The Instigator
Aric
Pro (for)
Winning
13 Points
The Contender
Republican95
Con (against)
Losing
7 Points

GTA San Andreas is a more educational video game than any video game labeled as educational.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Aric
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/28/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 7,326 times Debate No: 8802
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (4)

 

Aric

Pro

Alright, let's skip the formalities and debate. By the way, in case you don't know, GTA stands for Grand Theft Auto.

A) GTA San Andreas teaches kids the value of a good diet and exercise. The main character, CJ, has three customizable skills that pertain to this argument. The "fat" skill, the "muscle" skill, and the "stamina" skill. All of these skills are represented by a horizontal bar graph on the HUD.

The fat skill shows how much fat CJ has on his body. CJ can up his fat stat by eating unhealthy meals at various fast food restaurants. (2) At these restaurants, the player has the choice of buying CJ an unhealthy item, such as the Clucking Huge Meal, or buying a healthy food item, such as a salad. If CJ consumes a salad, CJ does not gain any fat. If CJ consumes the unhealthy items, his fat stat goes up. If CJ's fat stat gets too high, CJ runs the risk of a heart attack, which will kill the player on the spot, randomly, and without warning. This can be very frustrating during game play, as the player might have to replay missions. Also, another side effect of a too high fat stat is lethargy. The fatter CJ is, the less CJ can do physically. For instance, CJ will not be able to run as fast or jump as high. However, if a player does become too fat, he can lose the weight by going for a jog, or bike riding.

CJ's muscle stat can be upped by lifting weights at the gym. When CJ's muscle stat goes up, he will become more powerful in combat. This shows children how being fat is good and how being muscular is beneficial.

CJ's stamina stat is also important. By doing endurance workouts, such as jogging or swimming, CJ can up his stamina stat. When CJ does this, he will be able to run faster, which is of course beneficial. Doing these workouts also lowers CJ's fat, as previously stated. This shows kids how working out and exercising is good for your health.

(1) http://gta.wikia.com... (In reference to the stats)

(2) http://gta.wikia.com... (In reference to the fast food restaurants)

B) Grand theft auto San Andreas shows the value of a good nights sleep. (3) CJ can buy out safe houses. Inside these safe houses are save points. At a save point, you may take a six hour nap. The game's clock will advance by six hours, and you will wake up with full health. This shows that sleeping is good for you to children. And every child should know the value of a good nights sleep.

(3) http://gta.wikia.com...

C) GTA San Andreas illustrates that drugs are bad in a way that children may describe as cool. (4) CJ constantly makes comments about how bad drugs are, and the majority of the storyline is cleaning up the streets and stopping the drug trade. GTA San Andreas also shows how bad drugs can be for you, as in the case of Big Bear and B Dup. B Dup got Big Bear to use drugs. Now Big Bear is no longer big. In fact, he is now a skinny and frail slave to his addiction. This can be frightening to children, and it will surely show them that drugs are bad.

(4) http://gta.wikia.com...

D) Teaches geometry with pool. (5) We all know that pool is just one large math equation. Nuff said here.

(5) http://gta.wikia.com...

E) It teaches children map skills. Players will constantly have to be going from point A to point B. Player will need to use a map to accomplish these tasks. (6)

(6) http://gta.wikia.com...

No educational game has ever been able to teach children all these skills. Not to mention, these skills are incredibly important. It's better to learn how to say no to drugs than do pointless and repetitive educational tasks.

Thank you to whoever excepts this debate.

Definitions:

Kid, child, etc: A person ages 6-12.
Republican95

Con

Before attacking my opponent's case I have one question that will establish a case of my own.

Is it educational for children to learn how to kill innocent people (the game makes it very graphic too), how to enlist the services of a prostitute, or carjack individuals?

I'd much rather have a society full of dumb people than smart criminals.

==On to My Opponent's Case==

"A) GTA San Andreas teaches kids the value of a good diet and exercise."

Unfortunately, its a video game and video games are one of the leading causes of child obesity in the United States. And, it really doesn't matter if children know what is healthy or not (most children I know do not know how to cook) because it their parents who will have to ultimately make the decision what they teach their children in regards to nutrition.

