The Instigator
TAHRAQUE
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
BennyW
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

GOD or GODS? THE BIBLE SAYS...GODS.

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Started: 9/3/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 544 times Debate No: 18167
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

TAHRAQUE

Pro

For Christians...

Prove to me that there is One and Only One GOD
and I want specific verses

I will prove to you that there are lots of GODS in the Bible.

and I mean, the GODS of Christians...
BennyW

Con

I accept this debate, and since my opponent was unclear as to whether or not I should start the first round I will just get right into my arguments.

In Exodus 3:14 God tell Moses “I am that I am”. [1]

The confusion of there being more than one god comes from a misunderstanding of the trinity. The word trinity does not appear in the Bible but the concept is certainly there.

Jesus said I and the father are one. This suggests that Jesus is God but it also suggests that he is not a different God than the Father. [2]

In Genesis god says Let us go and make man in our own image. This plural does not suggest multiple gods but multiple persons of the same god. He also uses the same plural in regard to the Tower of Babel. [3] [4]

During the Baptism of Christ we see the best example of the trinity all three person together. [5]

The first Commandment is thou shalt have no other gods before me. This shows that he is the only God and if they had worshiped another god it would have angered him. [6]

Ephesians says One Lord, one faith, one baptism. You can’t get much clearer than that, that there is only one God. [7]

I look forward to hearing my opponent’s argument on the subject.

1 http://www.biblegateway.com...

2 http://www.biblegateway.com...

3 http://www.biblegateway.com...

4 http://www.biblegateway.com...

5 http://www.biblegateway.com...

6 http://www.biblegateway.com...

7 http://www.biblegateway.com...;


Debate Round No. 1
TAHRAQUE

Pro

TAHRAQUE forfeited this round.
BennyW

Con

This is disappointing, I was hoping for a better debate than this. As my opponent has not presented an argument he has not shown how the Bible talks about there being more than one God.
Debate Round No. 2
TAHRAQUE

Pro

TAHRAQUE forfeited this round.
BennyW

Con

Once again my opponent has failed to present an argument.
Debate Round No. 3
TAHRAQUE

Pro

I DO APOLOGIZE FOR MY OPPONENT TO THE DELAY, THERE HAS BEEN AN EMERGENCY EVENT I HAVE TO ATTEND.
HERE IS MY SIDE:

"In Exodus 3:14 God tell Moses "I am that I am". [1]
The confusion of there being more than one god comes from a misunderstanding of the trinity. The word trinity does not appear in the Bible but the concept is certainly there."

-------Deut 6:4.
At Mark 13:32, Jesus Christ said: "But of that day or that hour [of God's coming execution of judgment] no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." But if the Father and the Son are coequal, how could the Son be ignorant of things the Father knows? ‘Jesus had two natures,' some will answer. ‘Here he is speaking as a man.' And, yet, even if that were so, what about the "Holy Ghost"? If it is the third person of the Trinity, why does it not know? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. And the "Holy Ghost" is part of the Trinitarian chain.--------

"Jesus said I and the father are one. This suggests that Jesus is God but it also suggests that he is not a different God than the Father. [2]"

-------This statement does not suggest either a dual or triune deity. What John's Jesus meant by the word hen ("one") becomes clear from his prayer concerning the apostles: "That they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen]" (John 17:22), which means that they should be united in agreement with one another as he (Jesus) is always united in agreement with God, as stated: "I [Jesus] always do the things that are pleasing to Him [God]" (John 8:29).
There is thus no implication that Jesus and God, or the twelve apostles are to be considered as of one essence.

Let us look at John 10:30 "I (Jesus) and the Father are One." This verse is severely misunderstood and is taken out of context, because beginning at verse John 10:23 we read (in the context of 10:30) about Jesus talking to the Jews. In verse John 10:28-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are One."

These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus.

