The Instigator
imabench
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
ntwining
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Frozen is better than Star Wars 7

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
imabench
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/22/2016 Category: Movies
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 865 times Debate No: 85406
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (2)

 

imabench

Pro

For my 598th debate, I shall argue that the 2013 movie 'Frozen' is overall better than 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens'. Con shall argue that Star Wars 7 is 'overall 'better than Frozen. Overall in this case is defined as 'in a majority of cases', meaning that one movie doesnt have to be better than the other in every measurable means of comparison, it merely has to be better in a majority of those measurable means that are brought up in the debate

3 rounds
24 hours between rounds
Character limit of 5000 characters per round

(DEBATE WILL FEATURE SPOILERS)

Arguments:



1) Villain: Kylo Ren vs Hans

The villain that gets the most screen time in Star Wars 7 far and away is Kylo Ren, who has been received very poorly by fans of the franchise for being a radical departure of the type of villain normally featured in Star Wars films. Kylo Ren acts childish, throws fits of rage almost regularly, and is comparatively weak compared to past villains of the Star Wars franchise...... In the movie, Kylo Ren also even admits that he still feels the light side of the force within him, albeit minor, but this raises questions if Kylo Ren will even stay as a bad guy when Star Wars 8 and 9 rolls around.

Hans from Frozen on the other hand is the villain that nobody saw coming the first time around. People believed him to actually be a good guy for the majority of the movie, who, in the biggest twist in an animated Disney movie ever, is revealed to be a villain in the final act after he tries to kill off both Anna and Elsa to seize Arendelle. The surprise of Hans being revealed as a villain shows how Hans is cunning, sneaky, and unquestionably evil, making him a far better designed villain than Kylo Ren.

Frozen is therefore a better movie than Star Wars 7 in terms of qualities of the main villain most featured.



2) Plotline

Star Wars 7 is pretty much a movie that is purely meant to re-open up the Star Wars franchise for future sequels and spin-offs, as evidenced by how many questions still remain by the end of the movie that are deliberately left unanswered. For example

- The movie deliberately introduces Snoke as the Kylo's trainer who decides to complete Kylo's training but does not specify what that entails or where it will even happen
- The movie deliberately specifies how Rey's parents left her on that planet but fails to specify what happened to her parents, why they did what they did, etc.
- The movie completely fails to explain how the small orange lady in the film acquired Luke Skywalker's lightsaber
- The movie sets up this elaborate conspiracy that Luke Skywalker went into hiding yet left clues for how to find him without explaining why he did so
- The movie fails to explain how BB-8 acquired the piece of the map in the first place
- The movie fails to explain how or why Rey has such a gift with the force that she was completely unaware of in the past.
- The movie fails to explain how the First Order arose out of the ashes of the Empire

There are several questions that Star Wars 7 deliberately raises but then leaves unresolved, in a clear attempt to have those questions answered in later installments..... Frozen on the other hand doesnt raise as many questions only to leave them unresolved. Frozen from the beginning was meant to be a 'whole' movie, not just something meant to set up a franchise.

Frozen is a better movie than Star Wars 7 in terms of having a complete plot.



3) Character development

Frozen takes place over a span of about 15 years showing the development of Anna, Elsa, and Kristoff, while also explaining things like how Kristoff came to be raised by trolls and what happened to Anna and Elsa's parents (which Star Wars fails to do with Rey). It explains how Elsa came to dear her powers while growing up, before she is shown to accept them by the end of the movie. Kristoff learns to enjoy the company of other people rather than prefer being alone, and its explained how Anna's memory was altered to explain how she didnt know Elsa had powers.

Star Wars however takes place over a brief amount of time that fails to show the origins of ANY character in the film and show their subsequent development. We don't see anything about Finn's training or how he was raised, we see nothing to properly explain how Rey ended up in her situation, we see nothing about what caused Kylo Ren to become the villain he turned out to be, and we also are given no flashbacks of what other past characters experienced in the past that pushed them to become the characters they are by the end of the film. Star Wars simply speeds through this part of the movie by having the candidates drop hints here and there about what the characters think happened, but we are not shown anything about their past as definite proof, since the movie is meant more to open up the franchise to sequels rather then tell a complete story in one film.

Frozen is therefore better than Star Wars in terms of actual character development
ntwining

Con

"Kylo Ren, who has been received very poorly by fans"
Not sure where that came from. Everyone I've talked to loved him and think that he is going to be a very interesting new character to the franchise.

