?
(Knocking: Knock, knock, knock, knock, knock, knock)
Do you wanna build a snowman?
Come on lets go and play
I never see you anymore
Come out the door
It's like you've gone away-
We used to be best buddies
And now we're not
I wish you would tell me why!-
Do you wanna build a snowman?
It doesn't have to be a snowman.

Elsa:
Go away, Anna


from: http://www.metrolyrics.com...

This is from the film. It's obvious that it's Elsa's choice to isolate herself from her sister. She would be allowed to play with Anna, but she doesn't because of her false guilt and resulting depression. Note that Anna doesn't say "Mommy and Daddy don't want us to play! Let's sneak out and build a snowman!" The parents have nothing to do with Elsa's choice. She even closes the door on Anna.
May I remind you that after the death of their parents, Elsa STILL rejects Elsa, even though her younger sister begs her for support? So, if it had been the parents' wish, Elsa clearly would have rekindled her relationship with Anna after their death.

"The parents were trying to help her get control of her powers before allowing her to have more contact with people."
How? Do they get a teacher for her? No. All they do is give her gloves that don't help and basically tell Elsa to get a hold of herself when they leave.
And they were NEVER supportive of her when she was small: NOBODY knows of Elsa's powers. That means that her parents kept those a secret from the very first moment she exhibited this extraordinary talent. Again, her lack of control PROVES that Elsa didn't get enough (or any) love in her early childhood, because LOVE is the KEY to controlling the power. Elsa has no control, so she has not experienced love.

"Anna's memories were "removed". But you obviously didn't pay attention to the part where the Grandfather Troll said, "Don't worry, I leave the fun." Therefore, he is implying that he simply changed the memories that had magic. He left the good times."

Taking memories away without consent is a form of rape. Who has the right to decide which memories are "good" or "bad"? We learn from memories, so taking away bad memories means robbing you of important experiences. In this particular case, Anna somehow really thought that her sister Elsa would never harm her, so she was careless when she tried to convince Elsa to come back with her, which resulted in Elsa mortally wounding her, as the trolls had warned so many years ago. Had Anna known of her first injury, she would have been more careful and would not have been hurt. So, the memory of Elsa hurting her would obviously have saved her, making it a beneficial, hence "good" memory.
If, as you say, the troll had the power to CHANGE her memory, he should have changed it to: Elsa hit her over the head with an icicle accidentally. That would have given her a proper warning. But instead, she was robbed of a vital piece of information.
Also, this lack of information drove the sisters apart and weakened the love Elsa would have needed to control her powers: had Anna known of the incident, she could have FORGIVEN Elsa, or at least understood why Elsa was withdrawing from her. But with the memory gone, she was left in doubt and insecurity for years.

Which, by the way, means that Anna was PERMANENTLY abused from early childhood: lied to, left in the dark, plagued with the vague guilt that she had somehow wronged her sister. That's emotional abuse at its worst.


"Elsa was driven from her home, but because she was scared."
While the Duke was the first to cry out, all people were clearly afraid of her. After all the years in which her parents kept her powers secret (including the time BEFORE she hurt Anna), she had any reason to be scared: scared of being killed - which is exactly what the bad guys are trying to achieve several times in the film. Nobody comes to her support. Clearly, the people are prejudiced Nobody cheers: "Wow, our Queen is a superhero!" They all turn away in horror. That drives her away.

"The chandelier in her ice castle collapsed and while she was running away, a piece of it knocked her out."
And why did it fall? It was hit by an assassin's crossbow bolt and aimed for her. This is called "indirect perpetration". With the intent to kill her, this comes down to attempted murder. Blaming it on the chandelier is totally misleading. She is beaten unconscious by a piece of ice due to a killer shooting a deadly bolt at her. Sounds pretty abusive.

" In the song, "Let It Go," Elsa said "That perfect girl is gone."
The entire song is about a young lady trying to find herself. She is finally accepting that she isn't like other people and she never will be."
I do not deny the words. You misinterpret the song, though.
Elsa SAYS she's no longer the perfect girl. And how does she achieve this? By donning fashionable clothes and putting on heavy make-up, turning into a fashion model, exactly the "perfect girl" she allegedly isn't. And what "perfect girl" was she before? She was a depressive, crying, scared nervous wreck. Certainly no "perfect girl".
So, the song is about her letting go, but she lets go of her true self, isolating herself from every other living being, locking herself away in exactly the same isolation which she spent the last years in. Where's the change? How is she "free"? She's just locked herself away further away in a bigger room, and is now wearing fancy dresses.
This song is the nervous breakdown of a depressive young woman losing it.

What exactly are your ad-hominem remarks supposed to achieve? "I'm sure that sometime in the past, you were insecure and that you made some bad choices. But you got over it and accepted yourself in time."
You don't know me and I have nothing in common with a depressive child/teenager. And even if I did, we are not discussing my life, this is about the film.

"When the King and Queen locked the gates, it was their choice."
So you concede to the abuse.

"Neglect

Neglect is any action — or inaction — on the part of a caregiver that causes a child physical or emotional harm. For example, withholding food, warmth in cold weather, or proper housing is considered neglectful. Basically, anything that interferes with a child's growth and development constitutes neglect. This also includes:

  • failing to provide medical care when a child is injured or sick
  • locking a child in a closet or room
  • placing a child in a dangerous situation that could lead to physical injury or death

Abandonment is a type of neglect. This occurs when a child is left alone for extended periods of time or suffers serious harm because no one was looking after him or her.

Emotional Abuse

Emotional abuse or psychological abuse is a pattern of behavior that has negative effects on a child's emotional development and sense of self-worth. Ignoring a child or withholding love, support, or guidance is considered emotional abuse. So is threatening, terrorizing, belittling, or constantly criticizing a child." from: http://kidshealth.org...#

I have already proved that the parents were withholding love, and you admit she was locked away. So you admit the child abuse and there's no use further denying it.

Other than that, how does the ill choice of Fiona's father justify the ill choice of Elsa's parents in "Frozen"?

There can be no doubt about it: "Frozen"depicts family as abusive, and you defending them is a good example of how damaging this film is to the image of a wholesome and healthy family life. You mistake evident abuse for love after seeing this film.

That's sad, and I would advise you to watch better movies and keep away from this distortive depiction of a loving, caring family.







Debate Round No. 3
lalachic54

Pro

lalachic54 forfeited this round.
The_Scapegoat_bleats

Con

Pity my opponent forfeited this round.

I extend all arguments.

My opponent has done almost nothing to counter any of my points, so my argument still stands.

I wish my opponent all the best and hope she is well.

Thanks all!
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by The_Scapegoat_bleats 2 years ago
The_Scapegoat_bleats
@Defro:
I think my feminist mom has washed off on me a little. But honestly, this is the worst Disney film this side of Oliver & Co.
Posted by Defro 2 years ago
Defro
@The_Scapegoat_bleats
Interesting interpretation of the movie.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Defro 2 years ago
Defro
lalachic54The_Scapegoat_bleatsTied
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Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Con presented sound arguments that Pro did not effectively refute against. Due to Pro's forfeit, conduct agoes to Con, who also gets points for sources.