The Instigator
dtaylor971
Pro (for)
Winning
12 Points
The Contender
RebelRebelDixieDixie01
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Gay Marriage

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
dtaylor971
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/11/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 978 times Debate No: 48915
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)

 

dtaylor971

Pro

The idea of this debate has been lingering in the back of my mind ever since I saw Rebel display a serious dislike for gays on his profile and in various parts of DDO. So I challenge him to this debate to better understand his view of gay marriage.

First round is for acceptance only. Second round is for arguments and rebuttals, as is for third and fourth round. Good luck!


RebelRebelDixieDixie01

Con

Thank you for challenging me to this debate.

I accept
Debate Round No. 1
dtaylor971

Pro

Thank you. Just for clarification: the BoP is shared between us. I have done a debate on this recently, so I will use most of my points from that debate and put it into this debate. Good luck to the opposition!

I. Human Rights

A. UDHR

My first argument will be that the UDHR, or the United Unions for Human Rights, shows that gays should have equal rights and are an equal part of society. There are a few articles in the UDHR that propose the idea that gay marriage should be accepted by society. Article one states:

Article 1: "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights."

This article means that anyone, no matter what race or sexuality, should have equal rights. This means gays should have right of choice and marriage, something they are denied. Straight couples have both the right of choice and the right of marriage, so it is not moral to deny someone a right just because of their sexual orientation. Furthermore, it is even more immoral to deny someone a right over what they can not control (being gay.)

One may argue that being gay simply isn't a choice (to refute the argument above.) However, studies on the human brain have shown that a gay man's brain is more similar to a straight woman's brain than a straight man's brain [2] which shows us it is perfectly reasonable for a person with that type of brain to be attracted to a person of the same gender.

Before I conclude this argument, I would like to state another UDHR article that clearly states that gays should have the right to get married, as should anyone.

Article 16: "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. [1][3]"

This statement concludes that no one should be denied marriage, not even gays. The article prohibits discrimination against people. We can not morally (according to the UDHR) deny gay and lesbian marriage, as it would be discrimination.

B. ICCPR and Constitution

Now, we need to look at how gay marriage is legally accepted. The ICCPR is a legally-binded document that states what rights humans should have. This document, also, supports gay marriage. Article 23:2 states [4][5]:

"The right of men and women of marriageable age to marry and to found a family shall be recognized."

Notice how the article states "of men and women." This does not mean it has to be marriage between a man and woman, but rather both between a man and a woman and between same sexes. Also note that the article states that we shall recognize the gay's- and everyone's- rights to marry. I ask you, can we really disobey a legally binded document just for religious reasons?

And if one article is enough, Article 26:1 more clearly states that gay marriage should be accepted under law.


"All persons are equal before the law... ...The law shall prohibit any discrimination and guarantee to all persons equal and effective protection against discrimination."

Equal under law. Protection against discrimination. These are two things that are not being done for the gays. They are not equal under law, as not all gays are allowed marriage. They are being discriminated against for something they can't control. Technically, not letting gays have the right of both choice and marriage is a direct violation of a legally binded document. Before I come to an end, the Constitution:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

The basis and foundation of the U.S.A finds gays equal (and therefore should have equal rights). Do you really need more than a document that founds a country to prove my point?

II. Opinions of Others

A.
Polls

It is widely known that many polls have been conducted on gay marriage, with virtually all of them showing the same result: at least a 5-10% higher vote in favor of allowing it. 24 credible and official studies, all done by College Universities (Princeton) and research centers (Pew Research Center). The results are as follows [6]:

Highest vote in favor of gay marriage: 58%
Highest vote opposing gay marriage: 48%

No polls that directly ask if you oppose or support gay marriage got more than 48% vote opposing it. If the majority of the population supports it, why should we rule in favor of the lower opinion? It would just be pissing more people off if we didn't legalize it than if we legalized it.

Second, we clearly see a rising trend in the polls. I took one progressive poll from that website and made a graph using the numbers app to show you the exact trend in gay marriage views (shown below.)



In another poll, recording a smaller sample size (2,000 people) had almost the same result [6]:

Support: 52%

Oppose: 43%

Unsure: 5%

Again, another poll shows that the majority are for gay marriage. There you have it, the majority of U.S people approve of gay marriage. If you want more polls, I can give you some.

III. It's going to win sooner or later

A. My third argument will be that it will win sooner or later. Since '08, 15 states have legalized or is going to legalize gay marriage [7]. Illinois is going to legalize it on June 1st. Second, 8 of the total 16 states have legalized gay marriage in 2013, which suggests that the gay marriage idea is getting more widespread. Out of the total 16, only 5 states have legalized it before '10. That means it is really speeding up.

B. Now, allow us to dive deeper down into the statistics. Of the 16 states, 5 states legalized gay marriage by court decision. This means the court found gay marriage legal by law. Another 3 states legalized gay marriage by popular vote, which meant the people favored gay marriage. The remaining 10 were legalized by state legislature (kind of like state congress). Note that the numbers of the three decisions don't add up because I included the Civil Unions states also.

