The Instigator
JasonMc
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points
The Contender
llamallama
Pro (for)
Losing
16 Points

Global warming is nothing more than a natural warming cycle, and not is due to CO2 emissions.

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Started: 1/29/2008 Category: Science
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,810 times Debate No: 2286
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (54)
Votes (10)

 

JasonMc

Con

It would seem that the consensus among academic institutions worldwide would be enough to persuade most people that global warming is real, that it is a problem, and that it is a direct result of human-produced carbon emissions into the Earth's atmosphere, but many are still not convinced. The skeptical argument seems to be that the Earth is so vast that mankind could never be any real threat to it, and / or all of the evidence presented by the world's most prominent scientific minds only points to naturally occurring events and warming cycles.

The problem with the skeptical side of this argument is that the skeptics lack the knowledge necessary to view the argument objectively, from all sides. Skeptics fail to understand the concept of chronic vs acute when considering whether the source of harmful carbon emission levels are man-made, or naturally produced.

Scientists have taken into consideration the significant amount of carbon emitted into the atmosphere naturally by contributing factors such as volcanoes and organic decomposition. The difference is that manmade sources perpetuate a consistent or chronic flow of carbon emissions across the planet, which maintains the enhancement of the greenhouse effect, and as a result causes the exponential rate of unnatural warming our planet is experiencing. Significant natural sources of carbon emissions do occur, but they are acute and subside after a period of time, and therefore do not intensifying the greenhouse effect for a period long enough to perpetuate an accelerated warming trend.

Scientists have been able to map natural warming trends over the course of several hundred thousand years through analyzing ice core samples taken from Antarctic glaciers, as well as through other methods. When comparing the rate of fluctuation between natural carbon and temperature cycles and the cycles being witnessed today, it is clear that excessive manmade carbon emissions are causing an accelerated warming trend at such a rate that our global ecosystem cannot adapt to in a non-catastrophic fashion.

I would ask that my opponent keep their argument rational, and leave their emotions at the door.
llamallama

Pro

Let me first say that I believe in global warming and I am doing this to see if I can win even against it.

You say that the Earth's temperature has been rising because of CO2 produced by man, but this a normal cycle and there have been tons of other times when we have freaked out about it.

(http://icecap.us...) Go to this link and look at the bottom graph on page six, which is the average temperature from 1895-2007. Not only do I not see the temperature rising too far above normal, I see it falling sharply around today. This is in complete contradiction to your claim that the earth is warming and that it is different then it has been.

Now go to page 7 of the link. There you see that CO2 and temperature have no link.

The sun can have a big influence on the earth's temperature and it has been more active lately as proved by page 3 of my link.

There have been many times in which the world has worried over a global cooling. In 1895 the New York Times was reporting an apocalyptic story, not on global warming, but on global cooling saying "Geologists Think the World May Be Frozen Up Again".
Later, in the 1920's the earth warmed by half a degree and the New York Times started talking of an apocalyptic warming.
Then, in 1975, the New York Times reported that "A Major Cooling Widely Considered to Be Inevitable." The cover of Science News showed a worrying picture of the earth being enveloped by ice and many people panicked.
Now, its reporting warming again and this time its different? I don't think so.

It is not just the Times that has spread global warming, in 1975 Newsweek worried that the earth was cooling dramatically.

Everyone is taking minor temperature changes as apocalyptic predictions.

(http://www.geocraft.com...) Here it says water vapor is responsible most for the greenhouse effect and most other sources are natural.

In the medevil warm period, people were able to grow grapes in England and they can't grow grapes there today.

Not to mention we are just recovering from the Little Ice Age, which may explain why we feel a bit warm.

The arctic ocean, which if the ice is melting, should be falling, is rising according to Europe's Space Agency's ERS-2 satellite

Even the hockey stick graph, which is used to prove global warming is scientifically invalid.

All in all, it water vapor that has the most effect on global warming and even if it didn't there are still many reasons for why it is false and not caused by man.
Debate Round No. 1
JasonMc

Con

Thanks for continuing. You seem to have a firm grasp of the skeptical side of the argument. Since there are several claims to refute, I'm going to reply to each refutable claim one by one. Any of my claims can be referenced to "An Inconvenient Truth" or www.climatecrisis.net. If you feel this is not a credible source, there are plenty of scientific journals on google scholar you can look up that support the same theories.

llamallama : "look at the bottom graph on page six, which is the average temperature from 1895-2007. Not only do I not see the temperature rising too far above normal, I see it falling sharply around today. This is in complete contradiction to your claim that the earth is warming and that it is different then it has been."

