The Instigator
FT
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Dinis
Con (against)
Tied
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God Doesn't Exist

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/13/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 months ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 530 times Debate No: 113887
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (12)
Votes (0)

 

FT

Pro

Here's my rough draft.

I am pretty sure an agreeable quality of God would be that he/she/it is not omnipotent and omnibenevolent at the same time, which is contradictory, but "benepotent", meaning he/she/it can and will do all that is good, such as creating and maintaining an evil-free existence or perfectly good existence. Our existence is both pragmatically and technically distinct from an evil-free or perfectly good one since it DOES contain evil, so I can conclude that God doesn't exist by definition. Why would you define God differently if what you call God can't maintain an evil-free or perfectly good existence?

Let me know what you think in both the debate and comments.
Dinis

Con

The existence of evil does not prove God not existing.

One, God made his angels and Jesus first. Therefore, He had servants following his rulership in the beginning.

Two, He made humans as a creation that would be able to enjoy what He created, such as the animals and Earth. He gave Humans free will, to decide whether they would willingly follow God"s rulership based on their love fore him. When Adam and Eve proved that they loved themselves more than God, and in turn sinned against Him, they brought imperfection not only to themselves, but to their kin. Therefore, human descendants are born with sin and there is evil in the world when people refuse to follow God"s will and love him.
Some angels also left God with the Devil, Satan, because they also wanted something they don"t deserve, Human worship. Satan is the instigator and he and his demons are the ones who instigated the evil that fell onto the world.

Why is God permitting evil to stay on Earth? Why not instantly destroy everything and restart?

When the Devil had made Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit, he had done so by making them question whether God"s rule over humans and angels was justifiable. The Devil questioned whether God had the right to govern people.
If God were to have elimated the Devil instantly, it would not have answered this question and brought even more doubt to the remaining angels that served Him.God is permitting evil to exist now to show Humans once and for all how WE NEED God"s rulership in order to live peacefully and happy. Once God comes and destroys this system of things, and lets his followers live on an Earthly paradise, no one would be capable of questioning His authority, because He would have already proven how He should rule over humans and we should worship Him.

This is an answer to the Devils question against God.
Debate Round No. 1
FT

Pro

So let me ask you some questions.

Does God, under your definition have the quality of maintaining a perfectly good existence or an existence free of evil where everyone is best off and there is no devil?

If the answer to the question above is no, what is your definition of God, and why call what you would call God, God if he can't maintain an evil free world?

You haven't told me whether you agreed to the quality of God I layered out
Dinis

Con

God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

He will keep a world of completely good and has the power to do anything

What I detailed in my previous answer is why God is permitting this present evil to exist. As to answer once and for all the challenge that has been brought against His sovereignty.

The main issue is WE humans want everything to quickly happen, we want it now. This is both selfish and careless of us, since there are still many in the world that wish to know the truth and have hope, so God is permitting a set amount of time to pass so that He can gather all those willing to follow Him. Those that deliberately avoid Him will be sentenced to death and those that didn"t have a chance, after the time comes, will have an opportunity in the 1000 years after Amargedon.

He wants as many followers to help teach all the ones that didn"t have a chance to learn, to finally learn in the 1000 years of peace for the final test.
Debate Round No. 2
FT

Pro

"God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent"

That would be contradictory since you are saying he can't do evil things (omnibenevolence) while he can do evil things (omnipotence).

"The main issue is WE humans want everything to quickly happen, we want it now."

So even if it was a perfectly good existence, it is bad that it happens instantly in the beginning? Because remember, a perfectly good existence is where everyone is best off by definition. Don't you want a perfectly good existence to happen instantly?

And you didn't really answer my question.

Does God, under your definition have the quality of maintaining a perfectly good existence or an existence free of evil where everyone is best off and there is no devil?
Dinis

Con

Omnipotent: All powerful; having unlimited power

Omnibenevolent: All loving,; infinitely good

By definition, what you state kind of doesn"t make sense. But I can still understand what you are asking.

Take this into account: In order for us to know what is good, there must be a persception of what is bad.
Now bad is not evil, each have two different meanings.
Evil involves things such as committing atrocities on purpose or accident, such as murder, rape, corruption, or such things.
Bad is based on what is good.

We know rape is evil
But
We know that falling on our face is bad, eating an extremely hot pepper is bad, but this is not evil, right?

