Garchomp-Mega should be moved to Ubers.
Debate Rounds (4)
Round 1: Opening
Round 2: Attacks
Round 3: Rebuttals+ constructive
Round 4: Closing statement. (no new info)
I, as Con, will be arguing that Garchomp's mega form should stay in the OU tier.
Background knowledge for voters:
**Isn't evidence for debate or an argument, just some necessary background knowledge**
The ranking system we will be arguing about in this debate is a tiered system created by the online Smogon community. This system does not follow the official Pokemon VGC Rules. It is made by fans for fans for the purpose of fairness. By separating the pokemon into tiers based upon their usage amount and competitive prowess, it makes it so a mediocre pokemon can be used against other mediocre pokemon without the threat of a OP pokemon completely decimating it. This allows for more balanced teams and strategies. The two tiers covered in this debate will be Ubers and Over-Used (OU).
Ubers - The highest tier, typically where you find the best of the best of pokemon. They typically have elite base stats, move-pools, abilities, or a combination of those three. Mostly comprised of pokemon in the legendary category.
OU - The second highest tier. Similar to Ubers, it has elite pokemon found in it. However, these pokemon are not considered a powerful enough threat to the pokemon found in the Ubers meta to be a viable option for use in Ubers. But they are also considered to powerful for use in lower tiers. OU and lower pokemon can be used in Ubers but it is recommended that they are not.
Thus concludes the background knowledge.
Side note: I typed the above based off of my memory and understanding of the system. I would like to request the Pro correct anything I got wrong and add anything I left unsaid as an addition to the background knowledge for the voters. Thanks ahead of time.
I look forward to a great debate and wish the Pro good luck.
I would like to start off my attack with the recent ban of lucarionite in OU. Yes, I will admit lucario is a beast, as well as my favorite pokemon. And I do believe that it, along with its mega evolution, is very good. Was it right to send it off to ubers? I don't know. But if lucario is sent to ubers, I think garchomp should be too. Here is why. Lucario has very good stats as a mega. 145 attack, 140 special attack, and 112 speed is nothing to laugh at. Lets compare this to the stats of mega garchomp. Mega garchomp has better HP and attack, as well as better defense and special defense. Plus he has sand force along with an extremely diverse move pool consisting of moves such as, but not limited to, outrage, dragon claw, swords dance, earthquake, stone edge, brick break, crunch, and aqua tail. Throw this diversity in along with sand force, STAB, and that huge attack and you have a sweeper. Garchomp's admittedly lackluster speed can easily be remedied with either tailwind (talonflame is a great partner for garchomp) or some speed boosts. (mainly scolipede , who will probably scare some fairies away) I have found that scolipede and garchomp work very well together.
Lets see how mega Garchomp matches up against some of the most used pokemon in OU. (They might not be officially most used, but they are pokemon I have seen a lot.)
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Rotom-W: 121-144 (50.2 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Garchomp will almost guaranteed survive 2 hydro pumps)
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 708-836 (237.5 - 280.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Garchomp can take a priority choice band brave bird)
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 150-177 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO (Garchomp can kill scizor faster than scizor can kill garchomp.)
252 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 308-366 (76.2 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 236-282 (72.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery/252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 72-85 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
As you can see, Garchomp matches up pretty nicely against some of the main pokemon in the OU metagame. (I'm sorry if I missed some; these are just the ones that came to mind)
Given Mega Garchomp's incredible base stats, diverse move pool, and amazing usage, I think he should be moved out of OU into ubers.
Mega Garchomp's base stats are:
HP 108, Atk 170, Def 115, Sp. Atk 120, Sp. Def 95, Speed 92 (total 700)
Most of the well used Ubers have base stat totals of 600 to 700 so Garchomp is within that range. Garchomp has monstrous stats! However, stats are not everything in pokemon. The reasons why he would not be usable competitively in Ubers are: his unusable ability, his typing, his few stats that are lacking, his lack of a priority move, his lack of a team role, and that almost all Ubers teams carry multiple pokemon that would wall or counter him.
