The Instigator
daley
Pro (for)
Winning
25 Points
The Contender
devient.genie
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

God Exists

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
daley
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/16/2012 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,135 times Debate No: 27282
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (12)
Votes (4)

 

daley

Pro

God: An immaterial being that transcends all space and time, a supernatural being that defies our current laws of physics.

The astrophysical evidence indicates that the universe began to exist about 15 billion years ago at the Big Bang. Physical space and time were created in that event, as well as all the matter and energy in the universe. Atheists usually claim that it popped into being out of nothing, but surely that doesn't make sense! Out of nothing, nothing comes. Everything that has a beginning, has a cause, so there must have been a cause which brought the universe into being. As the cause of time and space, it must be timeless and transcend space. As the origin of all the matter in the universe it must also be immaterial - not physical. It must be uncaused because there cannot be an infinite regress of causes. It must also be personal. For how else could a timeless cause give rise to a temporal effect like the universe? If the cause were an impersonal set of sufficient conditions, then the cause could never exist without the effect. If the sufficient conditions were timelessly present, then the effect would be timelessly present as well. The only way for the cause to be timeless but for the effect to begin in time is if the cause is a personal agent who freely chooses to create an effect in time without any prior determining conditions. Thus, we have scientific evidence that the cause of the universe possesses attributes unique to what Christians call God - being uncaused, timeless, immaterial, personal, and of course must be very powerful in order to be the source of all the energy in the universe.

Stephen Hawking has estimated that if the rate of the universe's expansion one second after the Big Bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have re-collapsed into a hot fireball. (Stephen W. Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam Books, 1988), p. 123) P.C.W. Davies has calculated that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for star formation is one followed by a thousand billion billion zeroes. (P. C. W. Davies, Other Worlds (London: Dent, 1980), pp. 160161, 168169) There are around 50 such constants present in the Big Bang itself which have to be finely-tuned in this way if the universe is to permit life. What's more, their ratios to each other must also be finely tuned. In the absence of any physical reason why these values should be fine-tuned in this way, it is obvious that the universe is designed. This alternative makes a lot more sense to me than the atheistic interpretation that the universe, when it popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing, just happened to be, by chance, finetuned for intelligent life with an incomprehensible precision and delicacy.

On the atheistic view, rape may not be socially advantageous, and so in the course of human development has become taboo. But that does absolutely nothing to prove that rape is really wrong. For the theist, there's nothing really wrong with your raping someone. Thus, without God there is no absolute right and wrong which imposes itself on our conscience. So I'll leave it up to my opponent to choose. Either he must show me where objective morals come from in the absence of God, or admit that there is no objective morality, and therefore there is nothing wrong with rape.

Finally, the evidence for God comes in the facts concerning the resurrection of Jesus. There are four facts that are universally agreed upon by New Testament scholars, both Christian and non-Christian. 1, His honorable burial by Joseph of Aramethea. As a member of the Jewish Sanherin that condemned Jesus, Joseph is unlikely to be a Christian invention. 2, The fact that his empty tomb was found empty by women in a time and place where women's testimony was considered worthless testifies to the honesty of the writers. It was embarrassing but they recorded it anyway, even recording the unbelief the apostles themselves when the women gave their testimony. 3, On separate occasions individuals and groups of people saw Jesus alive from the dead. These appearances were physical, and lasted over a period of 40 days, longer than any hallucination could. Finally, 4, the original disciples came to believe in the resurrection despite their having every reason not to. Their leader was dead, and Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded anyone rising to eternal life before the end of the world. Scholars have tried in vain to explain away these four facts, but since no one has come up with a rational, naturalistic explanation, we are perfectly justified in saying that we believe God raised Jesus from the dead. That entails, that God exists.

So my opponent has to tear down all the scientific evidence for God's existence, plus the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. Then he must erect a case of his own to show that God doesn't exist. Until he does that, then the evidence stands that God exists.
devient.genie

Con

A personal god is a form of mental weakness created by early man. The same early man who believed the earth was the center of the universe.

Just because a bunch of ignorant dirtballs manipulated early man with stories of a god who came to the most illiterate parts of the world, doesnt make the probabiliy of a god any more likely than zeus, or any other childish belief.

Evolution by natural selection is a well substantiated theory. Another well substantiated theory is the theory of gravity.

Anyone who needs help appreciating a scientific theory canb test the theory of gravity by jumping out of a 10 storey building and then writing their opinion of scientific theory.

The reason for the Fibonacci Sequence, evolution by natural selection, the beginning of the universe, the power of our gravity, the mandelbrot set, and all the stars and galaxies is currently undefined and undetermined.

Choosing answers to these questions from any holy writings is like choosing a recipe book for answers to fractal geometry.

Spliiting hairs with religious doctrine to define the reason for everything, is nothing short of delusional.

When mankind as whole, is suffieciently intelligently evolved, a paper airplane maker and a religious leader will have the same level of respect. Until then, suckling knowledge and wisdom from a holy binky of anykind will be our achilles heel :)
Debate Round No. 1
daley

Pro

You argue that having "a personal god is a form of mental weakness." There are millions of very mentally stable persons today who believe in God, and there is no proof that they have some kind of mental illness. Is William Lane Craig, Professor of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology a mentally weak person? What is your definition of mental weakness? Believers are no less mentally stable than unbelievers. The same early man who believed the earth was the center of the universe was made of both theists and atheists alike, so non-believers are no better off in this respect. Were atheists of the past mentally weak because they believed in a flat earth before the discovery of gravity? A lack of scientific knowledge in some respects is no evidence of mental weakness. At least ancient theists had a foundation for living moral lives, and were not moral nihilists. In the absence of God, the morality evolved by homo sapiens is just a social adaptation, an aid to survival like our teeth and hands. As animals, there can be no right or wrong, for when a lion eats a zebra he doesn"t kill her; and when a white male shark forcibly copulates with a female he doesn"t rape her. These things go on all the time in the animal kingdom and there is no moral dimension to these things. So for the atheist, there can be no objective morality. I therefore ask you again, is rape wrong? If so, why? Are you afraid to actually answer my arguments? Can you not for once in your life be mature enough to have an intellectual discussion that doesn"t involve you throwing stones in your little glass house?

