The Instigator
Westwinds1
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
lol101
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Gay marriage

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
lol101
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/23/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 756 times Debate No: 76882
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (30)
Votes (1)

 

Westwinds1

Pro

I believe that Homosexuals should be able to get married in the United Sates Of America for a variety of reasons. This debate is open to any one who wishes to oppose me.
lol101

Con

What are the "United Sates of America"? I do not believe in allowing gay marriage to happen in a place that doesn't exist. We cannot waste money trying to do the impossible. I negate the resolution that gay couples should be allowed to marry in a non-existent place, seeing as it would make no sense if it were impossible.

Pro has the BoP of proving that gay marriage should be legal in the United Sates of America.
Debate Round No. 1
Westwinds1

Pro

The united states of america is a place founded on the believe that people have the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness a country were the people are in control. In the constitution it states that all men and women are allowed to basic rights such as life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Therefore not allowing gay marriage is a contradiction to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They have the freedom (liberty) CHOOSE who they want to marry, and if it makes them happy and is not a direct threat to anyone or themselves then who's to tell them otherwise. It does not matter if america's existent or not because it is not harming anyone or themselves so who's to tell homosexuals not to marry, therefore making your existence argument invalid. Note: its best not to bring religion of philosophy into politics, use logic and reasoning.
lol101

Con

My argument cannot be invalid just because it's not harming anyone who wishes to marry in a non-existent place. That's not in contrast to what I said. It's not about whether it's right to marry in the "United Sates of America", it's about the fact that since it's impossible, there is no point of legalizing it. That would be the equivalent of legalizing Marijuana inside a made-up country inside the Moon.

As I have stated, you have the BoP of proving that the United SATES of America should legalize gay marriage, not the United States. I also have asked you what the United Sates is, and in return, you tell me what the United STATES of America is. They are not the same thing. Since Pro has failed to fulfill his/her defining of the term "sates", I shall do so.

Sates are not a place in which gay marriage can be legalized in, instead, they are "a Southeast Asian, especially Indonesian and Malaysian, dish of marinated, bite-size pieces of meat, skewered, barbecued, and usually served with a peanut-flavored dipping sauce."

Why should people marry inside food? The only kinds of people who could fit in there are tiny newborn babies, and I mean REALLY tiny. Not only would it be rare to find a pair of two tiny babies of the same gender, but I don't see the point of legalizing tiny babies to marry each other when they don't even know what it is. Why would we waste money (for buying sates for babies to marry in) and time just so a small amount of babies who don't know anything about the world yet can marry. It IS hurting people because the sates could probably heat up and even cook the babies.

Your claim that reasoning is better than philosophy and religion is only an opinion. Why?

So the Constitution says that happiness and pursuit of life should be garaunteed for everyone. How are we going to make newborn babies happy by cooking them alive in a sate, thus, reducing the population?

You said it yourself, "I believe Homosexuals should be able to get married in the United Sates Of America for a variety of reasons."
You have the burden of proof of supporting that people (babies) should be allowed to resort to same-sex marriage inside a sate.

You have also failed to debunk my claim properly, and have already established your debating topic. In return, since you have the BoP, you MUST prove what you have claimed.

Sources:
1]http://dictionary.reference.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Westwinds1

Pro

Now your arguing babies getting married, really? Not to be rude but your argument is false no where did I ever talk about babies getting married which in it's self is lunacy.
16 with parental consent but the other partner must be 18 or older. Younger with judicial consent (with no strict minimum age). With parental consent, serious reasons are required for a minor to marry; without parental consent, the unwillingness of the parents has to constitute an abuse. If that was some sort of ex-sample it did not work nor was it understandable so i'll take it as illogical cause i never was intoning that babies should be able to get married.
https://en.wikipedia.org...

I was never saying babies should get married I simply said, Should gays get married (within the the legal age of course) therefore debunking your babies argument. You also mentioned us wasting money to do something impossible, marriage only costs money for the two of the of the people in the marriage. It costs no state tax, no federal tax, nor any city tax all expenses are between the two. They pay for the cake, the chapel, and all other expenses therefore proving your statement wrong.

You also said that america does not exists which is also lunacy, that's also like saying Finland or japan is "non-exsistent" which is false. I get the idea that maybe the idea of it is "non-exsistent" but physically it is false. It is a land mass is it not? therefore the states within the land mass would also exist and to regulate the rights of it's people. Some rights should be regulated such as guns and drugs but marriage really!?!, no that's wrong people should be able to choose who they love and marry not be regulated. Who you love is who you love and that's final.

Also I introduce the sex argument, a gay guy could not get an erection from a girl. Vise-versa a lesbian could not get aroused to a guy. Therefore it is not a choice to be gay and to oppress people for something they can't help is morally wrong no matter if you believe america exists or not it is wrong to oppress a particular group of people.
lol101

Con

I never said that America was non-existent, I stated that something OF the United States was a non-existent place.

