The Instigator
tmhustler
Pro (for)
Winning
17 Points
The Contender
JBlake
Con (against)
Losing
8 Points

George W. Bush was not one of the top 5 worst president.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
tmhustler
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/5/2009 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,189 times Debate No: 9135
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (38)
Votes (4)

 

tmhustler

Pro

to start I will clarify my position and the argument
for me to claim victory in this debate I must show that there have been 5 worse presidents. to do this I must show that there presidencies have had a greater detrimental effect on the society.

con. first round they will give reasons why G.W.B was the worst president ever.

pro.2nd round I will refute and explain why other presidents were worse.
JBlake

Con

I would like to open by thanking T.M. Hustler for providing me with this opportunity to debate the topic of presidential ranking. Good Luck!

I will note that Pro has accepted the greater burden in this debate. He is making the claim that he can find five presidents that were worse than George W. Bush and support why they were worse. I contend that he cannot.

In order to win this debate, Pro will need to demonstrate that there are at least five (5) presidents who were worse, on balance, than Ge. Bush. For Con to win this debate, Con will need to demonstrate that Pro cannot show there to be five (5) worse presidents.

=======

Pro has asked me to include some of the reasons why Bush is among the five worst presidents. I will enumerate them below:

The Bush Administration is responsible for the unpopular War in Iraq. The war was initiated on false pretenses (whether everyone knew them to be false or not).
His administration not only allowed torture, but attempted to justify it as well.
His administration presided over the worst financial collapse, reportedly, since the Great Depression.
His administration failed to quickly and decisively handle the situation in Louisiana (and New Orleans) during Hurricane Katrina.
His administration suspended Habeas Corpus (Military Commissions Act of 2006).
His administration passed the Patriot Act, some portions of which have been condemned as violations of constitutional rights.
Wire Tapping of U.S. citizens.
A disastrous foreign policy (specifically, the refusal to negotiate with belligerent nations).

I reserve the right to include more reasons in later rounds, should the need arise.

I eagerly await the response from my opponent.
Debate Round No. 1
tmhustler

Pro

I thank my opponent for exception this debate
for my second round I will only name three presidents that did a worse job I am doing this for the sake of brevity

my first example of a president that did a worse job G.W.B. is James Buchanan.

! he was a slavery advocate, in the supreme courts Dred Scott case he personally lobbied his fellow Pennsylvanian Justice Robert Cooper Grier to vote with the majority to uphold the right of owning slave property. he tried to push the lecompton constitution of Kansas threw congress in an attempt to make Kansas a slave state, he even went so For as to offer appointments and cash bribes to secure votes. this alone makes him a worse president but I will go on

on financial issues he was the president during the panic of 1857 which was the worst economic downturn in US history until the great depression. he was also the first person to finance US debts.

now onto just plain bad decision making if you think George bush made bad decision invading Iraq with faulty intelligence Buchanan invaded the Utah territory because someone told him Governor Brigham Young was starting a revolt witch tuned out not to be true. he was such a poor decision maker that when the south seceded e thought it best to do nothing.

now onto president Andrew Johnson the first president to be impeached

everyone of the governors he appointed in former confederate states passed black codes that gave all freed slaves second class status. worse than that was when the congress passed the first civil rights bill Johnson vetoed it
Johnson, in a letter to Governor Thomas C. Fletcher of Missouri, wrote, "This is a country for white men, and by God, as long as I am President, it shall be a government for white men."[20]{Wikipedia} I would say he was a worse president than GWB because in a time after the civil war when he should have been uniting a nation he tried to bitterly divide it.

now to the infamous Richard Nixon
some of the things he did that were found out by the Watergate committee are "campaign fraud, political espionage and sabotage, illegal break-ins, improper tax audits, illegal wiretapping on a massive scale"{Wikipedia}
JBlake

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for the quick response.

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Modern Morality
=====

One major problem with Pro's second round of debate is that he is looking on history with the moral compass of the modern world. When ranking presidents, one must take the context of the time into account. For instance, James Buchanan cannot be deducted points, as Pro does in his second round, for advocating slavery in a time when slavery was the norm. Nor can Andrew Johnson be blamed for being a racist and promoting segregation in a time of deep racial enmity.

Because Pro bases his argument for these two presidents (Buchanan and Johnson) on modern morality, his argument is negated.

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Richard Nixon
=====

Richard Nixon certainly deserves consideration in the top five worst presidents. However, given the few reasons supplied by Pro compared (and the severity of said reasons), Ge. W. Bush ranks worse.
The both engaged in illegal (and questionable) wiretapping of U.S. citizens. However, torture, leading the nation into a war on false pretenses, economic collapse, and suspension of constitutional rights (among others) ranks worse than the coruption that characterized the Nixon Administration. The former affects foreign policy, our standing in the world, and domestic stability; the latter only affects domestic trust of the political system.