Man has always believed in God. There was no time at which he was first manipulated into believing in him, for this belief is as old as man"s earliest writings. Strange that you should describe early man as illiterate, when the Hebrew language is more complex than most modern ones. The early Egyptians built the pyramids and had Pythagoras theorem before Pythagoras was born. Just because a bunch of "ignorant dirtballs manipulated" some men into believing that the universe popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing, doesn"t make it true. Just because a bunch of "ignorant dirtballs manipulated" you into believing that living things happened to pop into existence out of unliving matter doesn"t make abiogenesis any more likely than Santa Clause, or any other childish belied.

Evolution by natural selection is not a well substantiated theory. A 35-year experiment by evolutionists illustrates how things actually work. "Instead of waiting for natural selection, the researchers forced selection on populations of fruit flies over hundreds of generations. "They used variation to breed fruit flies that develop from egg to adult 20% faster than normal. "But, as usual when breeding plants and animals, there was a down side. "In this case the fruit flies weighed less, lived shorter lives, and were less resistant to starvation. "There were many mutations, but none caught on, and the experiment ran into the limits of variation. "They wrote that "forward experimental evolution can often be completely reversed with these populations". ""Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles." ""The probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments." --Burke, Molly K., Joseph P. Dunham, Parvin Shahrestani, Kevin R. Thornton, Michael R. Rose, Anthony D. Long. 30 September 2010. Genome-wide analysis of a long-term evolution experiment with Drosophila. Nature, Vol. 467, pp. 587-590.

Here is how the imaginary part is supposed to happen:"On rare occasions a mutation in DNA improves a creature's ability to survive, so it is more likely to reproduce (natural selection). "That is evolution's only tool for making new creatures. "It might even work if it took just one gene to make and control one part. "But parts of living creatures are constructed of intricate components with connections that all need to be in place for the thing to work, controlled by many genes that have to act in the proper sequence. "Natural selection would not choose parts that did not have all their components existing, in place, connected, and regulated because the parts would not work. "Thus all the right mutations (and none of the destructive ones) must happen at the same time by pure chance. "That is physically impossible. There is no such thing as a beneficial mutation. No scientist has ever seen one, if you have, show it to me.

Con, you argue that evolution is so well substantiated but you give no evidence, which is sad to see that you have all bark and no bite. You say the origin of the universe is currently undefined: you fly in the face of the currently accepted theory of the Big Bang among cosmologist and astrophysicists. If you disagree with the Big Bang, please state why, but childishly barking "it"s not true" and throwing insults at ancient people will not help your infantile case.

I never chose answers to the origin of the universe from any holy book, but I appealed to logic which you were too afraid to respond to. The majority of the scientific community agrees that the singularity which exploded at the Big Bang represents the origin of all time, space, matter and energy. Thus, the cause of the Big Bang would have to transcend all time and space, and be immaterial. This sounds a lot like God to me. So my claim is a scientific one. It isn"t taken from a holy book. Interestingly, you still haven"t replied to the facts concerning Jesus" resurrection as documented in the Gospels which are indeed just as historical as Josephus and Tacitus writings.

Five histones are involved in DNA. The chance of forming even the simplest of these histones is said to be one in 20100"a huge number "larger than the total of all the atoms in all the stars and galaxies visible in the largest astronomical telescopes." (Evolution From Space, p. 27) But any probability less than 1050 is recognized by Mathematicians as never happening!

Con, if you are so intellectually lazy that you cannot deal with my arguments, then why bother debating? Do you enjoy getting thrashed? Maybe your atheistic dogmatism cannot give meaning to your life, and that"s why you attack those who do have meaningful lives. Death is not the end for me. Dr. Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper completed a two-year study into the near-death experiences (NDEs) of the blind. They published their findings in a book entitled "Mindsight" in which they documented the solid evidence of 31 cases in which blind people report visually accurate information obtained during NDEs. Perhaps the best example in his study is that of a forty-five year old blind woman by the name of Vicki Umipeg. Vicki was born blind, her optic nerve having been completely destroyed at birth because of an excess of oxygen she received in the incubator. Yet, she appears to have been able to see during her NDE. (Ring, K., & Cooper, S. (1999) Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind) Like Vicki, I too have a soul that can leave my body; I will live on for my heavenly reward after this body dies. But in your pessimistic atheist philosophy, there is no ultimate punishment for the wicked, or reward for the righteous. Adolf Hitler got away with it. It makes no difference how you live. No wonder you lash out the way you do at spiritual people. If only you"d accept God in your heart, you"ll be able to let go of the bitterness, and experience the peace of Christ.
devient.genie

Con

Its obvious you are not aware of true scripture. True scripture, offers insight from higher levels of intuition, intellect and instinct.

