The Instigator
Akhenaten
Pro (for)
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The Contender
phitb
Con (against)
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Germs don't cause disease

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/7/2017 Category: Science
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 503 times Debate No: 104338
Debate Rounds (5)
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Akhenaten

Pro

You always hear on the news that germs are causing disease. Recently, Hepatitis A was blamed for causing several deaths in San Diego. They recommended that people should wash their hands more to stop the disease. It is true that eating other people's poo poo is not a good thing to do for your health. But this is not the real cause of most disease in general. If you avoid sugar, grain and dairy products your body can withstand a little poo poo contamination. Leaky gut syndrome is the main cause of most disease. Thus, if you avoid products that cause your gut to leak, then you won't have to worry about food contamination so much. The point being, that eating sugar, grain and dairy will make you sick, regardless of any fecal infection. Thus, fecal infection is only an indication of poor living standards and bad diet and is not the main problem.
phitb

Con

You are going on about how fecal infection is not effecting illness but clearly it does. During the medieval times all the way to the 19th century there is clear evidence of human waste effected the poor and rich. During the medieval and renassiance times, open sewers were normal and not thought off until diseases took lives. The government band open sewers and pouring waste into the street this act alone saved thousands of lives in an instant. Therefore showing that human waste is directly linked to disease. Although this was a long time ago there is another link and this was Florence Nightingale, Nightingale had Cleaned up hospitals amazingly and one of the big factors that she had cleaned was the exposed waste of the human body. Infection have a direct link to poo since poo contains germs which enter the body via open wounds or your mouth when eating.
Debate Round No. 1
Akhenaten

Pro

The concept that bacteria in poo can kill you is ridiculous. Mainly because everybody has plenty of poo already in their bodies and its not doing them any harm. Therefore, how can eating poo cause any harm? The reality is that poo normally doesn't cause any harm. But poo is made of more than just bacteria. Poo is made mostly of rotten proteins. These proteins can become toxic and give off ammonia gas which is a deadly gas and can kill you fast. Normally, proteins are excreted before they become too toxic. Thus, if you eat a poo that has been sitting in the toilet for a few days then this poo will contain plenty of ammonia causing protein. Thus, its the toxic chemicals that will kill you and not the bacteria. Bacteria are just harmless scavengers which aid digestion. If you don't have any bacteria in your gut you will starve to death because you need bacteria to breakdown the food that you digest.

Professor Pettenkofer swallows a glass of Cholerae bacteria and survives without getting sick.

During his career Koch identified and isolated a large number of bacterial strains and was a supporter of the theory that these germs were the main causes of disease. This placed him at odds with Pettenkofer's broader approach to disease that involved many other environmental factors in addition to the activity of the germ of a disease.[6] The two scientists conflicted most notably over the subject of cholera. In one specific case, Pettenkofer obtained bouillon laced with a large dose of Vibrio cholerae bacteria from Robert Koch, the proponent of the theory that the bacteria was the sole cause of the disease. He consumed the bouillon in a self-test in the presence of several witnesses on 7 October 1892. He also took bicarbonate of soda to neutralise his stomach acid to counter a suggestion by Koch that the acid could kill the bacteria. Pettenkofer suffered mild symptoms for nearly a week but claimed these were not associated with cholera.

http://www.healingourchildren.net...

https://www.naturalnews.com...
phitb

Con

first of all you have provided me with an unreliable source from an unknown website. I would just like to mention that I am 16 years old and aspiring to become a Doctor and I have so many different ways to exsplain why you are wrong.

First your point about the poo already being in your body. yes it is already in your body but it is in your large intestines not your stomach and the way it gets to your stomach is by it going through your mouth. To avoid this you need to wash your hands after doing a poo. Once it is in your stomach it will be able to enter your body much more easily and get into your blood stream.

So that was about the bacteria entering your body now I am going to explain how it will make you ill and give you a disease. So when the Bacteria/ germs enter your blood stream your white blood cells will try to fight it of. If this works then you are fine but if It doesn't the bacteria double in size after a set amount of Time. With so many colonies of bacteria the bacteria starts to use up your sources such as glucose, oxygen and necessary things for life. This makes you ill because you will have no energy, your temperature will go up because you want your antibodies to work faster and in more serious cases you will struggle to breath.This is a clear explanation on how Germs cause illnesses and diseases.

