The Instigator
josh.dinkus
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
64bithuman
Con (against)
Winning
2 Points

George Bush jr is a bad man

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
64bithuman
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/11/2015 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 495 times Debate No: 76455
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (2)

 

josh.dinkus

Pro

I am arguing that George Bush Jr is a bad man. Con make the first move.
64bithuman

Con


I’ll ask Pro to properly define ‘bad’.


I’ll be arguing that while Bush was arguably one of the worst presidents we’ve ever had, at no point did he honestly suffer the fault of being a ‘bad man’. He was a Texan ruled by a strict Christian moral code. Although he was incredibly ignorant, to the point of looking like a buffoon, at no point did he purposely do evil. Take for example, a man like Pol Pot, certainly a bad man, who spread quotes like “We will burn the old grass and the new will grow.” That is a ‘bad man’.


Even during what I would call an illegal and disastrous war in Iraq, Bush maintained, both among staff and with the public, that the war was being fought on just and fair democratic grounds. I treat Bush a bit like I might treat a child. He’s almost blissfully ignorant. The image of Bush is more complicated than just ‘good’ or ‘bad’. He was driven by staunch morals, and said things like, “One of my proudest moments is I didn't sell my soul for the sake of popularity.”


I would argue that Bush was, especially in his first term, merely a puppet president. Men like Karl Rove, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney by all evidences and personal accounts actually pulled many of the strings. Bush’s nickname for Rove as a “Boy Genius”, and left him in the chair position of the White House Iraq Group. This group was the chief executive branch during the run-up to the war in Iraq. In reality, it acted a bit like a propaganda machine. This is really where the lies and nonsense were cooked up. Bush’s job was essentially to receive this propaganda and broadcast it. It’s hard to blame him; he wasn’t incredibly sharp, and the people he surrounded himself with gave him bad information over and over.


For example, a memo leaked from the WHIG about how to address the Yellowcake forgery:


“The plan: Release all relevant information. Try to shift attention back to Bush's leadership in the war on terrorism. Diminish the significance of that single piece of iffy intelligence by making the case that Saddam was a threat for many other reasons. Put Republican lawmakers and other Bush allies on TV to defend him.


Most important: Question the motives of Democrats who supported the war but now are criticizing the president.”


It’s hard to deny the puppetry going on. The yellowcake documents, for example, were pushed by the CIA as near-fact when in reality they knew they were not reliable. Cheney was undoubtedly the most powerful VP in American history. He was behind a great deal of the propaganda surrounding the Iraq War. If Bush wanted guidance, Cheney always had the last word.


You can’t honestly say he was a ‘bad man’. He was misguided, perhaps – even a terrible president, but not morally bad. That is just to simplistic.


Debate Round No. 1
josh.dinkus

Pro

Ill focus on Bush and the Iraq war, first point being that Bush didn't have a legitimate reason to start a war to begin with. After the events of 9/11 Bush passed the Patriot Act (providing appropriate tools to interfere and obstruct terrorism act) on his own accord and with almost no congressional approval which gave him acting rights to invade Iraq. 63% of Americans wanted Bush to find a diplomatic solution rather than go to war, and 62% believed the threat of terrorism directed against the U.S. would increase due to war.

Secondly, one of Bush's reasons for invading Iraq was because he was convinced the enemy was hiding weapons of mass destruction, which there was never any real evidence of being true. Seems like an excuse to invade a country to me. http://www.salon.com...

Lastly to prove that Bush was a "bad" or immoral man I want to talk about the tactics he used. After the Patriot Act the rights to privacy of americans were attacked. The Patriot Act increases the government's surveillance powers in four areas:

Records searches. It expands the government's ability to look at records on an individual's activity being held by third parties. (Section 215)
Secret searches. It expands the government's ability to search private property without notice to the owner. (Section 213)
Intelligence searches. It expands a narrow exception to the Fourth Amendment that had been created for the collection of foreign intelligence information (Section 218).
"Trap and trace" searches. It expands another Fourth Amendment exception for spying that collects "addressing" information about the origin and destination of communications, as opposed to the content (Section 214). The Patriot Act increases the government's surveillance powers in four areas:https://www.aclu.org...
This man took away his citizens rights much like dictators have done in the past. Other dictator-like behaviour includes the torture that americans took part in against prisoners during the Iraq conflict. War crimes people, much like Pol Pot that you mentioned.