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Conclusion
=====

Pro has thus far failed to meet his burden to introduce five (5) presidents that rank worse, on balance, than George W. Bush.
He failed to produce relevant reasons why Buchanan and Johnson were worse. He also failed to provide enough support for his claim that Nixon was worse.
Debate Round No. 2
tmhustler

Pro

to start this round I will show that will bush made some errors in judgment they do not compare to the ineptitude of some of our other leaders.
1 I will concede that he is responsible for an unpopular war but still hold out hope that history may vindicate him this.
2 for his administration allowing torture I am assuming your talking about waterboarding something that to my knowledge was only ever used on 3 people. but besides the point it is not something they perceived to by torture
3 how can you blame bush for the financial collapse when it came as a surprise to most the world.
4 so to hurricane Katrina what exactly should he have done in that situation. I think the blame should fall mainly on the governor, and the mayor
5 first of this act was not for American citizens it was for captured terrorist. secondly do you really want to go down the list of presidents that suspended habeas Corpus
6 those wire tapes were supposed to be for foreign nationals. some people over reached but this not on the level of Nixon who wire taped people he didn't like
7 not negotiating with people who express deep hatred for your country does not mean your foreign policy is disastrous

James Buchanan was not a worse president just because he was a slavery advocate. he tried to pressure a supreme court justices to change his decision, he also bribed congress men to vote a certain way. he also did nothing in one of our nations most trying times.

Andrew Johnson seeing as the Congress was able to override his veto saying that most people hated black people at the time really isn't valid. and the main point I was trying to make was that at a time when our nation was so bitterly divided he did nothing to try to remedy the situation in fact by trying to keep blacks as second class citizens he wound up dividing them even more.

Richard Nixon I would say Bushes war wile dissonant is better than Nixon's secret wars like in Cambodia and his meddling in India, Pakistan, and Iran all had a detrimental effect I thing Nixon is at least one we can both agree is worse rather than going into every detail of his presidency.

my next president is warren g. Harding
whose presidency was part of several scandals including
the teapot dome scandal where "The scandal involved Secretary of the Interior Albert B. Fall, who was convicted of accepting bribes and illegal no-interest personal loans in exchange for the leasing of public oil fields to business associates". next I will highlight some of the other scandals during his presidency "Thomas W. Miller, head of the Office of Alien Property, was convicted of accepting bribes. Jess Smith, personal aide to the Attorney General, destroyed papers and then committed suicide. Charles R. Forbes, Director of the Veterans Bureau, skimmed profits, earned large amounts of kickbacks, and directed underground alcohol and drug distribution. He was convicted of fraud and bribery and drew a two-year sentence" before you say that these actions were done by his cabinet and not himself I would like to point out that Bush was not always aware of the actions of rumsfeld and Cheney.

for the sake of time I will hold my last president for my next round I do apologise for taking so much time but I am trying to have as good an argument as possible
JBlake

Con

Given the time of day (4:45 am EST) and the amount of time between rounds (3 hours), it is highly unlikely that I will be responding in the final round of debate. Since most debates here are three rounds anyway, I ask that the reader does not punish me merely for missing the last round. I further ask that the reader and my opponent consider the debate over when Pro posts his next round. Thank you in advance.

I will now address the presidents selected by Pro as worse than Bush.

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Buchanan
======

I concede that Buchanan can be consider among the five worst presidents.

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Johnson
======

The fact that congress overrode Johnson's veto of the first Civil Rights Bill does not prove that he deserves a place among the five worst presidents. Many presidents have had vetos overridden and do not qualify as bad presidents. Also, to counter Pro's only other argument relating to Johnson: presiding over a nation that is divided along partisan (or even racial) lines does not prove he was a bad president. Pro has not demonstrated a valid reason why Johnson belongs on a list of five worst presidents.

======
Nixon
======

I have already conceded that Nixon can be considered among the worst five presidents.

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Harding
======

I admit that the Harding Administration has proven to be among the most corrupt. However, Pro has not demonstrated how this corruption has led to long-term or even a significant negative balance. Sure, the short two years of this administration was marked by corruption - but it was not marked by torture, illegal wire-tapping, war under false pretenses, violations of constitutional rights, and economic collapse.

---------------------

======
Conclusion
======

My opponent has thus far failed to meet his burden. He has only been able to produce valid and relevant reasons for two presidents who can be listed among the five (5) worst presidents in U.S. history. In order to win this debate he will need to either introduce or defend the inclusion of at least three (3) more, and support the claim that their administration was worse than that of George W. Bush. In order to do that, he will need to show why they were worse than state-sponsored torture, illegal wire-tapping, an unpopular war that began under false pretenses, violations of constitutional rights, and economic collapse.