You mentioned that Professor Pettenkofer swallowed a glass of cholera. Well first, explain to me how John Snow prevented Cholera in 1854 from restricting access to the board street pumps water. It wasn't just a miracle. I will now explain to you the science behind being infected by cholera. When cholera gets into your Body's it enters the gut. Our immune system usually cannot defend agains these micro organisms, it then completely takes over. It turns the body into the ideal conditions for that particular organism. The body will change its living conditions so the bacteria is at its optimum and will restrict bodily functions from happening, such as the small intestines absorbing water which causes diarrhoea. cholera will have completely taken over the body and you would eventually die.

My last point is about a fairly new discovery and it is about some pathogens being nearly identical to your bodies cells. So when these mimics enter your body ,your body won't see them as foreign and ignore them overtime. But once they do they will start attacking them. The problem is that since they are near copies to your own cells your antibodies will start attacking your own cells. And as you can see it is quite a problem.

This information was given to me from a Medical consultant which specialises in gastroenterology.
Debate Round No. 2
Akhenaten

Pro

1. Oh, I see you are planning on becoming a doctor. First you must realize that you are entering a gangster organization called the medical fraternity. They will do whatever it takes to preserve their high status and incomes. They make a living by conning people into believing that they can cure ailments. They use dangerous chemicals to kill germs in the body which they falsely believe is the cause of disease. This is essentially a criminal act.

2. Professor Pettenkofer was a highly respected chemist and biologist. (Full article below) -

https://jamanetwork.com...

3. In the old days pump water used to get mixed with sewerage water, dead rats, dead fish and other items would contaminate the water because they didn't have any filtering devices. This is the true cause of disease. Cholera by itself was proven to be harmless by Professor von Pettenkofer. (See article above.)

4. Bacteria are harmless if they stay in the gut where they belong. Now, if somebody eats foods which cause irritation to the bowel such as dairy, grain and sugar. Then, this will open the walls of the bowel and allow the bacteria to enter the blood stream. If somebody doesn't eat enough fibre, then the food will stay in the gut too long and become toxic. Thus, the bacteria are only a result of a disease and are not the cause of the disease. This was proven by Antoine Bechamp who was Luis Pasteur's competitor in his famous (infamous) germ theory.

https://www.youtube.com...

https://www.naturalnews.com...
phitb

Con

First have you heard of the NHS? You would think that doctors always want to earn so much money. well how many doctors do you know personally, I can guarantee I know way more than you. Most of them don't care so much about money other wise they would work overtime earning 300 pounds an hour.

On the other hand why should we trust a professor over 100 years ago when modern-day scientist and doctors have far more advanced tools.

Your statement about the cholera not being in the broad street pump. look at these links:

https://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.atlasobscura.com...
http://www.ph.ucla.edu...

John snow also won a Nobel prize for his work unlike Pattenkofer

My last point is that is you don't eat dairy, grains and sugar you become week and malnourished. And I also explained completely about how bacteria multiply and take over the body. read my round 2 explanation.
Debate Round No. 3
Akhenaten

Pro

1. Well, of course, doctors have to keep up their image as 'little hero soldiers of medicine' working long hard hours to save mankind. But this is just a myth. The truth is that the medical system recruits less doctors than are required so that doctors are always in short supply and can thus charge outrageous rates for their services. More corruption and deception in other words.

2. Why should we trust Professor Pettenkofer? I have clearly demonstrated that he was right about cholera being a harmless bacteria. He an other people have swallowed cholera bacteria and had no severe effects as should be expected. Thus, the concept that germs cause disease and death are false. Note - It only takes one successful experiment to disprove a theory. Note - Modern equipment and facilities are useless in trying to prove a faulty concept to be correct. If a theory is wrong, then all the modern equipment in the world can't prove it right.

3. The Broad Street Pump.
The data from John Snow's research is faulty. It assumes that germs are the cause of disease, which is a false assumption. This is where the concept of a disease slowly spreading from a central point was first conceived. The dot matrix diagrams which he drew show that the disease is spreading from a central point. This central point was the Broad Street pump. Thus, it was assumed that the disease came from this pump.