Lets take a look:

TRICKS 6:19--Read and wholeheartedly believe in the teachings from a really old book that has been translated thousands of times, indoctrinate children with that belief that the reason for life, and all the stars and galaxies will send bad kids to hell and thinks its a good idea to stone someone who picks up sticks in Numbers 15:32-36, hammer that disgusting, vile, wicked and immoral rubbish, from a "holy binky" into your children because we cant be moral without our binky to suckle, were just "widdle kids" and we need our binky to suckle when things are going bad, its our binky to suck when we get scared, when we're unsure we pull knowledge from the holy binky, cuz it "feels good", becasue its a "metaphysical thing" that is the nutritional equivalent to feeding your child a plate of what you scraped from underneath a dumpster at a McDonalds parking lot. All that "gunk-n-stuff" into your childs brain and presto, you figured out how to abuse your childs youth without yelling or hitting them. Way to go :)

WARNINGS 3:2--Do NOT assume a religious person has limits to how wicked, or ignorant they will be, NEVER put anything ridiculous past the delusional mind of a religious person, because if a human can convince themselves the reason for everything instigates human sacrifice, orders people killed, and is admittingly jealous, they can convince themselves of anything :)

Those two scriptures are very damning evidence that things are going to be slow going for human concioussness if we cant get everyone to wake up and quit suckling from a binky like a "widdle kid" :)

However true scripture, is also more inspirational, because it doesnt involve killing anyone who is different than you like binky scripture does, take a look:

WISHES 12:44--When all supernatural beliefs and gods are finally swimming with the unicorns and leprechauns, this is gonna be one fun planet :)

DevientGenie 4:5--If you're outside looking at the stars without a big smile on your face or a feeling of awe in your heart, you're not doing it right :)

Its very important for humans to appreciate their intuition, intellect and instinct. Allowing your intuition, intellect and instinct to stretch their legs, prevents atrophy of those characteristics. Atrophy occurs when you suckle malnutrition from a holy binky.

WISHES 3:7--We just need to raise our conciousness. Just a simple small step, and all agree that questioning the origins of human life becasue of our current scientific knowledge is NOT somehow inherintley wrong, or rude, or offensive in any way just because those truths contradict words in a holy book. Once we all agree on that, we will begin to embrace the beautiful truths and explanations for the complexity of life and ultimitley have the conciousness to let go of the dull lazy answers that "god did it", "its gods will", "its gods way of testing us" "It says so in my holy binky" :)

DUH 11:8--Think of information as nutrition for the brain. Education is then nutrition for the brain. So it stands to reason you would want thoughts, ideas, information and education to be as nutritious as possible. If thats so then we would be teaching "I dont know the reason for everything, lets roll up our sleeves and keep looking", instead religion teaches"The reason for everything is admittingly jealous and proud of it, plus you dont have to look far, the reason for everything can convict you of thought crimes" :)

Most humans who become infected with religious dogma are extremely brainwashed and intellectually malnourished. This leads them to do bad things even though they are good people.

"Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things -- that takes religion."
-- Steven Weinberg

How is that possible?

Otherwise good people, for example, pull the "yes" lever on ballot measures aimed at denying certain folks the same rights they (otherwise good people) freely enjoy because their religion instructs them to do so in the name of god.

Hence, religion making otherwise good people do bad things :)

True scripture teaches us how to avoid being a slave to fairy tale beliefs and how to be a big kid that doesnt need to suckle a holy binky :)

Thoughts 8:9--Thru the combination of intuition, intellect and instinct a man creates his thought. A lack or sever depletion of any of those three ingredients, will result in fairy tale beliefs to satisfy the fear that remains as a result of lack of those three ingredients :)

EVOLUTION 11:10--Biological evolution is genetic change in a population from one generation to another. The speed and direction of change is variable with different species lines and at different times. Continuous evolution over many generations can result in the development of new varieties and species. Likewise, failure to evolve in response to environmental changes can, and often does, lead to extinction. When scientists speak of evolution as a theory they do not mean that it is a mere speculation. It is a theory in the same sense as the propositions that the earth is round rather than flat or that our bodies are made of atoms are theories. Most people would consider such fundamental theories to be sufficiently tested by empirical evidence to conclude that they are indeed facts. As a result of the massive amount of evidence for biological evolution accumulated over the last two centuries, we can safely conclude that evolution has occurred and continues to occur. All life forms, including humans, evolved from earlier species, and all still living species of organisms continue to evolve today. They are not unchanging end-products :)

Now, many weak religious people will be standoffish towards true scripture because true scripture is riddled with the truth, and the truth is corrosive to typical religious dogma.

DevientGenie 8:22--Believers in a god do good for the sake of getting a reward and avoiding punishment after death, non believers in Bronze Aged fiction, do good becasue theyre nice :)

Owyuken 2:6-- The Religous views on Science: Grrrrr, or, thats kinda neat and/or weird....huh, or devil, or conspiracy, or money grubbing lazy stupid scientists, or incomplete or inadequate, or so what?, whats scinece have to do with anything?, or just flat out impossible to be even close to correct. The brilliant mind of a highly educated person in all areas of all industries in society says about science: Wow...Each discovery is INSPIRING, because it gives me HOPE for the future, and I feel the LOVE with a closer connection to the universe, and I have FAITH that science will find a way to BLESS AND SAVE me and make life better, whenever it can, because it is simply the most BEAUTIFUL AND MAGICAL simply becasue we know its real, and because we know how it works. Science is done by brilliant minded individuals who win Nobel Prizes , NOT idiots, or pedophiles" :)

BigKids 14:7--Do not avoid and ignore those who are good without god, pity those that need god to be good :)

