Gay marriage and Catholics
Debate Rounds (5)
marriage (to a Catholic): covenant by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring.
marriage (in society today): the legally or formally recognized union of a man and a woman (or, in some jurisdictions, two people of the same sex) as partners in a relationship.
As you can see, the whole meaning has been distorted to fit the people's liking, not what God wants. God created us to be in loving relationships, and for us to love one another as man and woman to procreate. Yes, homosexuals should have the right to adopt, inherit, and anything else that a married couple should be able to do, but they should not call it marriage, and Catholics should not support gay marriage in any way shape or form. That does not mean that we need to stop loving them or accepting them into society, however, we should not go to any gay weddings, or receive the body and blood of Jesus Christ at communion if you support same-sex marriage.
Catholics should support gay marriage for the following reasons:
A. Regardless of your religious beliefs, a marriage between two homosexuals does not in any way affect you. It doesn't matter what your god believes because that is your god and it is unethical for you to impose your religious views onto anyone else. Believe it or not, there are many different religions in the world, some that condone gay marriage and some that condemn it. You cannot deny other the right to marry because of your religious beliefs seeing as it does not impede upon your life in any way.
B. Even if two Catholics of the same sex want to get married, that is their interpretation of the bible and god's commandments and it is just as valid as yours. If their interpretation of the bible is that god wants gays to be married then that is just as valid as your interpretation of the bible. I would like to discourage the argument that homosexual married Catholics aren't "real Catholics" because that is a no true scotsman logical fallacy and is detrimental to debates.
C. The definition of marriage doesn't matter because that is simply your definition. Most governments (like the government of the U.S.) recognize that marraige is simply a bond between two loving people and that gender doesn't matter. Saying that your definition is superior to anyone elses is a form of catholic relgious superiority and is immoral.
D. The argument that gays cannot marry is homophobic. Marraige is a right and denying rights to the gay community is a form of homophobia. Even if you don't have anything against gays, it's still cruel and bigoted to deny them rights that you have and enjoy. You also said that "we [catholics] should not go to any gay weddings." This begs the question: if you had a gay relative that was being married, would you refuse to go to his/her wedding as well? If so, that is also very homophobic because you are treating gay people with less respect than you treat straight people with.
E. Your argument assumes that god exists. You claim that your definition of marraige is what god wants however, you cannot prove god's existance through the scientific method therefore, this definition of marraige hold no real weight. It is like if I were to base my definition of marraige off of a magical genie that I read about in a book. This point is in no way an attempt to demean you or your religion, I am simply saying that leagally you can't deny someone the right to marry based off of religion.
For these reasons Catholics should support gay marraige.
1. Spiritually, gay marriage does not effect us. However, legally it does. When two parents want to teach their children that gay marriage and gay intercourse is wrong, and that they should not support it, they could be fined. Another point being that just because it does not effect us, does not mean that we should not care or fight for it. If you don't, isn't that extremely selfish? Should we not give food to the hungry because we are filled, or we shouldn't fight for abortion because we are alive, or give money to the poor because we have money? Maybe we shouldn't fight for the Lord's truth because society doesn't care. Maybe we should stop and submit into Satan. Maybe we shouldn't be Catholic because not EVERYONE believes in Catholicism. Just because it doesn't affect us, that doesn't mean that we can't fight for what we believe in.
2. Nowhere did I say that that two Catholic gay people who get married aren't "real Catholics". However, a Catholic priest, under natural law, cannot marry two people of the same sex. Some Catholic priests have even had to pay fines and do jail time for standing up for what we as Christians believe. That is where the law comes in. Marriage was created by God and for man and woman, which makes a sacred, religious, and sacramental thing that society and government have stolen and redefined.
3. The Bible states in Romans 1:26-27, "26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." In other words, being gay is NOT a sin, However the shameful acts in a "gay marriage" are. Having a same sex attraction is not a sin, in fact many gay people that are Catholic have devoted their lives into being chaste and focusing on God, not their temptations. For example, one man named Steve Gershom had this same revelation. "Is it hard to be gay and Catholic? Yes, because like everybody, I sometimes want things that are not good for me. The Church doesn"t let me have those things, not because she"s mean, but because she"s a good mother. If my son or daughter wanted to eat sand I"d tell them: that"s not what eating is for; it won"t nourish you; it will hurt you. Maybe my daughter has some kind of condition that makes her like sand better than food, but I still wouldn"t let her eat it. Actually, if she was young or stubborn enough, I might not be able to reason with her " I might just have to make a rule against eating sand. Even if she thought I was mean.
So the Church doesn"t oppose gay marriage because it"s wrong; she opposes it because it"s impossible, just as impossible as living on sand. The Church believes, and I believe, in a universe that means something, and in a God who made the universe " made men and women, designed sex and marriage from the ground up. In that universe, gay marriage doesn"t make sense. It doesn"t fit with the rest of the picture, and we"re not about to throw out the rest of the picture."