Therefore, there will always be good and bad in the world. Because the bad is what helps dictate what is good. But bad is not evil

Therefore God will eliminate the evil from the world, but the bad will be present. Makes more sense?

God is always good and can maintain himself good. He CAN create a universe and world filled only with peace and happiness. Just because there is present evil does not determine that He is incapable of doing so.

I already stated my answer as to why God is permitting evil. One, He has to respond to the Devils challenge against His name once and for all. Two, God wants us to have free will, therefore He will not intervene in what we decide, but of course states what we should do if we wish to live forever.
Yes, God can make a perfectly good existence free of evil, but in order to maintain His wishes for His creation to have free will, this (The devil and humans disobeying God) happened. Therefore it is not His fault, but it is an outcome of what He has permitted.

Yes, a perfectly good world as robots? In order for you enjoy to life, God has allowed us to have opinions. But I already stated why God hasn"t brought instant good into the world, He wants us to excercise our free will, since that"s the point of free will.
It may be ideal, but to varying people
For your, it may, but what about that one person who is suffering from poverty, with no hope of a better future. It wouldn"t be ideal for them.

Rather God does not think in terms of ideal, but of reason and goodness.
Debate Round No. 3
FT

Pro

"Omnipotent: All powerful; having unlimited power

Omnibenevolent: All loving,; infinitely good

By definition, what you state kind of doesn"t make sense. But I can still understand what you are asking."

I hope you are trolling. How does it not make sense? Being omnibenevolent LIMITS what you can do such as evil or bad things. Being omnipotent ALLOWs you to do evil and bad things. Contradiction by definition.

"Now bad is not evil, each have two different meanings."

That depends on how you define bad and evil.

"Therefore, there will always be good and bad in the world."

Then you just admitted that a bad or evil free world is impossible. So I will say, why call him God if he/she/it can't maintain a bad and evil free existence instantly.

"He CAN create a universe and world filled only with peace and happiness."

Not just CAN, but WILL instantly, by definition: the quality to maintain an existence filled with only peace and happiness

"Just because there is present evil does not determine that He is incapable of doing so.", I never defined him/her/it to be incapable of maintaining a perfectly good existence or a universe filled with only peace and happiness.

"I already stated my answer as to why God is permitting evil."

Please quote me so I know what you are responding to. Assuming you are responding to this- "Does God, under your definition have the quality of maintaining a perfectly good existence or an existence free of evil where everyone is best off and there is no devil?"

God would NOT permit evil or bad things BECAUSE it would be an evil and bad thing to do GIVEN the power AND BY DEFINITION assuming you ignore the contradiction with omnipotence and omnibenevolence. You have NOT stated as to whether you agree to the definition, here's my refined one.

Do YOU define God to have the quality of maintaining a 100% evil-free and bad-free existence or a universe filled with only peace and happiness like you said, and NOT permitting evil and bad things.

"Two, God wants us to have free will, therefore He will not intervene in what we decide, but of course states what we should do if we wish to live forever."

A benepotent God would NOT want free will as it allows you to do bad things. He/She/It WOULD instead give people GOOD will or GOD's will. Better be "robots" that do good things for themselves and others as opposed to being "robots" that can do only good or bad things, would even putting in God's will make you a "robot"? Is God a robot?

"Yes, a perfectly good world as robots? In order for you enjoy to life, God has allowed us to have opinions. But I already stated why God hasn"t brought instant good into the world, He wants us to excercise our free will, since that"s the point of free will."

It is NOT necessary anyone needs to be a "robot" to instantly have a perfectly good existence, JUST as it is NOT necessary to instantly be a "robot" running on free will or God's will.

God DOE NOT need everyone to have opinions first BY DEFINITION in order for everyone to enjoy life. IF he/she/it can't have everyone enjoy life without needing to have everyone to have opinions, why call him/her/it God?
Dinis

Con

What, how were you able to come to that conclusion. God can be both infinitely powerful and totally good.

I even gave you the definitions. In no way does the definition omnipotent imply that you are able to do evil, it just means you are all powerful. Of course, a human could abuse this power, but God is not a human.

Omnipotent does not state you can do evil
Omnibenevolent states all your actions, reasoning, and personality are always good. Yes, there won"t be evil, but bad things is different from evil.