His ability is Sand Force. Sand Force strengthens his Rock, Ground, and Steel type moves while under the Sandstorm weather condition. He has access to Stone Edge and Earthquake which would both receive a boost from it. But the problem is, "while under the Sandstorm weather condition". Weather conditions got a huge drawback last year. All weather conditions last only 5 turns unless something else gets rid of it. The weather starts out as neutral so you wouldn't be able to lead your team with Garchomp while getting the boost. Two Sandstorm inducers you could play would be either Tyranitar or Hippowdon. When either enters the battle the effect changes to Sandstorm. You then let it die or switch into Garchomp. If you switch into Garchomp he will take the hit originally aimed at Tyranitar or Hippowdon. Making him susceptible to revenge killing. He will have a chance to take down the opposing pokemon and then die to the next one. Or, if you wait for the Sandstorm inducers to die, then he can come in fresh and deal some damage for a few turns. The sad part is that these are the BEST case scenarios. Two commonly used pokemon in Ubers can eliminate the Sandstorm you worked so hard to create;
Groudon - Has the ability Drought which changes the weather to Sunny. This pokemon either forces you to switch or causes you to, more often then not, lose Garchomp.
Kyogre - Has the ability Drizzle which changes the weather to Rain. This pokemon also forces you to switch because it can OHKO Garchomp.
So, in short, to use his ability at all you will waste a team member slot, then get minimal usage (if any), and then (more often than not) get completely countered by your opponents weather inducer. I believe I have proven that Garchomp's ability will not be of any use to him in Ubers.
Next up is his typing. Dragon/Ground which gives STAB (Same Type Attack Boost) to Outrage, Dragon Claw, and Earthquake. Unfortunately his "great" typing is his biggest "Achilles Heel" while in the Ubers meta. This Gen, Game Freak (developers of Pokemon) added a new type, Fairy. Dragon type moves have ZERO effect on Fairy types. Also Ground type moves have ZERO effect on Flying types. Every competitive team has at least one Fairy type just to counter the over-abundance of Dragon types found in this tier. Thus, every good competitive team already has a built in counter to Garchomp already in their team. This practically makes Garchomp, as a sweeper, WORTHLESS until you have found a way to KO your opponent's Fairy types. To top it off, there are also plenty of Flying types to be found in the Ubers meta.
His Sp.Def is lacking, allowing pokemon who cannot wall him but that have a good Sp.Atk stat, Mewtwo for example, to OHKO him. His Speed is lacking which allows almost everything that doesn't wall him to out-speed and KO him.
Garchomp lacks a priority move! This makes it hard for him to revenge kill.
In Ubers Garchomp has no role to play in a team that cannot be done better. I have already shown he is an inconsistent sweeper, a bad lead, and a bad revenge killer. To top this off the Ubers tier is filled with other Dragon types that CAN do these things and are BETTER options to use than him.
I leave with the following list of some Garchomp counters commonly found in Ubers and my closing.
Mewtwo - OHKO with Icebeam.
Lugia - 2HKO with Icebeam.
Kyogre - OHKO with either Water Spout or Icebeam.
Rayquaza - OHKO with Outrage.
Deoxys (Norm and Atk) - OHKO with Icebeam.
Dialga - OHKO with Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse.
Palkia - OHKO with Spacial Rend.
Arceus (Fairy) - OHKO with Judgment.
Genesect - OHKO with Icebeam.
Xerneas - OHKO with Moonblast.
If Mega Garchomp was in the Uber tier almost no one would use it. Every competitive team in Ubers would have, on average, two or more pokemon that could decimate Garchomp. This would make him practically unusable. The tiering system was created to avoid stuff like this. It is supposed to allow any pokemon to be usable. Instead of being "just another Dragon type" to get slapped like a mosquito, Garchomp should stay in OU where he is still great to use.
The con has made some very good points. Yes, garchomp-mega has threats in the uber tier. Yes, sand force is not the best ability because of the weather nerf and because of the two main weather pokemon in ubers, groudon and kyogre. But that doesn't mean that there is no sandstorm in uber. Hippodon, with its gigantic defense and attack and tyranitar, a legit pseudo legendary with monstrous defenses and attack. Slap a smooth stone on and the sandstorm just became a lot better. Groudon, even with its monstrous stats, doesn't want to switch in on an earthquake from either of these pokemon. Kyogre will fair a little better, but then either one will just switch out to a pokemon better equipped to deal with rain, such as pakila, (if he is on your team) who will smack back with thunder. Also, just because mega-garchomp is on a team doesn't mean the switch will go directly from the sand inducer to garchomp. Garchomp is not a one-poke team. Just because it doesn't fair well against some common pokemon carrying ice type moves doesn't mean that it doesn't belong. That is what the other five pokemon on the team are for. Also, sand force might not see a lot of use, but that doesn't mean it will just be cast out and forgotten. All that attack plus sand force plus stab is a lot of power. Power like that is not just going to be ignored.