CryBabies 2:14--Are religious people allergic to thinking for themselves or just scared to think for themselves? :)

DUH 12:31--In the buffet of life, choosing religious doctrine over logic and reason, is like choosing dried out liver over fresh prime rib :)

DevientGenie 6:48--The Genie's appreciation and understandings of the universe and life, is not two steps, or ten steps ahead of a religious person, it is flights of stairs ahead :)

EVOLUTION 3:5--You dont need an airbag to survive a car crash, its just that the air bag drastically improves your chances of survival. Just like you dont need to teach kids science if you want them to be smart, it just increases the chances of a higher intelligence :)

DUH 7:15--Fortune cookies predict the future in the same way that prayer to a god changes it :)
Debate Round No. 2
daley

Pro

daley forfeited this round.
devient.genie

Con

"Get up! I aint heard no bell!--Mic in the cult classic Rocky

Now back to big kids stuff :)

DevientGenie 7:14-- The Genies faith in science NEVER wavers. Wavering is a religious action. :)

DEFECTS 3:7--In the case of religion, unshakable faith and ignorance are siamese twins :)

DUH 6:14--Smart guys think condoms are an awesome, necessary invention, dumb guys dont, and the really dumb ones are in vatican city :)

CaptainObvious 6:2--Cherry Picking, because there isnt a better term to use for the selection process of the religious mind when it comes to beliefs and scripture :)

BigKids 9:25--Atheists are just A-Santa Claus-ists, who continue to keep it real :)

DevientGenie 17:36--The Genie's sharp stinging wit comes from a lance dipped in truth and is invaluable because of its corrective nature towards blasphemy of science and/or brilliant scientists. The sting is especially sharp and offensive to those who are slavish to ancient religious beliefs that ultimitley lead to an infestation of divisiveness in our social structure and an overexaggeration of influence into education and politics on a massive scale :)

Evidence 7:4--There are millions, YES, LITERALLY MILLIONS, of pieces of information available that independently, prove evolution, yes, independently. Thats how obvious Darwinian Natural Selection and evolution are to the minds of brilliant men and women, not conspiracists, devils, idiots or pedophiles :)

THOUGHTS 20:3--Science ideas start as a collection of creative hypothesis on to becoming a valid explanation of things, religions start as a creative hypothesis of things and stay that way :)

INVENTIONS 9:12--JUNE 2012, new particles were developed, not discovered, developed, by a team at Boston Children's Hospital that will let you live without breathing. This new particle will allow medical teams to keep patients alive and well for 15 to 30 minutes despite major respiratory failure. This is enough time for doctors and emergency personnel to act without risking a heart attack or permanent brain injuries in the patient. Thank You medical science for figuring out how to bless and save us while mr out of shape rests like he did on the 7th day..DURRRR DEEE DURR :)

DUH 17:2--The bible is the word of god? All of it or some of it? Thats right, pick and choose so you feel better for not praising a homophobe.."In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error." (Romans 1:27)

WAKEUP 5:8--Our beliefs inspire and create our world. The devisiveness and hypocracy of religious beliefs only make sense in a small ignorant world. If you were wondering what size our world is now, its a lot bigger, more beautiful, magical, and inspirational than the respect that it is currently given with religious views running the show. Lets allow the big kids to take over from here and those who need a god to be good, go read your holy binky and go night night :)

Brainiacs 6:18--Theres more talk of supporting slavery than talk of condeming homosexuality in the word of god written in the holy binky, yet we outgrew slavery but got hung up on two girls kissing. Sounds like a bunch of cry baby pansies cherry picking what to suckle out of the binky :)

GAMEOVER 1:14--Back in the day, back when these holy books were being created, two commonly made observations supported the delusion that the Earth was the center of the Universe. The first observation was that the stars, sun, and planets appear to revolve around the Earth each day, making the Earth the center of that system. Further, every star was on a "stellar" or "celestial" sphere, of which the earth was the center, that rotated each day, using a line through the north and south pole as an axis. The stars closest to the equator appeared to rise and fall the greatest distance, but each star circled back to its rising point each day.The second common notion supporting the geocentric model was that the Earth does not seem to move from the perspective of an Earth bound observer, and that it is solid, stable, and unmoving. In other words, it is completely at rest. Thanks to scientific discovery, we know now those bronze age kids are wrong about more than just religious views :)

SPONSORS 5:38--The only assertion the Genie makes, is that he doesnt know everything. He doesnt need to know everything to know that there arent unicorns. No need to know everything to know there are not leprechauns. Its only tough to let go because of pride. Pride is the only thing you can swallow that will never give you heartburn or indigestion, so feel free to LEARN and then you'll be forced to admit that science is either the devil or in a massive conspiracy, either that, or the theory of gravity and the theory of evolution are in fact both theories. Theory in science means somehting completely different than a theory of god, or theory of unicorns, or theory of leprechauns, learn about the word "theory" in scientific terms, then say something. As always we Thank our faithful sponsors, CHECK and MATE :)

WAKEUP 7:9--Evolution is trying to tell us something, the power of conciousness, is why our species even had the opportunity to continue. Homo Habilis is before Homo erectus and before archaic homo sapiens, and ultimitey before us, modern homosapien. Modern meaning, not just in physical terms, but also concious terms. 2.3 million yrs ago was the first time we noticed weaponry among any species. Tools and weapons were not visible in any species before homo habilis. With weapons and tools, homo habilis increases its chance of survival and opens the door for that lineage to continue to evolve and improve over many, many years to ultimitely becoming us, modern homosapiens...it may be mind numbing and boggling to comprehend, but it took place very gradualy over billions of years NOT thousands :)