You still haven't defended would could have been a grammar error in your first claim. You said "sates", and I am talking about sates, yet you keep on assuming that I am talking about states. Sates are food, not a place that exists within America.

If I say Godzilla of Japan doesn't exist, I am not saying that Japan doesn't exist, I am saying Godzilla doesn't exist.

You also haven't refuted my kritik on "sates". I provide a definition, and in return, you do not rebut it by making a solid point.

You failed to clarify that you were talking about people over 18, so why should I make the assump that you were talking about said people? My argument is that only tiny babies could fit in sates. Otherwise, what are we going to do? I guess we could still make giant sates for people to marry in, but that would be pointless. Since we would have to pay for huge sates, then yes, money will be spent.

A gay couple can still feel heat, seeing as they would slowly get cooked inside a sate. You haven't properly refuted any of my claims about sates, your argument is basically: "Really? Now you're bringing babies into this?" That is not a proper rebuttals. And since we are discussing sates, all of your rebuttals are invalid. You never gave me a specific age for marriage, and I never clarified that you mentioned babies. But since you failed to establish the age, I had to get the ball rolling. Now you must refute this: Why should a gay couple of people over 18 hold a marriage inside a giant sate? I do not want a mere opinion of: "Really? THAT'S your argument?" Give me actual reasoning on why that should be legal, since you established that people should be allowed to marry in sates. I do not question gay marriage itself, as you keep assuming that I do, I only question the idea of them marrying in sates.

Your sex argument isn't specific enough. What's so bad about having erections or having sex with a different gender? Are there statistics that suggest that sex or erections are bad? What is it that is so negative about sex and erections?
Debate Round No. 3
Westwinds1

Pro

State: 1. the particular condition that someone or something is in at a specific time.
State: 2. a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government.
https://en.wikipedia.org...

All my evidence is right here proving you States argument wrong, you declared that states were a South Asian food which they are not as you can see by my second definition at the top. This was of google definitions so you can most likely count on it and for my wiki source at the top it specifically states what a state is. You should have read my first debate more car fully I said United States Of America implying the actual states of America such as Virginia or California.

Also I specifically said in my last argument and I quote "16 with parental consent but the other partner must be 18 or older. Younger with judicial consent (with no strict minimum age). With parental consent, serious reasons are required for a minor to marry; without parental consent, the unwillingness of the parents has to constitute an abuse. I assuming you already new the legal age since you were from america. I did not put a age because I also assumed I was going to be debating with a intellectual person who would not use "Food" and "Babies" as rational debating materiel.
https://en.wikipedia.org......

Yes my sex argument is specific enough, you implied that I said erections and sex were Bad which I did not I said and I quote again " Also I introduce the sex argument, a gay guy could not get an erection from a girl. Vise-versa a lesbian could not get aroused to a guy. Therefore it is not a choice to be gay and to oppress people for something they can't help is morally wrong no matter if you believe america exists or not it is wrong to oppress a particular group of people."
I don't know how you got erections are bad out of that I was simply saying that being gay is not a choice as many believe it to be. No it is not bad to have sex with the opposite gender nor the same gender, what's your point? www.livescience.com/50058-being-gay-not-a-choice.html

I also ask next time you accept one of my debates (if you do) that you do not troll, because you were ether trolling this whole time or just being flat out ignorant.

Also the supreme court just ruled today that gay marriage will be legalized, you have nothing now do you? www.cnn.com/2015/06/26/politics/supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-ruling/
lol101

Con

Right off the bat, I am already noticing some fatal flaws that hurt my opponent's case.

Let's start off with the fact that my opponent has provided a definition much later than I did. Since it's also just the implementation of a definition, and is not a kritik on my definition, my definition of the word "sates" remains solid.

Your so-called evidence does not prove my case wrong due to a major hole in your claim. I did not say that states are Asian dishes, I stated that SATES are Asian dishes. Those are two totally different words. Since your statement is not true, your rebuttal on my sates argument has collapsed entirely.

I read your first argument carefully, and you said SATES. Hence your quote in Round 1: "I believe that Homosexuals should be able to get married in the United Sates Of America for a variety of reasons." I would use this debate as a source, but anybody can just read your claim in Round 1 to know that you said "sates". Your argument is invalid.

Your sex argument is not sound. I had to assume you meant that erections and sex are bad, since I don't know why else you would put that there. Your whole statement involves two points: 1) That erections and sex won't occur for gays 2) That being gay is not a choice and they cannot help it. First of all, you speak of these points as if they are in relation to each other. They are not. One point is about sex and erections, and another is about naturally being gay. You just say that gay people won't get erections and a lesbian would not get aroused with a guy. Are you trying to say that's a good thing? What is it about sex and erections that may be beneficial or not? You just state that gay/lesbians won't be attracted to the opposite gender without taking a clear position on the topic. What is it about sex and erections that is so important? And now that I have officially refuted your "states definition" argument, it's fair to say that any point of yours about it being wrong/right for gays to marry is invalid. Since we are discussing sates, I think it's wrong or immoral to cook (or at least heat up to extreme temperatures) a gay couple. You have not refuted that claim, thus, it stands strong. That's my point. I believe the real question is, what's your point?