The con also made an excellent point that garchomp is not a good revenge killer because he lacks a priority move. True. But one of the most common 'chomps around is scarfchomp. With a choice scarf, garchomp becomes a good revenge killer; outspeeding a good chunk of the uber metagame.
Also, the point "fairy and flying being immune to garchomp's STABs " was made, and this is a very solid point, with all the arceus-fairies, xerenas', and raquazas flying around ubers. But that doesn't mean that garchomp is not useful! How about all of the blaziken's, ho-oh's, and salamence's around? Garchomp can match up fairly well against these pokemon; using stone edge, earthquake, or some other move to KO them. There will always be threats to a pokemon, whether they be giant or little. Think of celebi. Celebi sees usage all over, in ubers and in OU. But look at the typing. Bug and Psychic. That gives it a whopping seven weaknesses; the most (at least that I know of) of any pokemon. But does that mean it is bad? Of course not. Celebi is a very popular and good pokemon that can be used as a wall, a sweeper, a cleric, the list goes on. Garchomp similary has its own role on a team, whether it is to revenge, swords dance and sweep, or even just to be a versitile attaker. The threats will always be out there, but how you handle them with other pokemon will have a good chunk in determining how good your mega-garchomp will be. With amazing stats, powerful moves, and five other pokemon on his side, mega-garchomp can be a real contender in ubers. (Also, mega-garchomp can use iron head to take care of fairies, while getting a sandforce boost while in sandstorm.)
As opposing to the cons closing, I will end this section with a list of some pokemon that garchomp does well against.
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 536-632 (178 - 209.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 363-427 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 220-260 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 606-714 (167.4 - 197.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 444-524 (158 - 186.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 584-688 (140.3 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Jirachi: 318-374 (78.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(These are the pokemon showdown standard EVs for these pokemon)
Here is mega-garchomp cleaning up late game~http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com...
Anyways, Attack Rebuttals:
"But if lucario is sent to ubers, I think garchomp should be too. Here is why..."
- Garchomp and Lucario play very differently. They both have different types, base stats, abilities, move sets, etc. By comparing their base stats and saying that "Garchomp's are better in certain areas" is obvious and proves NOTHING. They are both completely different pokemon and just because one is sent to Ubers does not mean the other belongs there.
"Plus he has sand force"
- I have already shown that this does not matter.
"move pool consisting of moves such as, but not limited to, outrage, dragon claw, swords dance, earthquake, stone edge, brick break, crunch, and aqua tail. Throw this diversity in along with sand force, STAB, and that huge attack and you have a sweeper."
- A pokemon can only have 4 moves. The most reasonable move-set for Ubers use is Outrage, Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Stone Edge. Not very diverse. I have already shown that Sand Force is useless and he does not make a good sweeper.
"Garchomp's admittedly lackluster speed can easily be remedied with either tailwind or some speed boosts."
- Both the supportive strategies involving Talonflame and Scolipede are poor choices in Ubers so we must expect that a smart player will leave them behind.
"Lets see how mega Garchomp matches up against some of the most used pokemon in OU."
- These are pokemon in OU. It is obvious that he can stand his own against them. This does not mean he is ready for Ubers.
Corrections and Rebuttals to your Rebuttals and Constructive:
"But that doesn't mean that there is no sandstorm in uber. Hippodon, with its gigantic defense and attack and tyranitar, a legit pseudo legendary with monstrous defenses and attack. Slap a smooth stone on and the sandstorm just became a lot better."
- As I pointed out before, Sandstorm does exist. It just is not a good idea. Smooth Rock (not stone) lengthens Sandstorms duration to 8 turns. So what? If the weather is changed then lengthening Sandstorm doesn't matter. If you aren't going to switch Tyranitar or Hippowdon then that eats away at the turns you still have under Sandstorm. In order to make them viable threats you'd need a better item than Smooth Rock. They get countered harder than Garchomp does in Ubers.