- Though the average global temperature may not have risen too far above normal, the concern is how average temperatures differ at different locations on the planet. While the temperature may have stayed the same, or even dropped in certain locations, the average temperatures in the coldest regions of the world have risen at an alarming rate. The proof of this can be seen, not only in recorded temperatures by climatologists, but in the way that glaciers and ice caps have decreased significantly in size. In fact, the largest ice sheet in the Arctic Circle has broken in half.

llamallama : "Now go to page 7 of the link. There you see that CO2 and temperature have no link."

- The oil industry spends billions of dollars annually on lobbying and advertising campaigns aimed at making global warming appear as a non-issue. It isn't hard for scientists who are funded by the oil industry to make a compelling case to the layman with evidence that contradicts the findings of the global academic community. There is ample evidence that shows the two are indeed directly related.

llamallama : "The sun can have a big influence on the earth's temperature and it has been more active lately as proved by page 3 of my link."

- The Earth's temperatures are directly related to energy provided by the sun. This is commonly known. Though solar activity fluctuates from time to time, this increase in activity as stated has been more active lately. The warming period in question takes place on a much larger time frame than the increases in solar activity are occurring.

llamallama : "There have been many times in which the world has worried over a global cooling. In 1895 the New York Times was reporting an apocalyptic story, not on global warming, but on global cooling saying "Geologists Think the World May Be Frozen Up Again".
Later, in the 1920's the earth warmed by half a degree and the New York Times started talking of an apocalyptic warming.
Then, in 1975, the New York Times reported that "A Major Cooling Widely Considered to Be Inevitable." The cover of Science News showed a worrying picture of the earth being enveloped by ice and many people panicked.
Now, its reporting warming again and this time its different? I don't think so.

It is not just the Times that has spread global warming, in 1975 Newsweek worried that the earth was cooling dramatically."

- There's a major difference between what a hand full of people thought in the period between the late 1800s and 1975 and what the global academic community is claiming. In addition to a global consensus, the science of today is far more advanced than in earlier periods.

llamallama : "Everyone is taking minor temperature changes as apocalyptic predictions.

(http://www.geocraft.com......) Here it says water vapor is responsible most for the greenhouse effect and most other sources are natural.

In the medevil warm period, people were able to grow grapes in England and they can't grow grapes there today.

Not to mention we are just recovering from the Little Ice Age, which may explain why we feel a bit warm."

- Water vapor is a key component to the greenhouse effect, which is a key component of our global climate, and is therefore a good thing. When the greenhouse effect is intensified to the point that it traps more infrared radiation than it's supposed to is when it becomes a problem. The intensification of the greenhouse effect is caused by a consistent worldwide flow of CO2 emission into the atmosphere. It is true that the vast majority of CO2 emitted into the atmosphere is from natural sources, but A) this is where the difference between chronic vs acute mentioned in my round 1 argument comes into play, and B) much of the emitted CO2 and other pollutants form natural sources is in the form of particulate matter, which actually causes global dimming of the sun, and serves to cool the planet. There's a great PBS documentary about global dimming called "The Dimming of the Sun" that can most likely be accessed online which I would recommend to anyone that would like to improve their understanding of the climate crisis.

llamallama : "The arctic ocean, which if the ice is melting, should be falling, is rising according to Europe's Space Agency's ERS-2 satellite"

- This statement is false. If the ice is melting, then it would cause the sea level in the Arctic Ocean to rise, much like cubes of ice dropped into a glass of water will cause the water level to rise in the glass.

llamallama : "Even the hockey stick graph, which is used to prove global warming is scientifically invalid."

- Which hockey stick graph would you be referring to?
llamallama

Pro

Great response! I'm glad that there is such a strong arguer for global warming on this site.

You said: "much of the emitted CO2 and other pollutants form natural sources is in the form of particulate matter, which actually causes global dimming of the sun, and serves to cool the planet."
If you say CO2 cools the planet then how can we be warming the Earth?
How does that CO2 differ from our CO2?

With water vapor causing most of the greenhouse effect and the little bit of CO2 that influences it being mostly natural, how can the comparatively miniscule amounts of CO2 we emit make any difference?