Since there is no format for when I have to post my arguments and rebuttals, I will provide more arguments in the third round as well as the fourth. I thank my opponent for his time, and I thank you for reading! Have a wonderful day!

[1] http://www.un.org...
[2] http://news.nationalgeographic.com...
[3] http://www.amnestyusa.org...
[4] http://www.ohchr.org...
[5] http://jurist.org...
[6] http://www.gallup.com...
[7] http://www.statesthatallowgaymarriage.com...








RebelRebelDixieDixie01

Con

Thank you for the response, and I again thank you for challenging me to this debate.

My first point I would like to make is Leviticus 20:13 says "If a man lies (marries, has sexual intercourse with, etc.) a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have committed what is detestable, surely they be put to death, their blood on their own hands. That says a lot, it is what I base my "philosophy" on.

My second point I would like to make, is one of the main reasons for my dislike toward gay people.
My friend was sexually abused by a homosexual person severely, he was 13 at the time and now is going through some mental problems when it comes to going back to the place he was abused at (his karate dojo)

But that's just one reason, there are many other reasons I will make later on in this debate.

We are both Jewish but with with slight, well, major differences, I am Messianic Jewish while you ar Regular Jewish (I'mnot sure what denomination of Judaism you are, so that's why I put regular).

A difference in our religions has one huge factor, I believe in hell while you do not (i believe) which is why you think that atheism is fine and Gay marriage, etc. but I do believe in a hell, which is why I dislike homosexuality and atheism.

Now on to genetics, I know that homosexuality is not a genetic disorder, because my God would never let babies be born with such a terrible sin which will last their entire lives.

P.S. I would just like to say that I am merely stating my reason for dislike, im not trying to post arguments or get in fights.

I await my opponents response.
Debate Round No. 2
dtaylor971

Pro

I thank my opponent for my response. I see my opponent used mainly religious reasons, which I will refute. Sorry for my slow response, as I am in Arizona watching Spring Training.

--Rebuttal I--

A. In my opponent's first argument, he states that a Bible verse makes gay marriage wrong. However, there is no proof that the Bible, Torah, or Qur'an is actually God's word. Therefore, it is not entirely reasonable to follow its teachings instead of a proven document made by the beliefs of people around the world (UDHR) or a legally-binded document about human rights (ICCPR) or a document that founded America (Constitution.)

B. Second, you can not base an entire law on a single religion. You must take everyone's opinion into account, such as the agnostics, liberals, atheists, etc. You are stating your evidence as an unproven document that not everyone even believes in. Therefore, without proof that the Bible is God's word, then your argument stands unproved.

--Rebuttal II--

A. First off, I am deeply sorry about your friend's experience. But surely you can not base a population of 9 million people [1] (9 million gays) on a single persons actions. There are very few gays that will even think about doing that. It is obvious that you fail to see gays as a whole, but rather see the whole gay community through one's spectacle. With an event like that, it is understandable, but you need to see the gay population as a whole.

B. Despite this not exactly being an argument, I will try to refute it. If gays had equal rights, such as marriage, it would lower their chances of doing the action that you presented as they would already have their sexual needs satisfied, along with their needs of another gay person. Gays (at least the few that I've met) are very loving and loyal towards their partner and would never commit a deed like that.

--Rebuttal III--

A. The remainder of my opponent's words are not really arguments, so I will refute them as one. His main point is that no gay could be born gay because God would not allow them to. However, there is scientific evidence (refer to my NatGeo study) that suggests that gays have very little control or no choice over their sexual orientation. Multiple twin studies also suggest this, as the twin of a gay brother/sister has a significantly higher chance of being gay [2]. Also, why would anyone choose to be discriminated against and not have equal rights? Why would anyone choose to be singled out in public?

B. I follow Jewish teachings, but follow them quite loosely so I don't become a slave. I choose what I believe in (gays should be allowed equal rights), but still follow morals. Instead of accepting the fact that God exists, I question his existence AND I question atheists. I guess you could call me Agnostic more than Jewish, even though I do follow the Jewish religion. Please note that this was just to answer my counterpart's questions.

Thanks to my opponent for responding. I wish him luck and await his response!

[1] http://gaylife.about.com...
[2] http://www.nytimes.com...

RebelRebelDixieDixie01

Con

" In my opponent's first argument, he states that a Bible verse makes gay marriage wrong. However, there is no proof that the Bible, Torah, or Qur'an is actually God's word. Therefore, it is not entirely reasonable to follow its teachings instead of a proven document made by the beliefs of people around the world (UDHR) or a legally-binded document about human rights (ICCPR) or a document that founded America (Constitution.)"