"B) Grand theft auto San Andreas shows the value of a good nights sleep."

Unfortunately, actually going to sleep would be a lot more beneficial than playing a video game that "teaches" you how to sleep.

"C) GTA San Andreas illustrates that drugs are bad in a way that children may describe as cool."

The game also says that the drug industry in San Andreas is perhaps a multimillion dollar industry. Kids want to be rich when they grow up, this game teachers kids that one way to get rich is to sell crack.

"D) Teaches geometry with pool."

Then why not go out and buy a pool game? It'd be just like GTA minus all the whores and drugs and killing and stuff...

"E) It teaches children map skills."

Google Maps also teachers children map skills, without the drugs and whores and killing and stuff...
Debate Round No. 1
Aric

Pro

Sadly, it appears my opponent has missed the purpose of this debate.

"Is it educational for children to learn how to kill innocent people (the game makes it very graphic too), how to enlist the services of a prostitute, or carjack individuals?"

I am afraid I do not have to answer the question. The debate is not over the moral aspects of GTA San Andreas, but over the educational aspects.

"Unfortunately, its a video game and video games are one of the leading causes of child obesity in the United States."

I urge the voters not to take this into account, as my opponent has not a cited a source, therefore, video games very may well be beneficial to a child's health. Until my opponent can back his words up with fact, we must move on.

"And, it really doesn't matter if children know what is healthy or not (most children I know do not know how to cook) because it their parents who will have to ultimately make the decision what they teach their children in regards to nutrition."

At least it would give the child the knowledge to ask their parents for healthy alternatives such as salads. And if nothing else, at least the children will be able to retain the information for when they are on their own in life.

"Unfortunately, actually going to sleep would be a lot more beneficial than playing a video game that "teaches" you how to sleep."

http://www.webmd.com...

This game would provide the gentle prodding kids need from a "cool" role model such as CJ.

"The game also says that the drug industry in San Andreas is perhaps a multimillion dollar industry."

The game also days that the drug industry in San Andreas is perhaps a multimillion dollar industry. (Citation needed)

Fix'd. And okay, let's run with your scenario. It's a multimillion dollar industry. What about characters such as Big Smoke and Ryder? (http://gta.wikia.com... http://gta.wikia.com... http://gta.wikia.com...) These characters are killed for dealing drugs, which shows kids how dangerous they are. And let us not forget the disturbing images brandished into child's mind by Big Bear. Big Bear quite literally becomes a slave to his habits. He lost drastic amounts of weight and his dignity. No child would ever want to go through that. Besides, CJ become a millionaire by doing legitimate business that doesn't involve crime. For instance, CJ can out-earn any drug dealers profit in the Taxi missions. (http://gta.wikia.com...) If a player chooses, they can obtain a taxi and collect fares. The play makes easy money this way, and it is legitimate. Not to mention, CJ makes a ton of anti drug statements. And kids probably think CJ is cool, considering he's a gangsta.

"Then why not go out and buy a pool game? It'd be just like GTA minus all the whores and drugs and killing and stuff..."

But GTA has pool and many more educational life lessons all rolled into one. Therefore, GTA is more educational than any pool game.

"Google Maps also teachers children map skills, without the drugs and whores and killing and stuff..."

But does Google Maps provide anti-drug messages and pool? I thought so. Gta is more educational than Google Maps.

Clearly, my opponent does not understand the debate. The debate was not to slander GTA San Andreas, nor was it to say it is a bad influence. Let me clear things up for you. You are supposed to prove that there is an educational game out there that is more educational than GTA San Andreas. You failed to do that. All you managed to do was say why GTA has bad ethical teachings. Ergo, my game is still more educational than anything you have brought up, because you haven't brought anything up.