I am not trolling, you put the word "sates" in your first claim. You did not refute my definition quickly enough and have failed to refute my case as a whole. You only make the bare assertion that I am a troll. But by my definition of troll that can't be right. Troll-"a dwarf or giant in Scandinavian folklore inhabiting caves or hills". I don't know why I would be debating online if I lived in the caves. I think you're the one who's being ignorant.

And finally, for the final major flaw. So you're using the Supreme Court as reasoning for why gay marriage should be legal? You cannot piggyback off of the Supreme Court and treat that as your own argument. This argument would make sense if the topic was "Gay marriage will be legal". Since I would've been wrong about gsy marriage not being legal, I would have lost. But just because something happened doesn't mean it should be legal. People still debate about whether cigarettes should be legal, even though it's already legal everywhere. The "this is legal right now argument so it SHOULD be legal" argument is flawed. You need to specify WHY something should be legal, not that it is legal. Maybe if you could have used some points that were made in the Supreme Court case, then that would've made sense. But instead, you just decided to piggyback off of the Supreme Court and use that as an argument. Now please tell me, why would you assume that I "have nothing?" Are you simply underestimating me by assuming that this dull point actually refutes my argument?

I would like to point out that my opponent hasn't fully rebutted my case, meanwhile, I have rebutted all of my opponent's points in his/her case. As a whole, my opponent's arguments fail, since he/she has not specified all of his/her points and did not fully rebut my case. I have refuted both my opponent's case and his/her rebuttals.

Vote Con
Debate Round No. 4
30 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by lol101 1 year ago
lol101
Also keep in mind that if you do not specify your arguments enough, then the "reasoning" side of the debate can easily be refuted. Since you also had the Burden of Proof, anyone who accepted the debate will either come up with a case of their own to share the BoP, or they will only refute your case. I would come up with some rules for the debate like: "Do not troll" or "No kritiks/semantics". That way, your opponent will have to either come up with a case, or attempt to refute yours by using reasoning of their own. If you DO come across a troll, then it's best to instantly refute it and tell them why their argument doesn't work, rather than just saying "Really? Now you're discussing _______?"
Posted by lol101 1 year ago
lol101
Exactly. I won't play an absurd role if I ever debate you again, Westwinds1. However, if you ever come across someone who is trying to come up with a ridiculous argument, refute it as soon as possible. Your opponent's argument will instantly collapse.
Posted by KroneckerDelta 1 year ago
KroneckerDelta
@Westwind1 I just want to point out that, in my view, CON won on a technicality. And some are stricter on that than I tend to be. I stated that I would have accepted a clarification in Round 3 (after CONs Round 2) because, honestly, I didn't understand CONs Round 1 acceptance (it sounded weird because I didn't catch the "SATES" vs. "STATES" distinction). So because I, as a judge, didn't catch it, I wouldn't have faulted PRO for not catching it initially. HOWEVER, PROs Round 3 seemed to completely misunderstand CONs Round 2 argument and even attempted to rebut stances that CON never put forth (e.g. "Now your arguing babies getting married..."--this seemed to be attempting to point out a slippery slope argument and that wasn't the point CON was making).

PROs Round 3 should have been a paragraph or two explaining the absurdity of CONs interpretation of the debate and then a simple statement that CON has not refuted any arguments made in PROs Round 2 and thus those arguments stand. This would have either 1) forced CON to rebut Round 2 arguments or 2) to double down on their kritik and that since PRO didn't address it in Round 2, that the kritik stands (I would have disagreed with that stance had PRO simply pointed out the absurdity of the kritik). Instead, PRO didn't address the kritik at all (until, in passing, Round 4) and thus a judge cannot disagree with the kritik simply because they find it absurd--that argument MUST be presented by PRO to be judged on.
Posted by KroneckerDelta 1 year ago
KroneckerDelta
@lol101 F-16_Fighting_Falcon withdrew his contention against me...although the vote remains removed. I believe I could add it again (since my voting rights have been reinstated) but since apparently someone is going to report every vote for CON in this debate (although I agree the second vote was very unspecific) I don't want to re-vote just to have a different moderator take down my vote.
Posted by lol101 1 year ago
lol101
F-16_Fighting_Falcon wants everybody to be specific. At times, I think he can nitpick WAY too harshly. What else would Kronecker Delta be referring to by using the words "debate" and "argument"? I very well understand why you reported me for my poor voting style, but this is beyond unacceptable. I think that this was a poor moderating choice by F-16_Fighting_Falcon, because he complains about Kronecker Delta being generic and unspecific, while he doesn't really explain much of the matter himself. "Lack of specifics on the arguments point. This voter refers to "the debate" and "that argument" without specifying what those arguments are." is just too weak to convince me that this vote should be removed. And since Kronecker Delta just explained why your removal of voting was unjustified, you have yet to counter that. Since that point has been refuted, all that's left is "Lack of specifics on the arguments point." He mentioned that Pro failed over and over to address that my arguments were invalid and didn't do so correctly. Since the debate solely relied on the definition, if Pro doesn't refute my one point that counters his/her first claim, then I automatically win, since I fulfilled my position of refuting my opponent's arguments and decided this debate. You are the one not being specific.