"and is comparatively weak compared to past villains of the Star Wars franchise"
Umm... Not sure if you saw the part of the movie where he stopped the blaster fire, held the laser in mid-air for few minutes and then let it crash into the building and it exploded.

"In the movie, Kylo Ren also even admits that he still feels the light side of the force within him, albeit minor, but this raises questions if Kylo Ren will even stay as a bad guy when Star Wars 8 and 9 rolls around."
Also not sure if you saw the part where he said he was being "torn apart" and the he KILLED HAN SOLO... Also if you werent aware DARTH FREAKING VADER also had the light side in him. Remember in Episode VI when Luke took of his mask.

"The movie deliberately introduces Snoke as the Kylo's trainer who decides to complete Kylo's training but does not specify what that entails or where it will even happen."
That is absolutely correct. It is never said when or where it will happen. But, you werent aware there are going to be two more movies that PROBABLY will explain this. I think we cant judge small details like that yet until we have seen 8 and 9.

"The movie deliberately specifies how Rey's parents left her on that planet but fails to specify what happened to her parents, why they did what they did, etc."
That is absolutely correct. But, you werent aware there are going to be two more movies that PROBABLY will explain this. I think we cant judge small details like that yet until we have seen 8 and 9.

" The movie completely fails to explain how the small orange lady in the film acquired Luke Skywalker's lightsaber"
That is absolutely correct. But, you werent aware there are going to be two more movies that PROBABLY will explain this. I think we cant judge small details like that yet until we have seen 8 and 9.

"The movie fails to explain how BB-8 acquired the piece of the map in the first place"
Remember the old dude at the beginning of the movie who gave the thing to Po. That was the map. We will probably learn more about this in Episode 8 and 9.

"The movie fails to explain how the First Order arose out of the ashes of the Empire"
That is absolutely correct. But, you werent aware there are going to be two more movies that PROBABLY will explain this. I think we cant judge small details like that yet until we have seen 8 and 9.

"Star Wars however takes place over a brief amount of time that fails to show the origins of ANY character in the film and show their subsequent development. We don't see anything about Finn's training or how he was raised, we see nothing to properly explain how Rey ended up in her situation, we see nothing about what caused Kylo Ren to become the villain he turned out to be, and we also are given no flashbacks of what other past characters experienced in the past that pushed them to become the characters they are by the end of the film. Star Wars simply speeds through this part of the movie by having the candidates drop hints here and there about what the characters think happened, but we are not shown anything about their past as definite proof, since the movie is meant more to open up the franchise to sequels rather then tell a complete story in one film."
That is absolutely correct. But, you werent aware there are going to be two more movies that PROBABLY will explain this. I think we cant judge small details like that yet until we have seen 8 and 9.

I rest my case.
Debate Round No. 1
imabench

Pro

1) Villain

Examples of negative reaction/reception to Kylo Ren:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
http://www.9news.com...
http://www.cnet.com...
http://www.bustle.com...

^ Some of those even have tidbits of fans doubting Kylo Ren's evilness in the first place

There is a great deal of people who think that Kylo Ren is a weak villain for Star Wars 7 compared to Hans from Frozen



"Not sure if you saw the part of the movie where he stopped the blaster fire, held the laser in mid-air for few minutes and then let it crash into the building and it exploded"

The statement was that Kylo Ren was COMPARATIVELY weaker in respect to other Sith villains featured in past Star Wars movies, not that he was weak in general.

I actually did another debate about Kylo Ren being the weakest Sith Lord ( http://www.debate.org... ) and won that debate



"Also if you werent aware DARTH FREAKING VADER also had the light side in him"

Kylo Ren though is not 'Darth freaking Vader', he's a fanboy of Vader who is still weaker than any other Sith Lord before him, and who is not as great of a villain for the Star Wars franchise as Hans is in Frozen either, thus making Frozen a better movie in terms of villains



2 + 3) Plotline and Character Development

Each and every one of Con's answers for points made in these arguments was:

"That is absolutely correct. But, you weren't aware there are going to be two more movies that PROBABLY will explain this. I think we cant judge small details like that yet until we have seen 8 and 9."

The debate is about whether or not Frozen is a better story than Star Wars 7, not Star Wars 7 and Star Wars 8 and Star Wars 9 all put together..... Star Wars 7 is a very incomplete story despite being 30 minutes LONGER than Frozen in the first place, so every argument con has responded to with this reply is essentially a concession.