Try harder this round.
Republican95

Con

Okay, I will provide an example of a game that is more educational that GTA: San Andreas

The MECA game Oregon Trail is obviously more educational that GTA. It contains all the "subject matter" GTA does and doesn't have the whores, murder, and drugs.
(a) Oregon Trail teaches map skills. You are obviously looking at maps in the game.
(b) Oregon Trail teachers nutritional skills. In the game you have the option to alter the rations of your party, the results of fewer rations is more sickness.
(c) Oregon Trail teachers players about stamina. You have the option to change the pace of you party, faster paces result in more sickness.
(d) Oregon Trail teachers time management skills. Players are trying to get to Oregon before the winter arrives and the chance of death increases severly.
(e) Oregon Trail teaches financial skills. Players must manage their money and have the option to trade with other pioneers.
(f) Oregon Trail teaches players about race relations. Players encounter Indians and they can either befriend them or relations can turn hostile.
(g) Oregon Trail teachers about history. Any explanation needed?

I have established my own case.

As to my opponent's claim that violence and education have no connection, he is simply wrong.

(a) Students who are exposed to violence (such as in GTA) are more likely to act violent.
(b) Students who act violently are more likely to get in trouble at school.
(c) Students who get into trouble at school are more likely to not do well in school.
(d) Students who do not do well in school are more likley to drop out.

Yep, GTA is surely an equation that leads to a prosperous future...
Debate Round No. 2
Aric

Pro

Okay, I shall negate my opponents arguments

"Oregon Trail teaches map skills. You are obviously looking at maps in the game."

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.thegtaplace.com...

Not as well as grand theft auto does. As you can see, Oregon Trail's map choices are limited, while GTA's are rich and immersible. Plus, players in Oregon trail only have some degree of freedom, and there's only one point B, whereas in GTA San Andreas, players can go anywhere, and the map is much more vast in open. Plus, more people will be traveling through urban environments in their everyday lives than traveling to Oregon.

"Oregon Trail teachers nutritional skills. In the game you have the option to alter the rations of your party, the results of fewer rations is more sickness."

So it teaches kids how to ration food if they go camping. But GTA San Andreas teaches kids the important effects of overeating and eating right. It shows children that if you become obese, you are at risk for a heart attack. Besides, I think most kids already realize that if they don't eat they die. Most kids, however, do not realize that eating fast food is bad, and the consequences of obesity.

"Oregon Trail teachers players about stamina. You have the option to change the pace of you party, faster paces result in more sickness."

Once again, a common sense issue. Most kids know running makes them tired. However, most kids do not realize that running can be beneficial to your health. In fact, your game states quite the contrary. Exercising will make you sick. How is that beneficial to children? At least CJ loses weight and becomes stronger, instead of shriveling up and dying due to exercise. =/

"Oregon Trail teachers time management skills. Players are trying to get to Oregon before the winter arrives and the chance of death increases severly."

GTA San Andreas teaches the same thing. In GTA, the HUD has a in game clock. Not to mention, there are several missions where time is an issue. My game shows a more accurate depiction of time, with sunsets and sunrises and a real clock, where your game merely has the change of seasons.

http://gta.wikia.com...

"Oregon Trail teaches financial skills. Players must manage their money and have the option to trade with other pioneers."

But GTA more so, my friend. In GTA, money management is everything. And plus, players can earn money by doing jobs that pertain to the modern world. Like taxi driving and police work.

http://gta.wikia.com...

"Oregon Trail teaches players about race relations. Players encounter Indians and they can either befriend them or relations can turn hostile."

Gta can't top that.

"Oregon Trail teachers about history. Any explanation needed?"

Nope.

Buuuuuuuuut......

You never cited your sources. So to the average reader, it's almost like Oregon Trail doesn't even exist.

Until you cite your sources, you STILL have to come up with a game that tops GTA education wise.

"As to my opponent's claim that violence and education have no connection, he is simply wrong.

(a) Students who are exposed to violence (such as in GTA) are more likely to act violent.
(b) Students who act violently are more likely to get in trouble at school.
(c) Students who get into trouble at school are more likely to not do well in school.
(d) Students who do not do well in school are more likley to drop out."

I never said they don't have a connection. I simply said the debate is over whether or not GTA is more educational than a game labeled as educational. The debate is not over whether or not GTA causes violence. Not to mention, you STILL haven't cited sources for this argument and your others. Ergo, you've wasted two rounds on baseless conjecture and mindless dribble.

I suggest coming up with a valid argument, Con.
Republican95

Con

I will start by dismantling my opponent's attacks on my case.

