The Instigator
Samuelstinger91
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
TrasguTravieso
Con (against)
Winning
35 Points

God Does not Exist

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
TrasguTravieso
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/18/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 811 times Debate No: 27341
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (5)

 

Samuelstinger91

Pro

Well, This is part of the Noob tourney with ObiWan. I am arguing that the god that catholics beleive in does not exist.

Conditions:

1. Respect is key. Just becuase we have different views does not mean we should disrespect eachother.

2. If there is trolling on either side, do not dock off points for it, just ignore it and don't count it as part of the argument.


That is all.
TrasguTravieso

Con

The rule asking for respect pretty much excludes trolling, I hope we can avoid it altogether.

I find it interesting that the negation has been formulated in the affirmative, giving Pro the burden of proof, this is rare in debates on the existence of God, where it usually falls upon the theist to propose the usual arguments for the existence of God (Thomas Aquinas' five ways plus newer formulations of the older arguments). I will be interested to see what my partner in this debate has in store for us. I also note that he particularly wishes to disprove the existence of the God as Catholic know Him. Pro has succeeded in arousing my curiosity.

With no further ado I yield the floor.
Debate Round No. 1
Samuelstinger91

Pro

Samuelstinger91 forfeited this round.
TrasguTravieso

Con

Due to both the negative phrasing of the resolution and Pro's forfeit, it has been definitively established that BOP is on my opponent. This notwithstanding, I will give a brief overview of why Catholics believe their faith's tradition of Who God is is true, just to give people something to read should they find this debate..


1. Reason alone can take us to the existence of God.
  • Different "proofs" (in quotation marks because the word is used in a different sense than the scientific sense that is common today) of the existence of God have been in circulation for a while now. The most popular today (perhaps due to the influence of William Lane Craig [1]) is perhaps the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which is as follows:
    • Everything that begins to exist had a cause
    • The universe began to exist
    • Therefore the universe has a cause
    • The proponent of the Kalam Cosmological argument would then explain that this cause would have to be immaterial, timeless and unimaginably powerful. This is because there is no matter or space before the existence of the universe and if it had these characteristics it would not explain its own existence. The powerful thing because to be the cause of the universe you would have to have the power to create everything out of nothing. That's pretty darn powerful.
  • You could take instead any of the five ways of Aquinas or the many, many other arguments for God's existence
2. The testimony of the apostles and their successors in Scripture is accurate
  • Taken strictly as historical documents, the gospels, epistles and acts of the apostles are among the most heavily investigated and the most accurate of ancient historical documents. There is little cause to believe the sacred writers were lying, as they had no personal gain from what they said. Nor is it probable that they deluded themselves into believing what they testified to, as they had every reason to believe the contrary (Jewish tradition had nothing to lead them to believe in a suffering messiah, the resurrection, the trinity etc).
  • The life and teachings of Jesus Christ, as described in these documents leads us to what is referred to as CS Lewis's Trilema.
    • "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." (From Mere Christianity [2])
3. The successors of the apostles had the teaching authority conferred by Christ. Particularly in the case of the successors of Peter in what we now call the papacy. "He who hears you, hears me; he who rejects your rejects me, he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me" (Luke 10. 16). Therefore the Magisterium of the Church is the surest way to come to know the true God. (3)


Sources
(1) http://www.philosophyofreligion.info...
(2) http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_trilem
(3) http://www.ewtn.com...







This being said I once again await the arguments from Pro to support the resolution.
Debate Round No. 2
Samuelstinger91

Pro

Samuelstinger91 forfeited this round.
TrasguTravieso

Con

Another forfeit. Here's a poem I rather like in case someone should like to read something:

Lepanto

White founts falling in the Courts of the sun,
And the Soldan of Byzantium is smiling as they run;
There is laughter like the fountains in that face of all men feared,
It stirs the forest darkness, the darkness of his beard;
It curls the blood-red crescent, the crescent of his lips;
For the inmost sea of all the earth is shaken with his ships.
They have dared the white republics up the capes of Italy,
They have dashed the Adriatic round the Lion of the Sea,
And the Pope has cast his arms abroad for agony and loss,
And called the kings of Christendom for swords about the Cross.
The cold queen of England is looking in the glass;
The shadow of the Valois is yawning at the Mass;
From evening isles fantastical rings faint the Spanish gun,
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

Dim drums throbbing, in the hills half heard,
Where only on a nameless throne a crownless prince has stirred,
Where, risen from a doubtful seat and half attainted stall,
The last knight of Europe takes weapons from the wall,
The last and lingering troubadour to whom the bird has sung,
That once went singing southward when all the world was young.
In that enormous silence, tiny and unafraid,
Comes up along a winding road the noise of the Crusade.
Strong gongs groaning as the guns boom far,
Don John of Austria is going to the war,
Stiff flags straining in the night-blasts cold
In the gloom black-purple, in the glint old-gold,
Torchlight crimson on the copper kettle-drums,
Then the tuckets, then the trumpets, then the cannon, and he comes.
Don John laughing in the brave beard curled,
Spurning of his stirrups like the thrones of all the world,
Holding his head up for a flag of all the free.
Love-light of Spain--hurrah!
Death-light of Africa!
Don John of Austria
Is riding to the sea.

Mahound is in his paradise above the evening star,
(Don John of Austria is going to the war.)
He moves a mighty turban on the timeless houri's knees,
His turban that is woven of the sunsets and the seas.
He shakes the peacock gardens as he rises from his ease,
And he strides among the tree-tops and is taller than the trees;
And his voice through all the garden is a thunder sent to bring
Black Azrael and Ariel and Ammon on the wing.
Giants and the Genii,
Multiplex of wing and eye,
Whose strong obedience broke the sky
When Solomon was king.