There is no proof that it is Gods word, but the U.S. was founded a Christian Nation by Christian people, and there are more Jewish, Muslim, and Christian people on the planet than any other religion, and they all oppose gay marriage, (Im not sure about Hindus so im not going to claim anything about them) But Christianity has so many denominations, its obvious why its the worlds most popular religion.

" Second, you can not base an entire law on a single religion. You must take everyone's opinion into account, such as the agnostics, liberals, atheists, etc. You are stating your evidence as an unproven document that not everyone even believes in. Therefore, without proof that the Bible is God's word, then your argument stands unproved."

Im not basing it off of one religion, there are dozens of religions and denominations that oppose gay marriage.

"First off, I am deeply sorry about your friend's experience. But surely you can not base a population of 9 million people [1] (9 million gays) on a single persons actions. There are very few gays that will even think about doing that. It is obvious that you fail to see gays as a whole, but rather see the whole gay community through one's spectacle. With an event like that, it is understandable, but you need to see the gay population as a whole."

I wasn't trying to base the entire gay population off of that one person, I was just stating things that have happened in my life that have led up to my current opinion.

"The remainder of my opponent's words are not really arguments, so I will refute them as one. His main point is that no gay could be born gay because God would not allow them to. However, there is scientific evidence (refer to my NatGeo study) that suggests that gays have very little control or no choice over their sexual orientation. Multiple twin studies also suggest this, as the twin of a gay brother/sister has a significantly higher chance of being gay [2]. Also, why would anyone choose to be discriminated against and not have equal rights? Why would anyone choose to be singled out in public?"

If I trusted science, I wouldn't be anti-gay.

http://www.centerforyouth.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 3
dtaylor971

Pro

Thanks to my opponent for his response. The "out of memory" error is back, so I don't know if it will affect my argument or not. Anyway, here are my rebuttals.

--Rebuttal I, II, and IV--

A. In my opponent's first argument, he states that the U.S is a Christian nation and they all oppose gay marriage. He also concedes to the point that the Bible may not be God's word. I will refute the Christian part first. If the U.S.A was founded by Christian people, why does the Constitution want equality between everyone? This would mean an Atheist is equal to a Christian, a sinner is equal to a priest, and so on. It may have been founded by Christian people, but they did not have strict Christian beliefs.

B. Then, my opponent states that everyone in the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim category are against gay marriage, This is obviously not true. If the U.S.A is a "Christian Nation," as you said, there is no way that the MAJORITY of people would favor gay marriage (refer to my round 2 polls.) Oh, and guess what! 76% of Jewish Americans STRONGLY FAVOR gay marriage [1]. And Christians are SPLIT on gay marriage views also [1]. 56% of white Catholics also favor gay marriage.

C. Next, my opponent states he isn't basing his views off of one religion, but rather every religion that does not like gay marriage. Correction: he is basing his gay marriage views off a single category of religion that opposes gay marriage. You concede that you don't even try to see it through the atheists' eyes, "normal" Jewish American eyes (refer to my B. poll), or any other religion that allows gay marriage. I can easily refute this by saying "there are dozens of religions and denominations that either allow gays or have nothing against them."

D. Nothing to refute in his next words (he stated the things that have led up to his beliefs.)

E. Last, my opponent states he doesn't trust science, so therefore my argument is false. Science has led us vaccines that have saved hundreds of millions of lives, showed us how cells reproduce and why we are still alive, what everything in the universe is made up of, etc. I'll let the voters decide on this one.

Thanks to my opponent for a wonderful debate, and thank you for reading! Have a nice day!

[1] http://www.patheos.com...

RebelRebelDixieDixie01

Con

I would just like to thank my opponent before hand for challenging me to this "debate"

I would like to end this "debate" without an argument, because I never intended for this debate to be an actual debate, more of a public discussion.

But I would like to ask the voters to vote only on who you agreed with, because I never intended for this to be a debate about points. My wins are low enough, and I dont want it to drop lower when I didnt want to have a real debate.

P.S. If you would like to talk to me about my beliefs, please PM me and I would be more than happy to reply.

Thanks to my opponent.
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by M8pisces 2 years ago
M8pisces
I like atheism but I absolutely against homosexuality, it disgusts me in every kind of way, to be honest
Posted by RebelRebelDixieDixie01 2 years ago
RebelRebelDixieDixie01
Kbub's, why are you racist?
Posted by kbub 2 years ago
kbub
Oh good. I've been waiting for this.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by SNP1 2 years ago
SNP1
dtaylor971RebelRebelDixieDixie01Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro was able to bring in many sources and made a rebuttal for all of Con's points. Con also said to vote based off of personal opinion, not based on the debate.
Vote Placed by SeventhProfessor 2 years ago
SeventhProfessor
dtaylor971RebelRebelDixieDixie01Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro was able to rebut all of Con's points (args), Con tried to steal a win by asking voters to vote based on personal opinions rather than who debated better, which was clearly Pro (Conduct), and Pro actually backed up his arguments with relevant sources (Sources).