Where did he go wrong then?
The sewerage systems of this city was appalling at the time. Sewerage water was leaking into the water table system and was contaminating the well water. Note - I have already stated previously that fresh poo is harmless and that it is only rotten food and poo that can harm your health. It is not the bacteria in the food or poo that is the danger. It is the rotten protein that is poisonous.

John Snow won a Nobel Prize.
So what, plenty of other criminals have won a Nobel Prizes too. The Nobel Prize was originated by Mr Nobel who invented dynamite. Dynamite killed millions of people, so Mr Nobel felt guilty about that, so he created a prize for other criminals like himself, so that they wouldn't feel guilty too.

Dairy, grain and sugar make you strong?
Sorry, but these products don't contain and useful vitamins that the human body can use. These products will cause vitamin depletion because the digestive system needs to add vitamins to these products in order to digest them. You can eat a small amount of these products without getting sick. The human body is very forgiving and will allow a certain amount of rubbish to enter the body. Once the limit has been exceeded - (about 10 - 20 % intake) the human body will start to malfunction and you will get sick. This may be called a flu virus attack by the medical system. They will most likely recommend that you get your flu shots to prevent the nasty 'flu viruses' from getting at you. lol

Note - There is no such thing as a virus - see my other previous debates on this issue.

https://www.youtube.com...

https://www.youtube.com...
phitb

Con

1) Doctors do have the image as 'little hero soldiers' because they save lives. Its as simple as that. Also the reason why there anr't enough Doctors is because not a lot of people do medicine or are even smart enough to become a Doctor. Being a Doctor comes with a lot of things many people can't do, such as handling large amounts of pressure, working late nights on call and thinking in different ways.

2)I Have clearly demonstrated that cholera can pass through the gut and take over your body. If not how do you explain how people get cholera, it isn't just an unknown cause. People have done hard research and in some cases prevent it. If it wasn't a bug or germs wouldn't there be many more cases and with it being unstopable.

3) Hypathetically say that the board street pump was not how cholera was spread how do you explain the Eleven cholera cases recorded in Lusaka. This only happened on the 9th of october and at the bottom it says "A combined team of officers from DMMU and Ministry of Health have been dispatched in affected compounds to ensure that people access clean water for domestic use," https://www.lusakatimes.com... See that it says' CLEAN water' where the bug is spread much like the pump on board street. Yemen has hundreds of thousands of cholera cases https://www.reuters.com... and in quotations it mentions "The disease, spread by ingestion of food or water tainted with human faeces, can kill within hours if untreated. It has been largely eradicated in developed countries equipped with sanitation systems and water treatment." It mentions again water like in broad street.

4) How was John snow a criminal? He saved so many lives. So you are saying Obama , Malala Yousafzai and Thomas Schelling were criminals as-well.

5) Where do you get you energy from? Glucose which is a simple sugar. Also all carbohydrates break down into simple sugars. so you are saying we should avoid bread, potato, pasta literally what a third of our diet consist of.Another thing to mention is that The equation for respiration is GLUCOSE +OXYGEN-----> CARBON DIOXIDE+ WATER+ENERGY you literally need to eat sugars to survive. Dairy is a source of protein which our bones need but I understand that we can get the recourses from things such a fish.

6) Virus clearly exist https://en.wikipedia.org... they are infectious agents which replicate and infect the body. Fresh poo can harm you. Poo is the bodies way of getting the things you don't want and need in your system out of you. So why would you want it back into your body in a more prone to disease area.
Debate Round No. 4
Akhenaten

Pro

1. To become a doctor you have to study very long hours to achieve the required marks. In fact, too many hours to become a normal human being. Doctors have to dehumanize themselves to achieve success in becoming a doctor. The result, is a person who has no knowledge of the real world they live in but plenty of knowledge of medical things. This is not a balanced human being. Many doctors are just plain crazy as a result. Many doctors commit suicide because they can't cope with the real world.
https://www.nytimes.com...

This is all planed by the medical system. The medical system needs life ignorant people who have no spare time to investigate the history of the medical system to see if it is a valid system. Humans don't really need any medical intervention if they adhere to a proper diet which avoids sugar, grain, dairy, alcohol and caffeine. You need fibre and clean drinking water also.