As you can see, a gay and Catholic person also believes that a man was meant to be with a woman and that gay marriage is not right.
3. The problem is not that we do not love and accept gay people into the Catholic Church, because we do. Actually we strongly invite them into the Church with open arms. Yes, there may be some people that are not as accepting as others, but if they don't love them as much as I love them, That's their problem. The problem is that the government and society has redefined marriage for all people, not just people that support gay marriage. Another point, just because you love someone, doesn't mean that you have to marry them. I love my best friend Sara, but that doesn't mean that I want to marry her, or to have sex with her. I think she's a beautiful strong young woman, and I love her like a sister, but I don't need to marry her to prove that. If a gay couple wants to be a gay couple, I'll let them! That's none of my business, but what is my business is when they try to steal the meaning of marriage away form us. Marriage belongs to the Church of Jesus Christ Himself, not the people that He created. We are not God, and we shouldn't try to be.
4. First off, I am NOT homophobic. I respect gays as much as any other person on God's good planet. Just because a Catholic cannot go to a gay person's wedding, does not mean that we have automatically stopped loving them. Under God's natural law, a man and a woman were created uniquely to create life just as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit did to you and I before conception. It is unnatural for a man and a man to have sex in or out of marriage. Biologically, they don't fit. We are not preventing them to love each other, or adopt, or have a Civil Union, But to redefine and distort the meaning of marriage is completely wrong, and shouldn't have been done in the first place.
5. I am saying that I believe in God, and this whole debate is the argument is that CATHOLICS should not support gay marriage. I couldn't care less what atheists, or anyone else believes or doesn't believe because that isn't my business. However, I do care about what other Christians believe because we actually have faith in a God that you claim "doesn't exist".
6. You are obviously not a Christian, because if you were, you wouldn't have all of the grammar mistakes that you had had in the previous round. It would be considerate if you actually capitalized the following words: God (unless you speak of gods that are believed in by various religions that are not Christianity of Catholicism), Bible, Catholics, and Church (if you are referring to the people of the Church. If you are referring to the building itself than you may lowercase the letter "c") Thank you and have a nice time debating to that. :)
(if anyone in the voting period could count the contender for grammar and spelling mistakes, that would be great unless you found more grammar mistakes in mine than his/hers)
Here is a brief review of my arguments for why Catholics should support gay marriage:
- Two gays getting married does not affect the life of a Catholic in any way, shape, or form.
- Like anyone else, gays have a right to be married and denying them this right is unethical and homophobic.
- My opponents argument against gay marriage is based off of the bible, which can be interpreted in many different ways, so basing your entire world view on a document that has no definite meaning and can't be proven to tell the truth is foolish.
Now let me respond to some of my opponents arguments:
"Spiritually, gay marriage does not effect us. However, legally it does. When two parents want to teach their children that gay marriage and gay intercourse is wrong, and that they should not support it, they could be fined."
This is plainly wrong. Gay marriage is legal in the U.S., but you can't be fined for teaching your children that gay intercourse is wrong. You are still protected by your freedom of speech. I challenge you to point out one law that punishes parents for teaching their children that gay intercourse is wrong.
"Another point being that just because it does not effect us, does not mean that we should not care or fight for it. If you don't, isn't that extremely selfish?"
No, that's extremely nosy. If two non-catholic, non-religious individuals of the same sex want to marry, how does that negatively affect you? Now, you can say that it's "god's command" that gays can't get married, but that is your god, and it is immoral for you to force your beliefs onto others.
"Maybe we should stop and submit into Satan. Maybe we shouldn't be Catholic because not EVERYONE believes in Catholicism."
That's not what I'm saying. I'm simply asking you to respect others beliefs and not enforce your religion onto everyone else.
"Marriage was created by God and for man and woman, which makes a sacred, religious, and sacramental thing that society and government have stolen and redefined."
As one commenter pointed out, marriage was invented before Christianity. It has not been "stolen" by society and the government, it has simply been utilized to bring two loving individuals together.
"In other words, being gay is NOT a sin, However the shameful acts in a "gay marriage" are. Having a same sex attraction is not a sin, in fact many gay people that are Catholic have devoted their lives into being chaste and focusing on God, not their temptations."
Nowhere in the passage prior to this quote did it state that gay marriage was a sin, it stated that having gay intercourse was a sin. So theoretically, if two gays wanted to be married and not have any gay intercourse, this would be fully sanctioned by the bible. I challenge you to point out one passage in the bible where god explicitly condemns gay marriage.
"As you can see, a gay and Catholic person also believes that a man was meant to be with a woman and that gay marriage is not right."
This person you are referencing is fully entitled to his belief and doesn't have to be homosexually married, however there are plenty of non-catholic homosexuals who wish to be married to someone they love and it is unethical for you to say that that is wrong because of your religion.
"The problem is that the government and society has redefined marriage for all people, not just people that support gay marriage."