No, you didn"t even respond to my example.

If you were to fall on your face, we know that"s bad.
If you were to put your hand in a campfire, we know that"s bad
If you were to drink too much water, we know that"s bad.

Bad can be used to refer to evil things, BUT it does not mean evil. Therefore they are different things
Rather, Bad is used to determine unfavorable consequence from an action, while evil is towards malignant and damaging actions done on purpose.

So, no, you can take out evil, but there can always still be something bad.

I admitted that evil and bad are different. Just because you make bad subjective does not prove your argument that evil and bad are the same.

Fine, God is being who CAN keep and will make a 100 percent free evil world. He does not do this instantly because of the Devils challenge against his name and rulership.
If God would have instantly destroyed the Devil, the question whether God has the right to rule would still stand and taint his omnibenevolence, therefore God needs to respond to this challenge in the form of letting humans and the Devil rule for themselves, to show humans that they need God.
If God had not responded, He wouldn"t have been perfectly good since instance destruction could be seen as rash and unreasonable.

Therefore, An omnibenevolent being does mean they would keep a 100 percent evil free existence at all times. It just means that the being IS 100 percent evil free at all times.

By definition, omnibenevolent beings don"t have to keep a 100 percent evil free exiting universe, because this quality is to the being and not the universe.

Wrong. Why would a omnibenevolent being not want free will? It is rightfull decision to want His creation to worship Him. The appearance of evil is an unfortunate outcome, but then again, God is not responsible for the actions of an independent Human.

Yet, God is still good.
He is permitting evil to occur now, so that all those good can have a chance to serve Him. This also ties in to why God is permitting evil, because of the challenge.

Now, when God cleans the Earth, He will destroy any evil that pops up in the paradise afterwards, because the only reason why He is permitting evil now, is to respond to a challenge.

What do you mean robot?
If we don"t have free will or opinions, we ARE robots because as robots, we wouldn"t be able to decide on our own.

God is omnibenevolent, but even the definition states, that that does not mean He is supposed to keep a 100 percent evil free existence at all times, but to BE 100 percent evil free at all times.

Therefore, your main argument would be refuted.
Debate Round No. 4
FT

Pro

I don't think you know what being "All Powerful" means. Omnipotence by definition allows you to do evil.

So should have God have maintained an existence where it is a perfectly good world as soon as he existed? Because a perfectly good world is where everyone is best off by definition and having it instantly would be a 100% good thing. It would cost NOTHING to make a perfectly good world instantly since he/she/it is "omnipotent". Saying it is impossible is admitting God doesn't exist.

"Why would a omnibenevolent being not want free will?"

Because it allows people to do bad things, you haven't yet addressed why he doesn't give them good will or God's will since he is all good.

"The appearance of evil is an unfortunate outcome"

Which shouldn't possible under an "omnipotent", omnibenevolent, and omniscient being by definition.

"God is not responsible for the actions of an independent Human"

Wrong, he would be since he is an"omnipotent", omniscient, and omnibenevolent being by definition. If I had the power to make the world a place where everyone is best off, I would do it instantly and I would be infinitely more moral than your "God" will ever be. He wouldn't even need to take away "free will" to do it, he would only need to enforce good things to happen and again, and again it would be infinitely more moral to instantly create and maintain an existence where everyone is best off which is a perfectly good world by definition. If what you call God, can't instantly create and maintain a perfectly good existence, why call him God? I think it would make more sense to define God that way.

And like I stated, I don't think God exists,I however I want God to exist and believe it is possible to build God through technological progression since it increases and also accelerates. Hence a technological singularity like the big bang, supernova (that created the planets), or Cambrian explosion. As soon as he/she/it exists I envision we will have a perfectly good existence, and that being who creates it will be the one true God.

Message me if you want to discuss more in private or public
Dinis

Con

Okay, the literal definition doesn"t say anything about evil. I have no idea how.

It would have been very helpful if you provided an example or an even better explanation then just stating "An omnipotent being can be evil"

Second, having unlimited power does not mean you can cause evil.

Being Omnipotent and omnibenevolent is plausible. A being that has infinite power but only uses it for good.

I think you misunderstand me.

IN ORDER for there to BE GOOD there has to be something BAD

You have not addressed any of my examples, and blantanly went ahead with bad=evil.