THEORY 1:1--A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment." Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and do not make apodictic propositions; instead, they aim for predictive and explanatory force. The strength of a scientific theory is related to the diversity of phenomena it can explain, which is measured by its ability to make falsifiable predictions with respect to those phenomena. Theories are improved as more evidence is gathered, so that accuracy in prediction improves over time. Scientists use theories as a foundation to gain further scientific knowledge, as well as to accomplish goals such as inventing technology or curing disease. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge. This is significantly different from the word "theory" in common usage, which implies that something is unproven or speculative :)

EVENTS 4:12--Ingersoll Day is an annual celebration on or around August 11th, the birthday of Robert Green Ingersoll, to celebrate the life and works of one of the most popular freethinkers in US history. Heard by more Americans than any human being before the advent of motion pictures and radio, Robert Ingersoll was the most successful orator in nineteenth century America. A leading political figure, he campaigned against slavery and for the rights of women and minorities. Known as the "Great Agnostic," he attracted huge crowds to lectures that criticized religion and promoted freethought. :)

DevientGenie 14:64--People like to say science and stem cells, goes too far and is playing or being like a god, great, we should be grateful at least somebody is brave enough to step up :)
Debate Round No. 3
daley

Pro

TRICKS 6:19 Attacking Biblical theology is no disproof of God. I"m quite comfortable to accept there are errors in the Bible, which I never argued was in totality the infallible word of God anyway. As historical documents, the four Gospels detailing the life of Jesus contain errors as any other historical work (ie, Josephus, Tacitus) contain errors. But these are still recognized by historians as very accurate regarding the times they record. They all agree on the four facts you childishly avoid: his burial, empty tomb, appearances, and the origin of the Christian belief in his resurrection.

The Gospels are eyewitness testimony; this is evidence from their own testimony (John 1:14, 19:35; 21:24" 2 Peter 1:16; 1 John 1:3),"the "explicit acknowledgment of the "presence of eyewitness "by "those who"ve "been with Jesus and were involved in the Jesus story (Luke 1:1-3, Acts 2:24),"and those who"ve received the Jesus tradition from an eyewitnesses perspective or even have "been "the disciples of an eyewitness (Papias, Iraneus, Justin Martyr , Athanasius of Alexandra). Many scholars agree with this, among whom are F.F. Bruce, Richard Bauckham, Darrell Bock, Paul Rhodes Eddy, Gregory A. Boyd, Craig A. Evans, Craig S. Keener, and E. Earle. Ellis, Craig Blomberg, W. D. Davies, Andreas Kostenberger, Birger Gerhardsson, Samuel "Byrskog, Robert H. Stein, and many more. So if you don"t trust the Gospels as historical documents, the question is, why?

If we look at the author's own descriptions of their work, it is clear that they did not intend their readers to see the account as fictional. All four Gospels have a straight-forward, narrative style which contains none of the flourish and fanciful writing of myths from that era. Both John and Luke expressly state in their Gospels that they are writing accounts of actual events. (Luke 1:1-4; John 21:24) In describing the stories and testimony that they have been preaching through the land, Peter writes: "We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For we were not making up clever stories when we told you about the powerful coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We saw his majestic splendor with our own eyes." (2 Peter 1:16)

We need to acknowledge that there is no evidence of anyone coming forward in the first century to dispute the claims of the apostles. There are accounts of Jesus in ancient Jewish and Roman texts, and while they claim that Jesus' power came from sorcery, these sources acknowledge His life, death and even the miracles He performed. If Jesus were a fictional character, these accounts would dispute the apostle's tale, or more likely, would not exist at all.
The apostles continued to preach the Gospel for the rest of their lives even though it meant torture, imprisonment and death. The idea that these accounts were fictional is totally inconsistent with the way the apostles were willing to sacrifice their lives. No one would be willing to die for a story they made up.

I don"t see how Old Testament killing in the name of God proves God doesn"t exist anymore than the Spanish Inquisition proves that the Pope didn"t exist. All this means is that you disagree with how God handled these situations. That does nothing to prove he doesn"t exist. You stick on the fact that God is jealous, may I ask, what is wrong with Jealousy? If you catch your wife taking some hard dick from the other guy, would you not feel jealous? Why shouldn"t God be jealous when people like you give his worship to empty scientific theories that end up with a long lousy list of "I don"t knows" when you should be turning to him? You even have the audacity to talk about good and bad, fact is, without God there is no good or bad, right or wrong: if there is no lawgiver, then morality is just a by-product of socio-evolution, and I see no reason to think such views developed by animals could be objective. There is no morality in the animal kingdom, so you can"t justly condemn anything, not even religion, without God as a source to anchor your moral values. Now I"ll just ask you why it"s wrong to rape an innocent woman? Cause you say its wrong? Cause many millions say its wrong? Is truth decided by majority vote? Who are you, or they, to impose their values on another?
True scripture like the Bible, teaches us how to avoid being a slave to fairy tale beliefs like your great, great, great, great grandmother being an ape.

I don"t do good for the reward, I do it because it is the right thing to do. Who are you to judge?