My Opponent claims the map system in GTA is far superior than that of the map system of The Oregon Trail

Well, duh, Oregon Trail was made in '71 and GTA: San Andreas was made in like, '07. But that is beside the point. However, the map system in Oregon Trail has suburb representation of settlements and geographical locations in the western United States. The only comparison that GTA has to this is maybe the player will be able to identify human-made landmarks that are in San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Las Vegas. However, the player doesn't learn that these landmarks are actually in San Fran, L.A., and Las Vegas, instead they learn that these places are in San Fiero, Los Santos, and Las Venturas. This might lead some children to actually believe that those cities exist, and would damage their perception of geography. Would you rather learn about fictional landmarks and cities or real landmarks and cities?

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

My opponent claims that Oregon Trail teachers that if you don't eat enough you die, which most children already know.

Actually, bulimia and anorexia are huge problems amongst the younger generation right now. So, it might be beneficial to actually teach children that not eating enough is harmful.

http://www.avalonhills.org...

My opponent claims children need not know that running makes them tired.

Children do need to know that dangerous amounts of physical activity in unfavorable conditions can severely harm their health. Don't they? We just can't educate children on one cause of death, there are thousands of ways to die. And exhaustion kills more children than heart disease in America. Children need to be educated about the dangerousness of over-exercise.

My opponent claims the clock system in Oregon Trail has no dirt on that of GTA

Yay! Children now know that the sun goes up and down! A day-night system does nothing to educate children. And which is more pressing, dieing of hypothermia or losing a mission? The time system in Oregon Trail is adequate for Oregon Trail, day night means nothing when your traveling to Oregon, the temperature and weather might though.

My opponent claims that the financial system in GTA is better than that of Oregon Trail.

However, in my personal experience when playing GTA, it is possible for the player to obtain huge amounts of money by entering cheat codes. In Oregon Trail no such cheat code gives the player money. If you have huge amounts of money, you should have no problem spending it. However, if you have a limited amount of funds and no one to earn more you will have to spend money wisely. Which do children need to know more, learning how to blow huge dollars on stuff they don't need OR how to conserve money in a time of need?

http://www.gamespot.com...

My opponent believes that the connection between education and violence is irrelevant.

However, as a society we measure education in outcome. It doesn't matter how smart you are unless you can use that knowledge to better society. A high school drop out won't be able to better society that much, even if he knows how to play pool and enlist the services of prostitutes.
Debate Round No. 3
Aric

Pro

"Well, duh, Oregon Trail was made in '71 and GTA: San Andreas was made in like, '07. But that is beside the point. However, the map system in Oregon Trail has suburb representation of settlements and geographical locations in the western United States. The only comparison that GTA has to this is maybe the player will be able to identify human-made landmarks that are in San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Las Vegas. However, the player doesn't learn that these landmarks are actually in San Fran, L.A., and Las Vegas, instead they learn that these places are in San Fiero, Los Santos, and Las Venturas. This might lead some children to actually believe that those cities exist, and would damage their perception of geography. Would you rather learn about fictional landmarks and cities or real landmarks and cities?"

However, while this may "confuse" some children, at a bare minimum, GTA San Andreas will show children how to navigate in an urban environment. No child is ever going to need to know how to navigate in a 19th century Western American settlement. Not yet, at least.

"My opponent claims that Oregon Trail teachers that if you don't eat enough you die, which most children already know.

Actually, bulimia and anorexia are huge problems amongst the younger generation right now. So, it might be beneficial to actually teach children that not eating enough is harmful."

While I thought it wasn't worth a mention, apparently it is. In GTA, if CJ has zero fat, he will lose health and be mocked by pedestrians.

http://www.gtasanandreas.net...

My opponent claims children need not know that running makes them tired.

"Children do need to know that dangerous amounts of physical activity in unfavorable conditions can severely harm their health. Don't they? We just can't educate children on one cause of death, there are thousands of ways to die. And exhaustion kills more children than heart disease in America. Children need to be educated about the dangerousness of over-exercise."