As for the arctic sea level, for some reason I wrote falling in the place of rising and vice-versa. Sorry, I checked it over, but I guess I didn't notice it. This is what I meant to type down: According to Europe's Space Agency's ERS-2 satellite the Arctic Ocean's sea level is falling, which if the ice were melting should be rising.

The Hockey Stick Graph is the graph that show the average world temperature spiking up at the end (today) so that it looks like a hockey stick and that graph is scientifically invalid.

The sun has at least some control over the temperature and Mars's icecaps have also decreased over the past 3 years.

The hype over global warming may be more prevalent now because media is more wide-spread and can hammer in the idea of global warming more.
Debate Round No. 2
JasonMc

Con

"You said: 'much of the emitted CO2 and other pollutants form natural sources is in the form of particulate matter, which actually causes global dimming of the sun, and serves to cool the planet.'
If you say CO2 cools the planet then how can we be warming the Earth?
How does that CO2 differ from our CO2?"

- The difference in CO2 that you're asking about is a matter of a solid vs a gas. CO2, or gaseous carbon, traps infrared solar radiation that would otherwise be reflected back into space when it is perpetually emitted into the atmosphere at the current rate. Solid particulate matter that is emitted into the atmosphere actually reflects solar radiation.

"With water vapor causing most of the greenhouse effect and the little bit of CO2 that influences it being mostly natural, how can the comparatively miniscule amounts of CO2 we emit make any difference?"

- As out of control carbon emissions trap infrared solar radiation and warm the earth, there's a significant increase in the amount of evaporated water in the atmosphere, which intensifies the greenhouse effect.

"According to Europe's Space Agency's ERS-2 satellite the Arctic Ocean's sea level is falling, which if the ice were melting should be rising."

- I'm not sure about that one. I cannot attest to the validity of ERS-2 observations.

"The sun has at least some control over the temperature and Mars's icecaps have also decreased over the past 3 years."

- The climate crisis is due to occurrences that have taken place over a period of longer than three years. Even if Mars has retreating icecaps, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is due to solar activity.

"The hype over global warming may be more prevalent now because media is more wide-spread and can hammer in the idea of global warming more."

There is a degree of truth to this, but that's not to say that it's a good thing. People need to be aware of our impact on the environment. I do not believe, however, that the media should try to terrorize anyone about global warming. When people get scared it inhibits their ability to rationally deal with the problem at hand. There are a lot of ideas floating around that there needs to be international enforcement of environmental regulations. To me, an international government is a very scary thing.
llamallama

Pro

The arctic ocean defiantly is falling and that does not fit with global warming, especially if you say its warmer up there.
(http://news.bbc.co.uk...)
(http://www.physorg.com...)
(http://seattle.craigslist.org...)
The facts do not come together and there is a lot of hype, but little concrete evidence that global warming is something to be worried about.
Debate Round No. 3
54 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 21 through 30 records.
Posted by mikelwallace 5 years ago
mikelwallace
well i think here we can agree to disagree. I believe that we need to adhere to the basic principles of the constitution and not stray from it. This is a major difference between conservatives and liberals, liberals want to move away from the constitution (i.e. the nickname progressives) whereas conservatives want to adhere to it. I suppose we will always disagree here, I respect your opinion and appreciate your respect of mine, however.
Posted by hattopic 5 years ago
hattopic
You're right, I misread it.

And it seems you completely miss the point of what I'm saying.

I don't consider the constitution to be infallible. The constitution does need to be amended at times, due to social changes. So when I say I support a proportional tax, the constitutionality of it has absolutely no bearing on my opinion.

I'm not shredding the constitution to fit my view points, I'm pointing out that my views can still be correct whether or not they're compatible with the constitution. The constitution is great, but it's over 200 years old, it needs to be updated now and then, and, it's my personal opinion that too many Americans treat the constitution like it's some sort of holy document. The founding fathers had some nice ideas, but maybe this nation should be focusing on what's in it's best interests, instead of what men long dead would have done in our situation.
Posted by mikelwallace 5 years ago
mikelwallace
Article I, section 2, clause 3 and Article I, section 9, clause 4 of the Constitution state that all direct taxes are required to be apportioned among the states according to population. This essentially means that the dollar amount of direct taxes imposed on the taxpayers in any given state is required to bear a relationship to the total dollar amount of direct taxes imposed in the entire nation that is equal to the ratio of that state's population to the total population of the nation.

-just in case you need clarification on the amendment
Posted by mikelwallace 5 years ago
mikelwallace
You have missed the point my friend. The 16th clearly states 2 things.