Also let us look at verse John 17:20-22 "That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in
them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE". In this verse, the same word ONE used, the Greek, HEN is used, not only to describe Jesus and the Father but to describe Jesus, the Father and eleven of the twelve disciples of Jesus. So here if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods.-----------

"In Genesis god says Let us go and make man in our own image. This plural does not suggest multiple gods but multiple persons of the same god. He also uses the same plural in regard to the Tower of Babel. [3] [4]

During the Baptism of Christ we see the best example of the trinity all three person together. [5]"

------------John 17: 3 - And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Bottom line, the 3-in-one monster conjured up by the Trinity is an unknowable being. The Trinity is confusion, and that is NOT of God, but of the devil.(See 1 Cor. 14: 33)

Honest theologians and priests will even admit that there is no way to "understand" the Trinity. They will argue that the mortal mind cannot grasp it but only "comprehend" some of it, but even that is a stretch when the scripture states that our very eternal life depends on KNOWING Him.

I also believe that if there was one doctrine that we should fully understand, it SHOULD be the one about the character and nature of God, and that he'd be a mean son of a gun to give us no way of understanding this very basic and important aspect of the gospel.

If you know anything about the history of the Nicean council, you also know that the framers of this gibberish themselves actually knew that what they were outlining was incomprehensible. That leads you to another problematic question... If the theologian/writers of the Trinity KNEW it was beyond the understanding of men. Then, as MEN, how do they know that they got it right in the first place?

That leads us to the final part of the argument. The lack of spiritual evidence that this doctrine is accepted by God... ---------------

"The first Commandment is thou shalt have no other gods before me. This shows that he is the only God and if they had worshiped another god it would have angered him. [6]
Ephesians says One Lord, one faith, one baptism. You can't get much clearer than that, that there is only one God. [7]"

----------IT MIGHT BE WELL IF THE TERM "TRINITY" WERE EMPLOYED TO DESIGNATE THE
THREEFOLD SELF-MANIFESTATION OF GOD. THE FIRST CHRISTIANS HAD WITH ST.
PAUL A SAVING EXPERIENCE OF THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND OF THE
LOVE OF GOD AND OF THE COMMUNION OF THE HOLY GHOST, AND THE THEOLOGIANS
WERE LED, INEVITABLY, TO EFFECT AN ALLIANCE BETWEEN THE GOSPEL OF THEIR
SALVATION AND THE SPECULATIVE PHILOSOPHY, AND MORE ESPECIALLY THE
PLATONISM, IN WHICH THEY HAD BEEN TRAINED, WHILE, IN MAKING ROOM FOR THE
CHRISTIAN GOSPEL WITHIN THE WORLD -- NOT ALTOGETHER HOSPITABLE -- OF THE
GREEK PHILOSOPHY, THEY FOUND THEMSELVES TRANSLATING THEIR EMPIRICAL
KNOWLEDGE OF GOD -- THE GOD OF THE FATHER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST -- INTO
A DOCTRINE OF DIVERSITY AND MULTIPLICITY, AS DISTINGUISHED FROM MERELY
ABSTRACT UNIT, WITHIN THE DIVINE NATURE ITSELF. IN OTHER WORDS, IN
THINKING OUT THE TRINITY THEY ARRIVED AT THE TRINITY. THE GREATEST AND
MOST INFLUENTIAL OF THE CHRISTIAN FATHERS, ORIGEN, ATHANASIUS, BASIL, THE
GREGORIES, AUGUSTINE, ALL ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THE DIVINE NATURE REMAINED FOR
THEM A MYSTERY.

IN THE SYSTEM OF CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY, THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY DOES
NOT USUALLY FIT WELL INTO THE GENERAL DOCTRINE OF GOD, AND OFTEN BEARS THE
CHARACTER OF A DOCTRINE APART.

IN SHORT, GOD HIMSELF IS THE FATHER REVEALED; GOD HIMSELF IS THE
CHRIST REVEALING; GOD HIMSELF IS THE HOLY SPIRIT ABIDING. IT SHOULD BE
REMEMBERED THAT THERE WAS NO WORD "PERSON" IN THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK-
SPEAKING THEOLOGIANS WHO SHAPED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY TO THE
AUTHORITATIVE FORM IT ASSUMED IN THE NICEAN-CONSTANTINOPOLITAN CREED.
THROUGH ORIGEN'S INFLUENCE IT CAME TO BE EMPLOYED IN THE THEOLOGICAL
TERMINOLOGY AS THE DESIGNATION OF A MEMBER OF THE TRINITY.-----------
BennyW