If a human is more highly moral than God, then we"re in deep trouble.

God wants living creatures to live peacefully and in happiness, but He first has to answer a challenge brought against His name. God will not instantly make th world full of Good yet, because that would destroy His omnibenevolent quality.
Debate Round No. 5
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Dinis 4 months ago
Dinis
One. Killing is very different for every being.

Humans do not have the right to other humans, therefore, without God"s permission, you can not kill since you be claiming a life unrightfully yours.

Second, God created everything and everything rightfully belongs to Him, no one can say what He has the right to claim, not even a life, since He is the one to create life.

Lucifer disobeyed God not because God wasn"t perfect enough, it was because he wanted humans to worship him, as the devil. Therefore, because he had free will, he chose his own desires over the desires of God.

Lastly, God has the capability to see the future, but dictating the future would render free will useless, something God wants in his sapient creations.
As well, God can"t simply wipe everything out and start again, since the Devil has challenged his sovereignty and now must answer back to it.
Posted by Justin1984 4 months ago
Justin1984
If god is pure and just 100%, then why did Lucifer question anything. If God was as smart and all seeing as he claimed why did he not see his own creations turn on him. He claims to be all that is good but has vengeance like no other. Evil has very clear lines and very blurred lines. But i think i can say without a doubt that killing in vengeance and fury would be considered bad no matter who was getting killed. Humans have been told from day one that you must not kill. But our own countries have wars where millions are killed by regular god fearing people. Either the bible was bestowed upon us by the god of hypocrisy and counter productivity, or it was a creation of man that has gotten way out of hand. Either way i am good with that. I don't need to be threatened with the eternal fires of hell to be a kind person. I also find the fact that god NEEDS to be worshiped troublesome. Only megalomaniacs and narcissists need that level of attention. Both of those types of people are terrible leaders.
Posted by missmedic 4 months ago
missmedic
The idea of Satan, is to remove moral accountability. The devil made me do it...........................
Posted by Dinis 4 months ago
Dinis
Freedom of what? Everything bad has come because of Satan. It"s not as if they were suffering either under God"s hand, in fact, they rejoiced in God"s glory because he is merciful and good.

You"re happy Lucifer is here with us?
Posted by BaphometSgl 4 months ago
BaphometSgl
Even if god existed and make some angels ,the angels did't have free will so they was slaves to god,
are you blaming Lucifer for fighting for his freedom? :P
Posted by Dinis 4 months ago
Dinis
Obviously the grain came from the heavens and was lodged in Jesus shirt, then when it fell, it had the Holy Spirit.

No, I"m kidding. I don"t know of any toast. .-.
Posted by BaphometSgl 4 months ago
BaphometSgl
If god exist why the best evidence we have is some toasts with his face?

Checkmate Theists! :P
Posted by Dinis 4 months ago
Dinis
@Im_Intellgient You obviously know how to think, you have an opinion and sense of intricate reasoning, I respect you for that.

Yes, many say God should have known all of this would happen, but no. God has the capability to see the future and dictate the future if He wants to. It"s not as if He is bound to always see the future and every outcome.
That is why we have free will and why there is sin. He is permitting humans to decide whether or not we will serve Him. He could have easily made a world in which perfect beings worshipped Him without fault, but that would defeat the purpose of free will. He wants us to serve Him because we love, not because He makes us. Adam and Eve had everything to lose and nothing to gain, how could they have been set up to lose.

Remind you, you don"t have this capability of seeing the future.
Posted by Dinis 4 months ago
Dinis
Jesus: Colossians 1:15,18 ; Revelations 1:5, 3:14 Hebrews 1:2 Proverbs 8: 22

Obviously, in order for the Devil to even tempt Eve in the first place, he had to have been an angel first. Therefore, Angels existed before the creation of Earth or Humans.
Posted by backwardseden 4 months ago
backwardseden
@Dinis - "One, God made his angels and Jesus first" ACCORDING TO WHAT? Not ANY bible. And YOUR jesus, in which you do not worship properly (thankfully because you haven't given up your family, nor have you given up ALL of your possessions in which would be downright stupid, nor do you love your enemies as your christ orders you to do in the NT) was not created until the NT. PE-RI-OD. Where do you come up with this nonsense? Chapters and verses only please.
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