2. Professor Pettenkofer's experiment on himself should have put an end to the germ theory of disease. But, no. It had no effect on the medical authorities because they could see that germ theory had plenty of money to be made from gullible people who did believe it. In those days nobody knew anything about leaky gut syndrome and vitamin deficiency. Thus, the dollar won the day and germ theory has remained and made many people rich. Doctors, pharmacists, surgeons, nurses, chemists and vets doctors all make a killing thanks to germ theory. Note - Without germ theory all these people would be without any high income and high status. Thus, germ theory is one of the biggest frauds ever perpetrated onto the human race which in turn makes all doctors criminals.

3. Cholera is just a consequence of drinking dirty water which has fecal material in it. A dog licks its own arse on a regular basis and never gets sick. Animals in pristine nature, which aren't fed human foods like grain, never get sick. It is only silly humans that get sick because we eat inappropriate foods and drink dirty water. Take away the dirty water and the inappropriate foods and humans would never get sick either. Thus, there would be no need for any high income doctors.

4. John Snow was an criminal because he caused the unnecessary death of millions of people due to his ignorance of the disease process. He formulated a false solution to a sewerage problem and blamed the bacteria when he should have blamed the rotten protein. According to germ theory, each dot on John Snow's map should have been the starting point of a new outbreak of disease. This didn't occur. This proves that germs don't spread from human to human and are not contagious. The fact that the well was the only cause of the disease means that the rotten protein was the cause and not the bacteria. If the bacteria was the cause, then each new case would have been the starting point of a new outbreak of the disease. Thus, by using logic alone, I can defeat the germ theory of disease which is illogical.

5. Disease is caused by inappropriate foods and dangerous chemicals. Not by germs. The video on leaky gut syndrome explains the process by which the grain foods destroy or damage the gut lining which prevents nutrient absorption. Eating food which has no fibre will delay the food progress through the gut. This cause the food to become putrefied and will cause disease as well.

6. When a person is given antibiotics all their bacteria will be destroyed. Sometimes people starve to death because of the doctors ignorance of how the human body works. Humans need the bacteria so that their bodies can breakdown fibre and protein. Sometimes they need to do a poo transplant to restore the interior balance after the antibiotic imbalance has been created.

http://thefecaltransplantfoundation.org...

Note - Doctors still don't see the errors of their ways. They should have advised the patient to eat proper foods. Dietary advice is the only way to prevent disease. All other medical advice is just a money making scam.
phitb

Con

1) All degrees have long studying hours. so many jobs such as executives, truck drivers and power plant workers have longer working hours than Doctors. Doctors have social lives too and are social, they have to be since you have to be able to talk to people about there conditions such as GP's. you need sugars to Survive so you cannot avoid them.

2) If germs arn't real why do we have a immune system? It makes no sense, If germs don't cause disease then how does the immune system work. Unless you are saying that scientists made that up too.

3)Animals have different stomachs and bodily functions. Dogs drink pond water and don't get sick but when we do we will get ill.

4) John snow still managed to prevent so many deaths regardless whether his theory was correct or not, so thank to him for contributing to science and saving lives.

5)There are good bacterias and there are bad bacteria. There are so many different types and they will all have different effects.

IMPORTANT PARAGRAPH. MUST READ-VITAL

You have forgot about the most important thing in the body.The immune system. Our immune system cannot defend from chemicals, so why do we have it? we have it to kill pathogens which are germs. Bad illnesses such as Aids weekend our immune system greatly, so germs and pathogens get in. This is why we get ill when we have these diseases.

Blood had white antibodies which clearly defend agains germs. If germs are not harmless why would your white blood cells defend against it. You also have platelets which are basically scabs. they stop germs from coming in. You are also suggesting they 90 percent of medication is completely faulty and doesn't work.

If your statements are correct about germs not being harmful and cholera not actually affecting you. You have the answers to all of life's problems. so your saying if we clean up the environment and not eat bad foods we will live until we are old or have cancer. If it were that simple the world would be saved.But the world isn't saved so your statements are false.
Debate Round No. 5
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