The Instigator
benshapirohero
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
THEFELLDRAGON
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Gender isn't alterable- we're either female or male

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/8/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 519 times Debate No: 94539
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (16)
Votes (0)

 

benshapirohero

Pro

Alright, this is my first post but don't go easy on me.
Let's get right down to it.

1. Quite simply, when we're born we are either male or a female.
2. Having false beliefs about our gender identity can be classified as a disorder. Think of an anorexic who thinks (s)he's fat when (s)he's really not.

I believe people with any type of disorder deserve compassion. This includes not indulging their false beliefs about themselves, just as we shouldn't go around telling anorexics their fat
THEFELLDRAGON

Con

Alright, I accept the challenge. This is my first debate as well, so we'll be evenly matched.

Main arguments:
1. According to the Oxford Dictionary, gender is defined as "The state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones)". Gender isn't a biological trait that you are born with, it's simply a social class.
2. There are procedures that can allow one to obtain the features of the opposite sex. Thus it is alterable.
Debate Round No. 1
benshapirohero

Pro

Your definition says gender is "used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones"

I can see why you'd like to argue that gender is more cultural and social rather than biological- we both know there is no disputing biology, chromosomes, and genitalia.

Yet you contradicted yourself in saying that sex-change procedures (biological alterations) change a person's gender. If gender is purely social and cultural, how does one of these procedures alter one's gender?
THEFELLDRAGON

Con

My second point was made in case we wished to argue my first point.

I'd like to take a look at your first point. You're completely right, however, I fail to see how this makes gender or sex unalterable. One may be born blonde but later on in life, they change it to brown.

I'd also like to mention that a disorder is a condition that affects a person's well being. How does being transgender affect anyone's health? Anorexia is a serious issue that can cause death. How does that compare?
Debate Round No. 2
benshapirohero

Pro

"My second point was made in case we wished to argue my first point."
?

"How does being transgender affect anyone's health?"
Entertaining a delusion challenges nature and reality. (I promise you, nature and reality will always win.)
Since transgenders are up against these unthinkable opponents, they're often experiencing great mental turmoil. This can seriously affect their mental health
If you don't believe me consider that transgenders are 20 times more likely to commit suicide than we are.
THEFELLDRAGON

Con

Yes, they do experience mental turmoil and are more likely to commit suicide. However, this is because they are constantly being told that it's wrong, sinful, unmoral, etc. They deal with much more discrimination then the average person. It is well known that someone who is bullied, is much more likely to go into depression. Being transgender is just another trait that leaves one as being a target for mistreatment. Are you saying that it's a disorder because of how other people act?
Debate Round No. 3
benshapirohero

Pro

I agree with you. Transgenders do catch a lot of hate.
So do blacks, Jews, Mexicans, gays etc..
But they don't have a suicide nearly as tragic as our fellow transgenders.

That's because being black, Jewish, Mexican, or gay isn't the result of a mental illness.

And in case you're going to say transgenders experience harsher discrimination, tell that to the Jews. They still have it pretty hard...
THEFELLDRAGON

Con

According to American Psychological Association, "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder."

They also state, "Force released a report in 2011 entitled Injustice at Every Turn, which confirmed the pervasive and severe discrimination faced by transgender people."
Debate Round No. 4
benshapirohero

Pro

I never used the word "psychological state."
I said "mental illness"- which is "characterized by dysregulation of mood, thought, and/or behavior" (cdc.gov)

Anyways, your definition said "only if it causes distress OR disability.
So if a condition doesn't cause distress, as long as it is disabling, it fits your credentials.
Delusion is disabling, so being transgender perfectly fits your definition of a psychological state.

This is my last post. I appreciate your time.
Maybe we could hang? ;)
THEFELLDRAGON

Con

You continue to repeat yourself that transgender people are delusional but you have nothing to back it up, except for your own opinions.

You also said that it is a disability because of the mental distress causes. So then, how can you still argue that it is a disability in cases where there is no distress?

And even if we were to call it an illness, it doesn't change the fact that gender and sex are indeed alterable.

I thank for your time as well. I look forward to any future conversations.
Debate Round No. 5
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by whiteflame 5 months ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: JimShady// Mod action: Removed<

3 points to Pro (Arguments), 3 points to Con (S&G, Sources). Reasons for voting decision: Gender isn't alterable, unless you can exchange a penis for a vagina, go to every cell and get some new DNA, and do all that while living. Marilyn Monroe has a penis and talks like a man, because he is a man. He might like being called a woman and dressing like one, but his biology is not arguable/debatable. Therefore, I could never really vote with THEFELLDRAGON on the actual issue. But as far as conduct, both of you were courteous. Spelling and grammar was almost tied, but benshapirohero forgot to add periods in a few places. i was more convinced with the Pros arguments, but sources were more abundant with the Con. That being said, I don't agree with the Oxford dictionaries' definition. Good debating to both of you.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) Arguments are insufficiently explained. The voter is required to specifically assess arguments made by both sides in the debate use those assessments to determine an outcome. Merely stating the voter's own views on whether or not gender is alterable does not suffice, as the voter must not introduce their own arguments as reasons to vote. (2) S&G is insufficiently explained. This point can only be awarded in instances where one side's argument is difficult to understand as a result of how it's written. (3) Sources are insufficiently explained. The voter is required to assess the reliability (i.e. the quality) of the sources given. Merely assessing abundance is never sufficient.
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Posted by whiteflame 5 months ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: BackCommander// Mod action: Removed<

6 points to Con (Conduct, Arguments, Sources). Reasons for voting decision: Con points out in round #1 that due to Pro choosing the word "gender" instead of "sex" they are debating about the very definition of that word, rather than the subject Pro had intended. Pro ignored this which doesn't constitute a conduct loss all on it's own, but Con brings up this same unopposed point in the next round and it is ignored again. Con's argument is more convincing due to the definition of "gender" completely negating Pro's entire argument. Con used Oxford dictionary, which was the only source used in this debate, netting him the sources vote.