They rush in red and purple from the red clouds of the morn,
From the temples where the yellow gods shut up their eyes in scorn;
They rise in green robes roaring from the green hells of the sea
Where fallen skies and evil hues and eyeless creatures be,
On them the sea-valves cluster and the grey sea-forests curl,
Splashed with a splendid sickness, the sickness of the pearl;
They swell in sapphire smoke out of the blue cracks of the ground,--
They gather and they wonder and give worship to Mahound.
And he saith, "Break up the mountains where the hermit-folk can hide,
And sift the red and silver sands lest bone of saint abide,
And chase the Giaours flying night and day, not giving rest,
For that which was our trouble comes again out of the west.
We have set the seal of Solomon on all things under sun,
Of knowledge and of sorrow and endurance of things done.
But a noise is in the mountains, in the mountains, and I know
The voice that shook our palaces--four hundred years ago:
It is he that saith not 'Kismet'; it is he that knows not Fate;
It is Richard, it is Raymond, it is Godfrey at the gate!
It is he whose loss is laughter when he counts the wager worth,
Put down your feet upon him, that our peace be on the earth."
For he heard drums groaning and he heard guns jar,
(Don John of Austria is going to the war.)
Sudden and still--hurrah!
Bolt from Iberia!
Don John of Austria
Is gone by Alcalar.

St. Michaels on his Mountain in the sea-roads of the north
(Don John of Austria is girt and going forth.)
Where the grey seas glitter and the sharp tides shift
And the sea-folk labour and the red sails lift.
He shakes his lance of iron and he claps his wings of stone;
The noise is gone through Normandy; the noise is gone alone;
The North is full of tangled things and texts and aching eyes,
And dead is all the innocence of anger and surprise,
And Christian killeth Christian in a narrow dusty room,
And Christian dreadeth Christ that hath a newer face of doom,
And Christian hateth Mary that God kissed in Galilee,--
But Don John of Austria is riding to the sea.
Don John calling through the blast and the eclipse
Crying with the trumpet, with the trumpet of his lips,
Trumpet that sayeth ha!
Domino gloria!
Don John of Austria
Is shouting to the ships.

King Philip's in his closet with the Fleece about his neck
(Don John of Austria is armed upon the deck.)
The walls are hung with velvet that is black and soft as sin,
And little dwarfs creep out of it and little dwarfs creep in.
He holds a crystal phial that has colours like the moon,
He touches, and it tingles, and he trembles very soon,
And his face is as a fungus of a leprous white and grey
Like plants in the high houses that are shuttered from the day,
And death is in the phial and the end of noble work,
But Don John of Austria has fired upon the Turk.
Don John's hunting, and his hounds have bayed--
Booms away past Italy the rumour of his raid.
Gun upon gun, ha! ha!
Gun upon gun, hurrah!
Don John of Austria
Has loosed the cannonade.

The Pope was in his chapel before day or battle broke,
(Don John of Austria is hidden in the smoke.)
The hidden room in man's house where God sits all the year,
The secret window whence the world looks small and very dear.
He sees as in a mirror on the monstrous twilight sea
The crescent of his cruel ships whose name is mystery;
They fling great shadows foe-wards, making Cross and Castle dark,
They veil the plum"d lions on the galleys of St. Mark;
And above the ships are palaces of brown, black-bearded chiefs,
And below the ships are prisons, where with multitudinous griefs,
Christian captives sick and sunless, all a labouring race repines
Like a race in sunken cities, like a nation in the mines.
They are lost like slaves that sweat, and in the skies of morning hung
The stair-ways of the tallest gods when tyranny was young.
They are countless, voiceless, hopeless as those fallen or fleeing on
Before the high Kings' horses in the granite of Babylon.
And many a one grows witless in his quiet room in hell
Where a yellow face looks inward through the lattice of his cell,
And he finds his God forgotten, and he seeks no more a sign--
(But Don John of Austria has burst the battle-line!)
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop,
Purpling all the ocean like a bloody pirate's sloop,
Scarlet running over on the silvers and the golds,
Breaking of the hatches up and bursting of the holds,
Thronging of the thousands up that labour under sea
White for bliss and blind for sun and stunned for liberty.

Vivat Hispania!
Domino Gloria!
Don John of Austria
Has set his people free!

-GK Chesterton (there's one more stanza, but it didn't fit)
Debate Round No. 3
TrasguTravieso

Con

Yay!!

Lepanto continued:

Vivat Hispania!
Domino Gloria!
Don John of Austria
Has set his people free!

Cervantes on his galley sets the sword back in the sheath
(Don John of Austria rides homeward with a wreath.)
And he sees across a weary land a straggling road in Spain,
Up which a lean and foolish knight for ever rides in vain,
And he smiles, but not as Sultans smile, and settles back the blade....
(But Don John of Austria rides home from the Crusade.)
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by johnlubba 3 years ago
johnlubba
I would say he was a mad man.
Posted by TrasguTravieso 4 years ago
TrasguTravieso
Perhaps it would be good to copy it onto a word document before sending just in case if this is a recurring problem.
Posted by Samuelstinger91 4 years ago
Samuelstinger91
Are you serious?!?! It didn't post again? God dammit!!!!
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Samuelstinger91TrasguTraviesoTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Yay for poetry.
Vote Placed by Muted 4 years ago
Muted
Samuelstinger91TrasguTraviesoTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: God Exists! The Poem is PROOF!!!
Vote Placed by utahjoker 4 years ago
utahjoker
Samuelstinger91TrasguTraviesoTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Vivat Hispania! Domino Gloria!
Vote Placed by emj32 4 years ago
emj32
Samuelstinger91TrasguTraviesoTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Good poem!
Vote Placed by thett3 4 years ago
thett3
Samuelstinger91TrasguTraviesoTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: cat