-lol101
Posted by lol101 1 year ago
lol101
And even so, I refuted the main arguments that were presented. I told my opponent about why his/her argument didn't work. I refuted the pursuit of happiness argument, the sex argument, etc. My opponent has only used generic claims without using good enough reasoning. Since my opponent has the BoP, I have fulfilled my job in rebutting the opponent's claims and coming up with my own case, in which Pro never refuted. It's not about who you agree with or who's trolling, it's about who's able to argue/refute better. Pro failed to establish the argument and did not refute my kritik entirely. This means I would lose conduct, (in some people's opinion) but it doesn't count for arguments. I have clearly fulfilled my job as Con, and my opponent hasn't fulfilled his/her job as Pro.
Posted by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 1 year ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
==================================================================
>Reported vote: HermanGomez95// Mod action: Removed<

3 points to Con (S&G, Sources). Reasons for voting decision: 1.) This topic is a personal favorite of mine to debate. 2.) I'll admit that Con's grammar arguments were quite entertaining.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) No explanation for sources point. (2) Lack of specifics on S&G.
===========================================================================
Posted by KroneckerDelta 1 year ago
KroneckerDelta
@dsjpk5 So you basically rejected CON's argument because you disagreed with it. The problem is that it's improper for the judge job to debate the debators. Therefore your argument that CON's argument is "trolling" was really never presented in the debate (had it been, I would completely agree that PRO would be the proper vote). it was mentioned in passing in PRO's final round, but even there, PRO didn't really address CON's argument; and even so, imo, the last round is far too late to finally address CON's argument.
Posted by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
I think the proper way to vote on this debate would be to give conduct and arguments to Pro. Sure, Pro misspelled "states" wrong one time, but it was clear by the context of Pro's comments that He was referring to the United. States of America. After all, Pro goes on to spell states correctly the rest of the way. With this in mind, it's clear that Con is trolling with his dates comment. This is why Pro should be awarded conduct.

Arguments: Pro bases his argument on the ideal laid out in one of our founding documents..
The pursuit of happiness. Pro makes the argument that gay marriage is what some people need to be happy, and therefore should be allowed in keeping with our ideals. Con, since he never stopped trolling, left this compelling argument from Pro unrefuted.
Posted by KroneckerDelta 1 year ago
KroneckerDelta
And I want to rant just a little bit further. The moderator "accuses" me of being non-specific yet the very reason for the removal of my vote is EXTRAORDINARILY unspecific. It says that I don't specify arguments about "that argument" and "the debate" yet my vote, in the context of this debate, is extremely clear. The moderator should attempt to justify WHY it is that when I said (in my original vote) "the argument" and "the debate" is unclear (i.e. what possible interpretations of my statements, within the context of this debate, are possible). Because merely stating it's unclear without context is EXTREMELY misleading--it's not like I said: I don't accept PROs arguments therefore CON is correct--in fact it's quite the contrary. I actually AGREE with PROs stance but the problem (as laid out in my original vote) is that CON redefined the debate and PRO never rebutted this redefinition. This was explicitly stated in my reason for a vote for CON, e.g. "...PRO agreed to CONs interpretation..."
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by KroneckerDelta 1 year ago
KroneckerDelta
Westwinds1lol101Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: I have to give conduct to PRO because CON clearly never intended to debate what was obviously the topic. Having said that, CON explained in their opening argument that they interpreted the debate as "...of the United SATES"--not "STATES"--and made this assumption VERY explicit in Round 2 of the debate. All PRO needed to do was clarify the debate in Round 2 and point out the absurdity of CONs assumption about the debate (and I would have even accepted this clarification as late as round 3 after CON made their argument painfully clear in Round 2). Since PRO didn't address CONs interpretation that this was "...of the United SATES", not "STATES", I see that as an argument conceded by PRO and since that argument defined the debate, PRO agreed to CONs interpretation and thus all arguments made by PRO were irrelevant to the debate (and CON pointed out that PROs arguments were irrelevant). Therefore I must give arguments to CON.