Evolution mixes two things together, one real, one imaginary. "Variation (microevolution) is the real part. "The types of bird beaks, the colors of moths, leg sizes, etc. are variation. Each type and length of beak a finch can have is already in the gene pool for finches. "Creationists have always agreed that there is variation within species. "What evolutionists do not want you to know is that there are strict limits to variation that are never crossed, something every breeder of animals or plants is aware of. "Whenever variation is pushed to extremes by selective breeding (to get the most milk from cows, sugar from beets, bristles on fruit flies, or any other characteristic), the line becomes sterile and dies out. "And as one characteristic increases, others diminish. "But evolutionists want you to believe that changes continue, merging gradually into new kinds of creatures. "This is where the imaginary part of the theory of evolution comes in. "It says that new information is added to the gene pool by mutation and natural selection to create frogs from fish, reptiles from frogs, and mammals from reptiles, to name a few.

Do these big changes (macroevolution) really happen? "Evolutionists tell us we cannot see evolution taking place because it happens too slowly. "A human generation takes about 20 years from birth to parenthood. "They say it took tens of thousands of generations to form man from a common ancestor with the ape, from populations of only hundreds or thousands. "We do not have these problems with bacteria. "A new generation of bacteria grows in as short as 12 minutes or up to 24 hours or more, depending on the type of bacteria and the environment, but typically 20 minutes to a few hours. "There are more bacteria in the world than there are grains of sand on all of the beaches of the world (and many grains of sand are covered with bacteria). "They exist in just about any environment: heat, cold, dry, wet, high pressure, low pressure, small groups, large colonies, isolated, much food, little food, much oxygen, no oxygen, in toxic chemicals, etc. "There is much variation in bacteria. "There are many mutations (in fact, evolutionists say that smaller organisms have a faster mutation rate than larger ones). "But they never turn into anything new. "They always remain bacteria. "Fruit flies are much more complex than already complex single-cell bacteria. "Scientists like to study them because a generation (from egg to adult) takes only 9 days. "In the lab, fruit flies are studied under every conceivable condition. "There is much variation in fruit flies. "There are many mutations. "But they never turn into anything new. "They always remain fruit flies. "Many years of study of countless generations of bacteria and fruit flies all over the world shows that evolution is not happening today.

Con hasn"t refuted my 3 main arguments - the origin of the universe, the existence of objective moral values, and the facts concerning Jesus" resurrection. All he has done is attack irrelevant religious doctrines and throw insults at religious people. I"ve debunked his defunct theory of evolution, which he provides no evidence for. In these circumstances, please vote Pro.
devient.genie

Con

These "eyewitnesses" mean nothing. Joseph Smith had "eyewitnesses".

Imagine that I tell you the following story:

I was in my room one night.
Suddenly, my room became exceedingly bright.
Next thing I know there is an angel in my room.
He tells me an amazing story.
He says that there is a set of ancient golden plates buried in the side of a hill in New York.
On them are the books of a lost race of Jewish people who inhabited North America.
These plates bear inscriptions in the foreign language of these people.
Eventually the angel leads me to the plates and lets me take them home.
Even though the plates are in a foreign language, the angel helps me to decipher and translate them.
Then the plates are taken up into heaven, never to be seen again.
I have the book that I translated from the plates. It tells of amazing things -- an entire civilization of Jewish people living here in the United States 2,000 years ago.
And the resurrected Jesus came and visited these people!
I also showed the golden plates to a number of real people who are my eye witnesses, and I have their signed attestations that they did, in fact, see and touch the plates before the plates were taken up into heaven.
Now, what would you say to me about this story? Even though I do have a book, in English, that tells the story of this lost Jewish civilization, and even though I do have the signed attestations, what do you think? This story sounds nutty, doesn't it?
You would ask some obvious questions. For example, at the very simplest level, you might ask, "Where are the ruins and artifacts from this Jewish civilization in America?" The book transcribed from the plates talks about millions of Jewish people doing all kinds of things in America. They have horses and oxen and chariots and armor and large cities. What happened to all of this? I answer simply: it is all out there, but we have not found it yet. "Not one city? Not one chariot wheel? Not one helmet?" you ask. No, we haven't found a single bit of evidence, but it is out there somewhere. You ask me dozens of questions like this, and I have answers for them all.

Most people would assume that I am delusional if I told them this story. They would assume that there were no plates and no angel, and that I had written the book myself. Most people would ignore the attestations -- having people attest to it means nothing, really. I could have paid the attesters off, or I could have fabricated them. Most people would reject my story without question.

What's interesting is that there are millions of people who actually do believe this story of the angel and the plates and the book and the Jewish people living in North America 2,000 years ago. Those millions of people are members of the Mormon Church, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah. The person who told this incredible story was a man named Joseph Smith, and he lived in the United States in the early 1800s. He told his story, and recorded what he "translated from the plates", in the Book of Mormon.

If you meet a Mormon and ask them about this story, they can spend hours talking to you about it. They can answer every question you have. Yet the 5.99 billion of us who are not Mormons can see with total clarity that the Mormons are delusional. It is as simple as that. You and I both know with 100% certainty that the Mormon story is no different from the story of Santa. And we are correct in our assessment. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

Another example

Imagine that I tell you this story:

A man was sitting in a cave minding his own business.
A very bright flash of light appeared.
A voice spoke out one word: "Read!" The man felt like he was being squeezed to death. This happened several times.
Then the man asked, "What should I read?"
The voice said, "Read in the name of your Lord who created humans from a clinging [zygote]. Read for your Lord is the most generous. He taught people by the pen what they didn't know before."
The man ran home to his wife.
While running home, he saw the huge face of an angel in the sky. The angel told the man that he was to be the messenger of God. The angel also identified himself as Gabriel.
At home that night, the angel appeared to the man in his dreams.
Gabriel appeared to the man over and over again. Sometimes it was in dreams, sometimes during the day as "revelations in his heart," sometimes preceded by a painful ringing in his ears (and then the verses would flow from Gabriel right out of the man), and sometimes Gabriel would appear in the flesh and speak. Scribes wrote down everything the man said.
Then, one night about 11 years after the first encounter with Gabriel, Gabriel appeared to the man with a magical horse. The man got on the horse, and the horse took him to Jerusalem. Then the winged horse took the man up to the seven layers of heaven. The man was able to actually see heaven and meet and talk with people there. Then Gabriel brought the man back to earth.
The man proved that he had actually been to Jerusalem on the winged horse by accurately answering questions about buildings and landmarks there.
The man continued receiving the revelations from Gabriel for 23 years, and then they stopped. All of the revelations were recorded by the scribes in a book which we still have today.
[Source: "Understanding Islam" by Yahiya Emerick, Alpha press, 2002]
What do you make of this story? If you have never heard the story before, you may find it to be nonsensical in the same way that you feel about the stories of the golden plates and Santa. You would especially feel that way once you read the book that was supposedly transcribed from Gabriel, because much of it is opaque. The dreams, the horse, the angel, the ascension, and the appearances of the angel in the flesh -- you would dismiss them all because it is all imaginary.
But you need to be careful. This story is the foundation of the Muslim religion, practiced by more than a billion people around the world. The man is named Mohammed, and the book is the Koran (also spelled Qur'an or Qur'aan). This is the sacred story of the Koran's creation and the revelation of Allah to mankind.

Despite the fact that a billion Muslims profess some level of belief in this story, people outside the Muslim faith consider the story to be imaginary. No one believes this story because this story is a fairy tale. They consider the Koran to be a book written by a man and nothing more. A winged horse that flew to heaven? That is imaginary -- as imaginary as flying reindeer.

If you are a Christian, please take a moment right now to look back at the Mormon and Muslim stories. Why is it so easy for you to look at these stories and see that they are imaginary fairy tales? How do you know, with complete certainty, that Mormons and Muslims are delusional? You know these things for the same reason you know that Santa is imaginary. There is no evidence for any of it. The stories involve magical things like angels and winged horses, hallucinations, dreams. Horses cannot fly -- we all know that. And even if they could, where would the horse fly to? The vacuum of space? Or is the horse somehow "dematerialized" and then "rematerialized" in heaven? If so, those processes are made up too. Every bit of it is imaginary. We all know that.

An unbiased observer can see how imaginary these three stories are. In addition, Muslims can see that Mormons are delusional, Mormons can see that Muslims are delusional, and Christians can see that both Mormons and Muslims are delusional.

EVOLUTION 10:15--Humans are cousins to every creature on this planet, that means all creatures on earth share a common ancester. This is NOT science fiction, or pseudo science in anyway, this is a proven fact, as true in science as any truth we know :)

LOVE 8:14--What does a stalker do, that the character in the bible does?....They put you on a pedestal, but then once they're rejected, its anger, and rage :)
Debate Round No. 4
daley

Pro

Deviant.genie, the reason I don"t believe in Islam and Mormonism is not because miracles can"t happen, they can and do happen. But the evidence is strongly against these religions being true, while the evidence demonstrates clearly that the resurrection of Jesus is true. So it"s not a matter of me being biased, it"s a matter of going where the evidence points me. You said:

These "eyewitnesses" mean nothing. Joseph Smith had "eyewitnesses".

If witnesses mean nothing, then why is eyewitness testimony so important in court? Let"s compare these witnesses of Joseph Smith to the witnesses of Jesus Christ:

The testimony of the three witnesses, which appear at the front of the Book of Mormon (Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris) declares that "An angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engraving thereon. " Martin Harris denied that he had actually seen the plates with his "naked eyes." In fact, when pressed, he stated, "No, I saw them with a spiritual eye" (Recollections of John H. Gilbert, 1892, Typescript, BYU, 5"6). The Mormon Church admitted that all three of these witnesses later apostatized from the Mormon faith and were described in most unflattering terms ("counterfeiters, thieves, [and] liars") by their Mormon contemporaries (cf. Senate Document 189, February 15, 1841, 6"9)." Joseph Smith wrote prophecies and articles against the character of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. (Doctrine and Covenants, 3:12; 10:7; History of the Church; 3:228, 3:232). The Times and Seasons (2:482) published that Oliver Cowdery denied his Book of Mormon testimony. He spent several years as a baptized Methodist before his rebaptism into Mormonism. Martin Harris denied the teachings of their president Brigham Young after rebaptism and was banned from preaching. David Whitmer changed the details of his testimony concerning the angel with the golden plates to say that it was a vision and not an actual visitation by an angelic person (An Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 32).

So three of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon recanted their testimony, not one of the witnesses to the risen Christ ever recanted their testimony. Jesus was seen alive from the dead by the women at the tomb, the eleven apostles, the apostle Paul, and the 500 brethren, and not a single one of these ever recanted their testimony. Even when people broke under torture, denied Christ and worshiped Caesar, they never denied the resurrection. For these reasons I stand by the eyewitness testimony in the Gospels, and reject those for Mormonism. As for Islam, I"m not aware of any witnesses who ever claimed to see an angel talk to Muhammad or see him on a flying horse, so there"s no reason for me to believe this. Miracles aren"t the problem, the problem is lack of evidence for such miracles; unlike the resurrection which has good evidence " multiple independent witnesses, an empty tomb, etc.