[*Reason for removal*] While arguments and sources are sufficiently explained, conduct is not. Repeatedly ignoring an argument is grounds for awarding arguments, as the voter did, but not conduct. Unless the debater was outright rude in their determination not to respond to an argument (i.e. they were insulting about it), this is not a viable reason to award conduct.
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Posted by benshapirohero 6 months ago
benshapirohero
sorry about that...
I being rushed by my siblings so I didn't get to finish.

Also, this is getting kinda heated, so I just want to cool things down a little.
I'll send you a friend request ;)

"What is the difference? How do transgender people have 'delusions'? If someone is attracted to the same sex, how is that different from someone who identifies as the opposite gender (even though it may not be, physically, their sex). Sex and gender are different."
Gay people aren't delusional. They are in fact attracted to the same sex.

"By saying that having a transgender identity is a mental illness, you are challenging science."
No, I'm challenging scientists who are wrong. Since I'm ahead of my time, I can understand how this seems radical right now...

"If you really thought transgender people were equal to you and I, then you would accept that they do not have 'delusions' or a 'mental illness' as credible scientists contradict you."
It's a logical fallacy to assume that because someone is well educated, they are 100% correct. (Google alchemists, phrenologists, ect.)
Also, I see it as more cruel to deny a person treatment than to help them with their problems.

Just to add, I'm going to be a psychologist one day :)
Already studying
Haha- don't worry, I probably won't be seeing a lot of transgenders, since they're not looking to be cured
Posted by justsayinalot 6 months ago
justsayinalot
... What is the difference? How do transgender people have 'delusions'? If someone is attracted to the same sex, how is that different from someone who identifies as the opposite gender (even though it may not be, physically, their sex). Sex and gender are different. Gender is who you identify as (with all of the associated characteristics of that gender... women=nurturing) while sex is what you are born as. For example, some people are born with both sex organs, thus are hermaphrodites (dif. from transgender people). What would you recommend hermaphrodites to identify as? Is that as wrong as identifying with another gender?
As to the superiority, how am I putting thoughts in your head? Your thoughts are your own. I'm just discussing this with you... If you really thought transgender people were equal to you and I, then you would accept that they do not have 'delusions' or a 'mental illness' as credible psychologists contradict you. If that is so, then you are going out of your way to say that there is a scientific reason why it is wrong to identify with another gender. These are obvious personal reasons, not scientific reasons, for why you reject transgender people.
Posted by benshapirohero 6 months ago
benshapirohero
First, being gay or bisexual is not a delusion- they really are attracted to the same sex.

Also, Please don't put thoughts in my head. I don't think any human is superior than another.

I have to go now :(
I'll finish later thank you for your time
Posted by justsayinalot 6 months ago
justsayinalot
That sounds an awful lot like what people used to say about gay people. That they "indulges in a delusion obviously isn't completely mentally healthy. This makes them more susceptible to suicide.
So being transgender doesn't cause suicide. What causes transgenderism (mental illness) also causes suicide. So the underlying mental illness is to blame.

The good news is mental illness can be treated and even cured.
We can't deny transgenders treatment at the expense of being politically correct."
I'm pretty sure conversion therapy for gay/bisexual people hasn't been proven to work. In fact, it increases the likelihood of suicide. Denying people their right to exist as they please (in non-destructive ways that do not harm themselves or others) then takes something away from them. It shows that you do not respect them and think you better than them.
Also, you assume to know more about it than actual psychologists (see link below). The APA does not consider transgender identity to be a mental illness. By saying that having a transgender identity is a mental illness, you are challenging science. If you continuously challenge science to try to prove that a group of people is mentally ill, then you degrade actually mentally ill people and their progress in addressing their own disorder (depression, schizophrenia, etc.) by suggesting 'mentally ill' is a term that can be thrown out there to maintain any political or social belief you have. In addition, it suggests that transgender people are somehow beneath you because, despite the science not supporting you, you just know that transgender people need help. It suggests inferiority because there is no scientific backing yet you insist that there's something wrong with transgender people due to their "delusions."
Also, who says transgender people want to be "cured?"
http://www.apa.org...
Posted by benshapirohero 6 months ago
benshapirohero
Anyone who indulges in a delusion obviously isn't completely mentally healthy. This makes them more susceptible to suicide.
So being transgender doesn't cause suicide. What causes transgenderism (mental illness) also causes suicide. So the underlying mental illness is to blame.

The good news is mental illness can be treated and even cured.
We can't deny transgenders treatment at the expense of being politically correct.
Posted by justsayinalot 6 months ago
justsayinalot
Ok, then if you don't think of them as being inferior, and there is some other reason, then what would it be? That transgender people are unhinged? What are you suggesting by that there's more to it than "getting called names"?
Posted by benshapirohero 6 months ago
benshapirohero
"Correlation isn't always causation. You can't just assume that their identity is the reason for their increased suicidal ideation/actions. Transgender people are more likely to experience discrimination or prejudice."

But there's more to the transgender suicide rate than getting called names and experiencing prejudice.
Posted by benshapirohero 6 months ago
benshapirohero
"The other explanation (which you implied) suggests your perceived superiority to people who identify as transgender."
Quite simply, no I don't. We're all equal ;)
No votes have been placed for this debate.