The simple truth is that Star Wars 7 is an incomplete movie meant to open the door for sequels and spinoffs to be made. Frozen though comes full circle plot-wise in substantially less time than it does for Star Wars 7, which makes Frozen a better movie in terms of plot and character development.



Since Con has declined to make additional arguments apart from the ones I introduced in round 1, or even dispute any arguments made in favor of Frozen, I'll introduce a few more arguments in the character space I have left:



4) Overabundance of characters

Frozen essentially has 6 main characters by the end of the movie.... Elsa, Anna, Kristoff, Olaf, Hans, and some Trolls... Sven is really just an extension of Kristoff since Sven cant talk who is almost always with Kristoff anyways, so Sven doesnt count

Star Wars on the other hand has 1) Finn, 2) Rey, 3) Chewbacca, 4) Leia, 5) Han Solo, 6) Snoke, 7) Kylo Ren, 8) Luke Skywalker, 9) The X-Wing pilot Poe, 10) C3PO R2D2 and BB8 who combine to get significant screen time as well, and 11) Captain Phasma + General Hux who are high ranking members of the First Order expected to be featured in subsequent movies.....

So even being generous and counting multiple characters lumped together as a full character, Star Wars 7 has nearly twice as many characters vying for screen time than Frozen does, many of whom are still shrouded in a tremendous deal of mystery and unanswered questions posed by the movie in the first place..... It's essentially an Avengers movie that didn't shine a light on some of the characters in previous installments, leaving a lot of unanswered questions for moviegoers going into the movie and leaving it.

The over-abundance of characters in Star Wars 7 makes it overall worse than Frozen since it further compounds the non-existent character development and the incomplete plotline for the movie



5) Originality

Star Wars 7 is a glitzed up version of Star Wars 4 where a 'chosen one' (Luke -> Rey) Who under the guide of a wise old man (Obi-Wan ->Han Solo) teams up with an outsider (Han Solo -> Finn) and a rebel leader (Leia -> Leia) to use the force to fight against a masked villain (Vader -> Kylo) who is the right hand man of a supreme leader of the dark side (Sidious -> Snoke) and operates a megaweapon that gets blown up in the end (Death Star -> Starkiller base) but not before it demonstrates its power (Alderaan -> Hosnian System)

Star Wars 7 is a fancy remake of Star Wars 4, whereas Frozen was actually an original movie, making Frozen better in terms of originality.
ntwining

Con

ntwining forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
ntwining

Con

ntwining forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Jonan4tor 1 year ago
Jonan4tor
mh...sounds like the media needs 2 chill out about that song. their just frozen on it
Posted by Reformist 1 year ago
Reformist
WHy do you like frozen so much

All I remember is that damn song
Posted by Jonan4tor 1 year ago
Jonan4tor
ik,ik. but i just mostly winged it.
(for all of u none batman fans,she made a batman reference,and i made a joke off of it.)
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
you are the hero this world needs AND deserves <3
Posted by Jonan4tor 1 year ago
Jonan4tor
That pun probably froze you in your tracks
Posted by Jonan4tor 1 year ago
Jonan4tor
Hey,i dont want any cold comments on my puns
Posted by Jonan4tor 1 year ago
Jonan4tor
That puns gave you the chills,didnt it?
Posted by Jonan4tor 1 year ago
Jonan4tor
icee we are having a debate about frozen

BA DUM PTSS
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
You could also make the case that box office performance and reception are partially due to the built in fanbase that star wars has as a franchise, meaning it made money and got fans because its part of a series that has a lot of fans, whereas Frozen started completely from scratch.... Also the box office cleared out to let Star Wars go unopposed against other major movies, whereas Frozen had to compete with a Hunger Games movie from the beginning.
Posted by 9spaceking 1 year ago
9spaceking
just because a movie has critical audience rating better than another, that does NOT mean it is better. I know some movies that are admitted by most to be underrated. I know there was one point where IMDB had a movie that was absolutely really low, but that was mostly ranked down by the popular due to its historical inaccuracy.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by dynamicduodebaters 1 year ago
dynamicduodebaters
imabenchntwiningTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Now I must say that it was fairly close until the FF. Sorry con.
Vote Placed by 2-D 1 year ago
2-D
imabenchntwiningTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Con offered a rebuttal to Pro's negative arguments against Sw7 but did not respond to positive arguments for Frozen, an obvious drop. Pro responded with counter arguments and Con did not. Dropped arguments and conduct for ff. I can give more detail on request. Conduct and arguments to Pro.