The definition of marriage is malleable and your definition of marriage is not the same as everyone Else's. Different religions and governments have different interpretations of what marriage is and your definition in not necessarily better than anyone.
"Another point, just because you love someone, doesn't mean that you have to marry them. I love my best friend Sara, but that doesn't mean that I want to marry her, or to have sex with her. I think she's a beautiful strong young woman, and I love her like a sister, but I don't need to marry her to prove that."
When two gays get married they're not feeling friendship or "sisterly" love, they're feeling romantic and intimate love, the same kind of love that two straight partners feel.
"I am NOT homophobic. I respect gays as much as any other person on God's good planet. Just because a Catholic cannot go to a gay person's wedding, does not mean that we have automatically stopped loving them"
It doesn't matter how much you love gay people, refusing to go to a gay wedding and denying them the right to marry is homophobic. If you denied a certain race the right to marry, you would be considered racist. You are denying gays the right to marry so therefore, you are homophobic.
"I am saying that I believe in God, and this whole debate is the argument is that CATHOLICS should not support gay marriage. I couldn't care less what atheists, or anyone else believes or doesn't believe because that isn't my business. However, I do care about what other Christians believe because we actually have faith in a God that you claim "doesn't exist""
I am saying that CATHOLICS should support gay marriage because it doesn't affect them and it is a right. Different Christians have different interpretations of the bible, so you also shouldn't impose your beliefs onto them. I also never claimed god didn't exist, I just said that you can't prove that one does, so it's illogical to assume the existence of one with your argument.
"You are obviously not a Christian, because if you were, you wouldn't have all of the grammar mistakes that you had had in the previous round."
Really? You're actually making that argument?
"if anyone in the voting period could count the contender for grammar and spelling mistakes, that would be great unless you found more grammar mistakes in mine than his/hers"
Do grammar mistakes make my arguments less true/valid? No they don't. This is a desperate attempt by my opponent to win this debate.
1. selfishness: lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
Me, myself and I caused this whole problem with same-sex marriage; the want or need for something. The fact that gay people having same-sex attraction and feel the need to pull the other person into sin is merely caused by selfishness. You also stated, "Nowhere in the passage prior to this quote did it state that gay marriage was a sin, it stated that having gay intercourse was a sin. So theoretically, if two gays wanted to be married and not have any gay intercourse, this would be fully sanctioned by the bible."
The whole purpose of marriage is to have sex. If you got married, would you not consummate the marriage with your husband/wife? Even if it is theoretical, have you met anyone in your entire life that has not consummated their marriage? I know I haven't. Obviously gay people wanted it to be called a marriage so that they could have sex without it being a sin. However, even if two gay people are married, it is still a sin for them to have sex. You also may argue the point 'how is it still a sin to have sex if they are married?' According to natural law and the Bible, doing any kind of shameful acts with anyone whether you are gay or strait is a sin. However, doing gay acts in itself if a sin, meaning that a gay person who has sex in or out a marriage is in fact a sin.
2.Civil union: a legally recognized union of a same-sex couple, with rights similar to those of marriage.
The battle for homosexuality has been going on for decades. There has been an evolution from what "pro-gays" have been fighting. First, they fight for acceptance, which Catholics approved in 100%. All people deserve to be loved and accepted just the way they are. Then it turned into the wanting for a civil union. In the civil rights movement, gay people wanted to have the same rights as a married couple has, which we also supported. However, when they fought to call it a marriage, Catholics started to battle. A gay marriage is impossible. It cannot happen naturally. A journalist named Matt Walsh stated his opinion saying,"But whatever the Supreme Court says, the Truth remains the same: There is no right to gay marriage. There is no gay marriage. It"s not real. It"s not possible."
Gay marriage is unnatural, and cannot replace a natural marriage that can procreate. Therefore, it is not real or possible.
3. In your argument, you stated, "I challenge you to point out one passage in the bible where god explicitly condemns gay marriage."
Challenge accepted. I'll have you know that there are over 100 Bible passages that condemn gay relationships and gay marriage. Here are a few that I urge you to read for the purpose of this argument.
Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
Romans 1:26-28 "For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done."
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
1 Corinthians 7:2 "But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband."
I thought that the last one was interesting because God explicitly condemns gay marriage, which is exactly what you challenged me to do. Also, if you read all of them, not one of them was telling the people that having a gay partner was to be promoted. In fact, all of them were telling gay people that if they don't accept the word of God and ask for forgiveness, they shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
4. As I said in the last round, you are obviously not a Christian. The premise of this whole debate is gay people and Catholics. Although you have a decent argument in a "pro-gay" standpoint, we are not debating on "pro-gay" verses
"anti-gay". Therefore, your argument has no base. We are suppose to be arguing as if we are both Catholics (which is obvious that only one of us is) not in an atheist's standpoint. Therefore, your entire argument is invalid.
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