Again, I thought it would be irrelevant to bring up, but CJ also can work out too much. CJ's gym coach tells him when he needs to stop to take a breather. And if CJ works out even more after that, he gets kicked out of the gym for twelve hours. And, when doing aerobic exercises such as biking and swimming, CJ will have to take brakes to breath, and will be incapable of motion while taking these breaks. Ergo, my game teaches the same lesson, but more in-depth.

http://gta.wikia.com...
http://gta.wikia.com...

"Yay! Children now know that the sun goes up and down! A day-night system does nothing to educate children. And which is more pressing, dieing of hypothermia or losing a mission? The time system in Oregon Trail is adequate for Oregon Trail, day night means nothing when your traveling to Oregon, the temperature and weather might though."

Because children will have to travel to Oregon in a covered wagon by the time they are 21.

"However, in my personal experience when playing GTA, it is possible for the player to obtain huge amounts of money by entering cheat codes. In Oregon Trail no such cheat code gives the player money. If you have huge amounts of money, you should have no problem spending it. However, if you have a limited amount of funds and no one to earn more you will have to spend money wisely. Which do children need to know more, learning how to blow huge dollars on stuff they don't need OR how to conserve money in a time of need?"

Okay, but players in GTA can earn money by doing jobs that the children might actually grow up and do. Like being a firefighter, nurse, taxi driver, cop, or truck driver. In Oregon trail, money just comes from the sky at the begging of the game.

"My opponent believes that the connection between education and violence is irrelevant.

However, as a society we measure education in outcome. It doesn't matter how smart you are unless you can use that knowledge to better society. A high school drop out won't be able to better society that much, even if he knows how to play pool and enlist the services of prostitutes."

It's not relevant, it's just not the purpose of the debate. The purpose of the debate is to determine which game is more educational.

In conclusion, GTA San Andreas teaches kids how to navigate in an urban environment, say no to drugs and resist peer pressure, how to get a good nights rest, how to exercise, how to have a healthy diet, how to work in various job environments, and basic geometry.

Oregon Trail teaches kids about the Oregon Trail, and other pointless and useless life lessons.

I had a great debate with you, Con. I look forward to arguing with you in the future.

Vote pro!
Republican95

Con

In my final round I will challenge PRO's belief that the high amount of violence in GTA should not be taken into consideration when deciding which game is more educational.

Using PRO's belief we can basically prove anything is anything. For instance, if I wanted to prove that taco salad is healthy (I mean it's a salad right? A 12,000 calorie salad...) I could prove so my saying it has lettuce and lettuce is healthy.

My line of thinking would be extremely false because we know the unhealthy things in salad would offset the health benefits of lettuce. Because we all know that when you throw in tortilla chips, refried beans, and Mexican cheese to lettuce the fact that lettuce is healthy doesn't necessarily make the whole salad healthy.

Similarly, when we judge if a video game is educational or not we cannot cherry pick certain things out of the video game, we must look at the game in whole.

Looking at GTA in whole, the fact that the player has the option to kill innocent people, use drugs, and (if you enable a mod) the ability to have sex greatly outshines any type of education value in the game. Because...

(a) Students who are exposed to violence (such as in GTA) are more likely to act violent.
(b) Students who act violently are more likely to get in trouble at school.
(c) Students who get into trouble at school are more likely to not do well in school.
(d) Students who do not do well in school are more likley to drop out.

Thank you PRO for starting such an interesting debate, I would like to encourage voters to vote for CON, you may give PRO the point for sources though.
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by pcmbrown 7 years ago
pcmbrown
Aric, a point is legitimate, even w/o a source. at any rate, 5 points 2 u
Posted by TurkeyProphet 7 years ago
TurkeyProphet
The point con misses is that if video game don't teach children about prostitute etiquette who will? Furthermore the fact that you can gun down a wench after having her is a paramount lesson for any prostitute. Or for a child aspiring to be a prostitute.
Posted by Xer 7 years ago
Xer
RFD:
-B/A - Con/Con
-Conduct - Tied
-S&G - Tied
-Arguments - Pro
---He did a suprisingly good job at affirming the resolution.
Sources - Pro
---He had much more.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by pcmbrown 7 years ago
pcmbrown
AricRepublican95Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Vote Placed by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
AricRepublican95Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by welldonesteak 7 years ago
welldonesteak
AricRepublican95Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Xer 7 years ago
Xer
AricRepublican95Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50