1. Congress has the right to levy a national income tax (you are right on that point).

2. The taxation shall be PROPORTIONAL among states and individuals! This means congress does NOT have the right to tax one state or region more than another based on any difference at all.

The constitution is there to keep order and to protect us from the federal governmant saying "well we can ignore that one for the good of the nation". I must ask, are you for Bush's Patriot Act? Most liberals are not. Are you? As soon as we begin picking and choosing which parts of the constitution we can apply or ignore we might as well just throw it away. I am tired of people shredding the constitution to fit their viewpoints.
Posted by hattopic 5 years ago
hattopic
If we refer to the 16h amendment specifically, no where does it state that congress DIDN'T have the power to tax anyone on any basis. Yes it is discriminatory. In a way that benefits society. Isn't it discrimination to allow kids with better grades into college? You're discriminating kids with bad grades from kids with good grades. Rewarding someone for being better than others, OR punishing someone for being worse than others. Discrimination is an integral part of social interaction, I don't see what the problem with it is.

"So by your "constitution is not infallible" comment can I presume that you are ok with the federal government voilating the constitution as long as you agree with the reason why?"

No. I simply assert that 'I don't believe the constitution to be infallible' as a basis for my opinion. If I thought the constitution was the final word and law on how this country should be governed, then (According to your interpretation of the constitution) how could I be in favor of a progressive tax?
Posted by mikelwallace 5 years ago
mikelwallace
So you claim to know your constitution but then say that you agree with some being taxed more because they make more? This is a form of discrimination you realize. So by your "constitution is not infallible" comment can I presume that you are ok with the federal government voilating the constitution as long as you agree with the reason why?
Posted by hattopic 5 years ago
hattopic
Mike, I know my constitution, and I don't consider the constitution to be infallible. Do I agree with a progressive tax rate? To some extent, yes. I don't think the poor should have their incomes taxed to the same level as the rich. People making minimum wage can't spare the same percentage of their income as a millionaire could. I think that once you reach an income level where you can live comfortably then you're obligated to give a little more to society.

And I can't help but disagree with you on the idea that liberals are more ignorant in debate or discussion than conservatives are. I think it's about equal on both sides. How about we agree to disagree and drop it?

If we're both on the same page about communism (very basically, the idea of more or less absolute equality within a society) then I don't consider myself a communist. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to have a truly equal society, I'm just saying it's never going to happen.
Posted by mikelwallace 5 years ago
mikelwallace
watchman acted like a loon, I wont deny that. You can find good and bad people on either end of the spectrum, but generally speaking liberals tend to inject more emotion into their debate, and tend to simply pretend those who disagree are just stupid, or fascist. All you need to do to prove this is...pay attention. As far as the communist comment...do you believe in the redistribution of wealth or the progressive tax rate? If you do then I suggest you read the 16th amendment and then read up on Marxism. I will give you this, you are a lot more intellegent and respectful than watchman, and I appreciate that. But an in depth look at the constitution will make you rethink some of those "liberal" (unconstitutional/socialist) views.
Posted by nebosleeper 5 years ago
nebosleeper
man, I just read everyones comments, and this watchman guys seems to be a real drag. It is very unforunate that people throw out randomness with no backing of anything whatsoever, and then expect people to take them seriuosly. At this time I would try to encourage watchman to stop being an ignorant fool, and use some basic ideas of logic to support his position. I would like to see debate.org get back to the founding idea of presenting facts in a professional manner, and walk away in a mature manner. But, as long as there is people like watchman around I dont see that happening anytime soon. So lets try to be logical, and use facts when we present our ideas, we dont have to rip into each other just because we dont agree. Have a nice day!
Posted by hattopic 5 years ago
hattopic
Hmm... none of that actually makes sense. But here's what I was able to glean from our conversation thus far:

You: I can tell hattopic is a liberal because he dislikes it when people disagree with him.

Me: That's not a sound basis to judge political spectrum on. Both liberals and conservatives dislike dissenting opinions. (I then go on to cite Watchman as an example)

You: Watchman isn't a fair representative of conservatives (probably BECAUSE he dislikes when people disagree with him). And then you go on to compare liberals to communists.

So your logic is: Liberals dislike dissent, and anyone who doesn't like dissent is a liberal. A little circular don't you think?

Your statements aren't backed up by any sort of fact, all you do is state your opinion; you don't say why you're right, or why anyone should prefer your opinion over mine.

(Oh, and I'm not a communist)
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