In conclusion, besides doing a bad job of running a country George Bush was actually delusional and immoral and a bad man in my opinion.
64bithuman

Con

Thanks for the quick reply Pro.

Most of Pro’s proof lies on the Iraq war, which, in the last round I showed largely wasn’t of George Bush’s design. He was fed bad information, and most of the aggression and even the policy behind the Iraq war was a Rumsfeld/Cheney brainchild. The Patriot act was all Cheney; being an obsessive personality, who from day one was deeply concerned with safeguarding America as well as increasing what he saw as unfairly diminished Presidential power.

Cheney worked for Nixon and was a spitting image. He had drawn up plans to invade Iraq and kill Saddam in 1990. Literally minutes after 9/11 Cheney was contacting his staff to find a link to Iraq. The Patriot Act was everything Cheney wanted, not everything Bush wanted.

Pro quotes a stat that isn’t entirely representative of popular opinion post 9/11. Polls showed that after 9/11 only 42% opposed a war in Iraq, while a majority voted for it. The Christian Right proved quite powerful in its persuasion as well; for example, the Land Letter. In February 2003, popular support against the Iraq war went down to only 27%, and a majority of the population believed that Iraq was probably linked to 9/11 – (so did Bush, for that matter). Again, you can’t say it was some kind of insane radical departure. Many popular voices called for war. It took until June 2005 for a majority to turn against the Iraq War.

I don’t make the mistake of assuming that the Iraq war was an immoral war. Strategic blunder, perhaps, but immoral, no. It hoped to overthrow a wicked, evil man and establish a working democracy. It hoped to save a population that had been gassed with neurotoxins, routinely kidnapped and tortured and otherwise terrorized by its government. Saddam was a ruthless tyrant, and Iraq was a state sponsor of terrorism.

Indeed, the threat of nuclear armament is not something to take lightly. How can you say that is immoral? How can you say that Bush had no legitimate reason? If you want to be pessimistic, even the promise of unrestricted Kurdish oil is a legitimate reason, I hate to say.

As for the torture, that was again a Cheney/Rumsfeld movement. Rumsfeld set the tone in the Pentagon. It was Rumsfeld who directly supervised the army field manuals that condoned torture and waterboarding. He arranged the legal memos for torture techniques to be approved, and personally invited high-ranking US commanders to introduce new techniques in the field. He sent General Geoffrey Miller to go from Guantanamo to Abu Ghraib – it was his fault that the terrible abuses occurred.

Cheney and his gang of freaks were just as bad. For example, Cheney and his lawyer David Addington set up a kind of secret intelligence service that funneled information from the Pentagon directly to Cheney. He kept closer tabs on intelligence than Bush did – a man who didn’t often read the reports. He collected many followers in the Pentagon and routinely exercised his power. The linking of Iraq to 9/11 was a top priority for Cheney. When the evidence emerged showing that he had concocted much of the evidence, it was Cheney who pushed for extreme practises of torture, perhaps in vain, trying to find some kind of a link that wasn’t there.

His friend John Yoo, for example, a lawyer for Bush, was tasked by Cheney with drafting the legal memos to expand administrative powers. It was Yoo, Cheney and a small group of lawyers that write and passed most of the blatantly unconstitutional papers. Cheney, ever a master of spin, still says stuff like, “Waterboarding, the way we did it, was, in fact, not torture” and loves to repeat things like “Well, torture, to me…is an American citizen on a cell phone making a last call to his four young daughters shortly before he burns to death in the upper levels of the Trade Center in New York City on 9/11.

To compare Pol Pot to the Bush administration is just outrageous. Pol Pot slaughtered 3 Million people in four years! Pol Pot was a Communist dictator who kidnapped millions and forced them to work in collective farms and work camps. That is hardly a fair comparison.



Sources:

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.pbs.org...
http://en.wikiquote.org...
http://www.gallup.com...
http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://tortureaccountability.org...
http://tortureaccountability.org...
http://www.theatlantic.com...

Debate Round No. 2
josh.dinkus

Pro

josh.dinkus forfeited this round.
64bithuman

Con

Forfeit, my points carry on.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by josh.dinkus 2 years ago
josh.dinkus
"Bad" as in delusional and immoral
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Texas14 2 years ago
Texas14
josh.dinkus64bithumanTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Arguments were about even and FF.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
josh.dinkus64bithumanTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeited a round