Con

BennyW forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
TAHRAQUE

Pro

TAHRAQUE forfeited this round.
BennyW

Con

I thank my opponent for responding and I will address his points

At Mark 13:32, Jesus Christ said: "But of that day or that hour [of God's coming execution of judgment] no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." But if the Father and the Son are coequal, how could the Son be ignorant of things the Father knows? ‘Jesus had two natures,' some will answer. ‘Here he is speaking as a man.' And, yet, even if that were so, what about the "Holy Ghost"? If it is the third person of the Trinity, why does it not know? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. And the "Holy Ghost" is part of the Trinitarian chain.--------

Jesus also was not omnipresent because he had to truly become man. This does not mean that he was not God but that he was limiting his power in his capacity as a man. Each person of God has a different function. I don’t like analogies because nothing captures it perfectly but it is similar to different parts in a body, but like I said it is far from perfect. The father and son are coequal but that doesn’t mean they all serve the same purpose.

Bottom line, the 3-in-one monster conjured up by the Trinity is an unknowable being. The Trinity is confusion, and that is NOT of God, but of the devil.(See 1 Cor. 14: 33)

In a sense the concept is unknowable to our comprehension but that is only due to the limit of our minds There is a lot we as humans don’t understand. We can know him without understanding how his essence works. Can you know someone without knowing fully how their body works or how they think? I would hope so.

The members of the council may not have been able to fully understand the concept but they saw the connections in the scriptures that lead them to this view.
1 Corinthians 14:33 simply states that God is a God of order and not chaos and the trinity is not chaotic, it is just beyond comprehension there is a difference.

Definitions
Chaos-a state of utter confusion or disorder; a total lack oforganization or order. [1]
Incomprehensible-impossible to understand or comprehend; unintelligible. [2]

These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus.

There should be no question as John 8:58 reaffirms the trinity “JJesus said to them,"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was,I am." [3] Jesus would not say that if he was not the same as the father, how could he a man have been there before Abraham? The Father is greater than all in glory as for one thing Jesus has been limited by his humanity while at the same time retaining his person hood of God. The Holy Spirit has his own function as well.

True there was no word person to designate the parts of God but we needed a word that would begin to identify the different parts. It is not contradictory to the nature of God in the Bible because as I have pointed out, on multiple occasions in the Bible God says he is the only true God Jesus affirms this yet calls himself God. Therefore Jesus is the same as the father in as much as they are one being yet different “persons”. The best explanation of this can be found in the Athanasian Creed. [4] I know, it was a council that came up with this description, but they were only using what could be found in the scriptures to describe this nature of God that is so confusing.

IN SHORT, GOD HIMSELF IS THE FATHER REVEALED; GOD HIMSELF IS THE
CHRIST REVEALING; GOD HIMSELF IS THE HOLY SPIRIT ABIDING.

I don’t see how this is a refutation of what I said. In fact my opponent seems to have refuted his own claim with this assertion. The claim that there was no word Person really doesn’t mean much when you consider that there are many concepts that can be inferred that are not expressly stated, we do this in philosophy and historic reading all the time.

My opponent has not proved how the Bible says that there are in fact multiple Gods and not in fact one God. He has only placed his own assumptions onto what he thinks by his own understanding would makes sense for God to be. There cannot be multiple Gods and at the same time have God say "You shall have no other Gods". This is also not an argument about contradictions. I urge the voters to vote con.

1 http://dictionary.reference.com...
2 http://dictionary.reference.com...
3 http://www.biblegateway.com...;
4 http://www.apostle.org...


Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Man-is-good 2 years ago
Man-is-good
Or that, despite the fact that there are false 'gods' (which are demons) and that Christianity is monotheistic, 'THE BIBLE SAYS...GODS."
Posted by Man-is-good 2 years ago
Man-is-good
Pro will regret instigating this debate if he thinks the Trinity=gods...
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by wierdman 2 years ago
wierdman
TAHRAQUEBennyWTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: All my votes go to con, because he was the only one to participate as well as argue.