"Groudon, even with its monstrous stats, doesn't want to switch in on an earthquake from either of these pokemon."
- You are partially mistaken. Groudon and Hippowdon both 4HKO each other but Groudon is faster so he'd get the kill if Hippowdon didn't get a hit on the switch in. Groudon has a 43.8% chance to OHKO Tyranitar (garunteed 2HKO) and Tyranitar can Barely 4HKO Groudon. Besides, there are plenty of other ways to deal with Hippowdon or Tyranitar besides bringing Groudon in to suicide.
"Kyogre will fair a little better, but then either one will just switch out to a pokemon better equipped to deal with rain, such as pakila, who will smack back with thunder."
- I assume you mean Palkia. We aren't saying there aren't ways around either of these I'm just saying that this would still put an end to Sandstorm and make Garchomp that much more useless.
" Garchomp is not a one-poke team. [...]That is what the other five pokemon on the team are for."
- If you want to base a entire team around supporting one mediocre pokemon then by all means go for it. Just be ready to lose allot. Every pokemon is supposed to support the rest of the team not drag the rest down.
"With a choice scarf, garchomp becomes a good revenge killer; outspeeding a good chunk of the uber metagame."
- We are debating MEGA Garchomp not regular Garchomp. He cannot hold two items and since he already has the Garchompite he cannot hold Choice Scarf.
"How about all of the blaziken's, ho-oh's, and salamence's around?"
- So what if he handles a handful of them well. If the opponent is sending these against Garchomp you have already won the battle or they aren't very smart. A smart player would obviously counter it with one of the many counters I listed.
"But look at [Celebi's] typing. Bug and Psychic. "
- Don't mean to burst your bubble but, Celebi's typing is Grass/Psychic. It has 6 weaknesses. You cannot compare Celebi to Garchomp, they're vastly different. This actually helps my case. As you said, Celebi can play a rare role in Ubers, a cleric. As said before, many pokemon can to what Garchomp does better.
"Garchomp Vs Blissey"
- Blissey will Toxic Garchomp so this isn't a good idea.
"Garchomp Vs Darkrai"
- Brick Break is a terrible choice over Stone Edge or Dragon Claw. This would never happen.
As mentioned before, he can counter a few but he is not worth a spot on a team. In sports terms; he isn't star player material, he's bench warmer material. If put in Ubers I cannot stress enough just how bad he'd be.
On to the final round's ending . Good luck Pro.
Mega-garchomp is one of the new mega pokemon that is simply too good for OU. It has insanely high attack, above-average defenses, and a pretty good ability. Mega-garchomp's main, if not only flaw is his speed stat of 92. Nevertheless, mega-garchomp is a terror in OU; sporting only three weaknesses and having an extremely diverse movepool enabling it to be a baton pass reciever, a wallbreaker, part of a sandstorm team, or even just a plain old sweeper. For these reasons, mega-garchomp should be moved out of OU and into the uber tier, were it would be more evenly matched.
Mega-garchomp would be better in ubers, using his normal ubers set of outrage, dragon claw, earthquake, and stone edge; enabling it to hit nearly everything in ubers for a lot of damage. It can find a spot on a sand team, (which are more common than first thought of) on a hyper offense team, or just on a regular uber team.
His stats, movepool, and usage are just too much for the OU metagame. He would be better suited among the ubers.
All my reasons above as to why Mega Garchomp would not be usable competitively in Ubers still stand: his ability is unusable, his typing gets countered hard, his few stats that are lacking are easily taken advantage of, he lacks a priority move, he lacks a team role to play that others cannot do better, and that almost all Ubers teams carry multiple pokemon that would wall or completely counter him.
If Mega Garchomp was in the Ubers tier almost no one would use it. Every competitive team in Ubers would have, on average, two or more pokemon that could counter Mega Garchomp. Because of this, and the other reasons restated above, Mega Garchomp would become nearly unusable.
Ultimately, if this question were to officially come up on Smogon it would be up to the fans. Smogon's tiering system was created to allow any pokemon to be usable, to have a place on a team, to truly belong. Not to be alienated by being out done in every area by its fellow Dragons. Mega Garchomp does great in OU and that home should NOT be taken away from him. He should stay in OU where fans will continue to use him.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by SNP1 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Con had better arguments and Pro made a remark about con not being an expert.
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