I would like to close by thanking my opponent for this debate. If he would like to debate the same topic again with longer rounds, I would be more than happy to oblige. Good Night, and Good Luck.
Debate Round No. 3
tmhustler

Pro

I have already refuted several of the claims made against Bush showing that will he was not a good president his misconduct does not rise to the level of Johnson's impeachment, or his blatant racism.

further more the bush presidency never had the amount of abuse power for financial gain than the Harding administration.
so to this point I believe that I have shown there are at least 4 previous presidents that were worse than Bush.
at this point I was going to mention Ulysses s Grant as a 5th but seeing as my opponent has not chance to refute this I will just give the link to the Wikipedia page that describes his scandals I believe once you have read this you will see that I have name 5 presidents that were worse than GWB

http://en.wikipedia.org...
JBlake

Con

JBlake forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
38 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Rezzealaux 7 years ago
Rezzealaux
France and Germany in 1917 were fighting to a stalemate. In the instance of two sides fighting to a stalemate, the inevitable result is that both sides go home - this is not a "probable" or "improbable" result, it would've been an INEVITABLE result. Governments only have so much power over their peoples, and when the people see that absolutely no progress is being made, it doesn't matter what the government says, they will not listen to the government.

And then the USA came in, bringing a hundred thousand fresh troops with the industrial backing of a fresh nation to completely screw the balance of two battle weary nations.

It doesn't matter what the hell Wilson's 14 points said, his actions completely contradict his words. And just as in a conflict between logic and evidence, when there is a conflict between words and actions, the empirics win.

Wilson's leading the USA into WW1 says he want to screw over Germany, his words don't.
Actions win.
Ergo, Wilson screwed over Germany and created the basis for WW2. If you want to argue that the Treaty of Versailles was the basis, well, without Wilson pulling USA into the war the ToV wouldn't have happened either.
Posted by JSquires 7 years ago
JSquires
How did Wilson form the basis for WWII when he was the only leader who didn't want Germany to take the blame?
Posted by JBlake 7 years ago
JBlake
There are several issues with Cole and Ohanian's analysis. I'll save them for a debate, should Kroeger choose to back up his claim.
Posted by Rezzealaux 7 years ago
Rezzealaux
EDIT:

Japan is still in a depression, "was it two?" should be changed "is it two now?".
Posted by Rezzealaux 7 years ago
Rezzealaux
Sorry, I would not be interested in that debate. I'm not trying to be cowardly or bigoted; I'm just not too knowledgable on the subject (of economics). I read a study, the basic logic tools I had supported the conclusion, and the fact that Japan's continual government intervention has made a decade (or was it two?) long depression more or less convinced me that there was something else around that time (FDR's New Deal time) that "solved" the Great Depression. The answer I found was World War 2, and I thought no more about it.

It would not be a very informing debate for you or a very fun debate for me, as I am also currently behind on my summer reading schedule. If Keith does take you up on the debate, I'd be glad to read it though.

"FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate": http://newsroom.ucla.edu...
Posted by JBlake 7 years ago
JBlake
"FDR extended the Great depression way longer then it could have been."

Would either of you (Kroeger or Rezz) care to debate this topic? I would accept from either of you (or both of you) a challenge on the issue.
Posted by Rezzealaux 7 years ago
Rezzealaux
My top three would be FDR, Reagan, and Wilson.
FDR - Keith said it.
Reagan - Reaganomics.
Wilson - Screwed up what would've happened in Europe if the USA didn't enter WW1, which meant Wilson created the basis for WW2, the Cold War, and pretty much the whole mess we're in today.
Posted by KeithKroeger91 7 years ago
KeithKroeger91
FDR extended the Great depression way longer then it could have been.
Posted by KeithKroeger91 7 years ago
KeithKroeger91
Barack is probably one of the biggest liars of the millenia. Why are we still in Iraq when he promised Americans to get out of Iraq as soon as he became President? Also based off his own budget for the country if all his wonderful ideas and plans are passed he will have already outspent Bush. Also the Government take over of GM was a unforgiveable act.
Posted by JBlake 7 years ago
JBlake
I meant your list of worst presidents. Why does FDR rank among the worst? How can you justify placing Obama among the worst when he is barely 1/8 of the way through one term and 1/16 of the way through two?
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by tmhustler 7 years ago
tmhustler
tmhustlerJBlakeTied
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Vote Placed by pokerstar 7 years ago
pokerstar
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Vote Placed by JSquires 7 years ago
JSquires
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Vote Placed by JBlake 7 years ago
JBlake
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