If the resurrection was a lie, the Jews would have produced the corpse and nipped this feared superstition in the bud. All they had to do was go to the tomb and get it. The disciples could not have gotten away with proclaiming the resurrection in Jerusalem - same time, same place, full of eyewitnesses - if it had been a lie. The fact that the disciples were able to proclaim the resurrection in Jerusalem in the face of their enemies a few weeks after the crucifixion shows that what they proclaimed was true, for they could never have proclaimed the resurrection (and been believed) under such circumstances had it not occurred. If there had been a conspiracy, it would certainly have been unearthed by the disciples' adversaries, who had both the interest and the power to expose any fraud.
You mention that archaeology doesn"t find the cities and people mentioned in the book of Mormon, but it does vindicate the Bible:

At Karnak (ancient Thebes), on the Nile River, a vast Egyptian temple contains an inscription on its South wall confirming the campaign of Egyptian King Shishak (Sheshonk I) in Palestine, described at 1"Kings 14:25,"26 and 2"Chronicles 12:1-9. The giant relief depicting his victories shows 156 manacled Palestinian prisoners, each representing a city or village, the name of which is given in hieroglyphics. Among the names identifiable are those of Rabbith (Jos 19:20), Taanach, Beth-shean and Megiddo (where a portion of a stele or inscribed pillar of Shishak has been excavated) (Jos 17:11), Shunem (Jos 19:18), Rehob (Jos 19:28), Hapharaim (Jos 19:19), Gibeon (Jos 18:25), Beth-horon (Jos 21:22), Aijalon (Jos 21:24), Socoh (Jos 15:35), and Arad (Jos 12:14). He even lists the "Field of Abram" as one of his captures, the earliest reference to Abraham in Egyptian records. Also found in this area was a monument of Merneptah, son of Ramses II, containing a hymn in which the only occurrence of the name Israel in ancient Egyptian texts is to be found. So the Bible is in pretty trustworthy form from an archaeological standpoint, one reason why I trust it, one of many.

According to the historians there were no Hittites at the time of Abraham, thus the historicity of the Biblical accounts describing them was questionable. Now we know from inscriptions of that period that there were 1,200 years of Hittite civilization, much of it corresponding with the Patriarchal period. Historians also told us that no such people as the Horites existed. It is these people whom we find mentioned in the genealogy of Esau in Genesis 36:20. Yet now they have been discovered as a group of warriors also living in Mesopotamia during the Patriarchal period. To compare this to the Book of Mormon is compare apples and oranges. When I check the evidence, the Bible is well supported as historical documents, the Book of Mormon isn"t, neither the Quar"an.

Armana tablets: (from Egypt) mention the Habiru or Apiru in Hebrew, which was first applied to Abraham in Genesis 14:13.

Ebla tablets: 17,000 tablets from Tell Mardikh (Northern Syria), dating from 2300 B.C., lists the five cities of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim and Zoar in the exact sequence which we find in Genesis 14:8! Until these tablets were uncovered the existence of Sodom and Gomorrah had always been in doubt by historians.

Mari tablets: (from the Euphrates) mentions king Arriyuk, or Arioch of Genesis 14, and lists the towns of Nahor and Harran (from Genesis 24:10), as well as the names Benjamin and Habiru.

Nuzi tablets: (from Iraq) speaks about a number of customs which we find in the Pentateuch, such as:
a) a barren wife giving a handmaiden to her husband (i.e. Hagar)
b) a bride chosen for the son by the father (i.e. Rebekah)
c) a dowry paid to the father-in-law (i.e. Jacob)
d) work done to pay a dowry (i.e. Jacob)
e) the unchanging oral will of a father (i.e. Isaac)
f) a father giving his daughter a slave-girl (i.e. Leah, Rachel)
g) the sentence of death for stealing a cult gods (i.e. Jacob).

Archaeology has served to confirm many historical features of the Biblical account and to substantiate points once held in question by modern critics. Skepticism as regards the Tower of Babel, denials of the existence of a Babylonian king named Belshazzar and of an Assyrian king named Sargon (whose names, up until the nineteenth century"C.E., were not found in sources independent of the Bible record), and other adverse criticisms as to Bible data relating to these lands have all been demonstrated to be without foundation. Contrariwise, a wealth of evidence has been unearthed that harmonizes fully with the Scriptural account.
devient.genie

Con

RIDDLES 7:12--Are the people involved in the crucification of jesus, murderers or heroes? If they dont do it , he cant die for our sins :)

Questions 3:28--Nature is littered with flaws. If the designer is so intelligent, of all the different forms of life, that have ever been on this planet, why are 98.9% now extinct? :)

Questions 3:9-- What kind of refelction of gods love is down syndrome, or autism, siamese twins, cleft palates, Tay-Sachs disease, spinal bifida and the list of birth defects, how are those indications of an intelligent designer who is all knowing, loving and powerful? :)

STALKER 1:7--Out of the billions of galaxies out there, all his focus in on earth, and you, on a very personal, individual level of understanding, belief, and communication, and a lack of belief, or mis-understanding OR under appreciation or devoutness of his love, that could result in punishment, right? :)

DRAMA 55:12--The book of Revelation, do any of those events sound pretty outlandish? You 100% believe the Two hundred million lion-headed cavalry, the whore of babylon and the scorpion tailed locusts, as whole heartidly as you also 100% believe we are smarter than maggots and fruit flies? You prefer to pick and choose scripture to make things sound plausible? Are you 100% sure that these writers were sober? Are you 100% convinced the bible is the true word of god? There is a difference between interpreting and ignoring, youre not fooling anyone :)

DevientGenie 5:13--The Genies powerful heterosexual confidence doesnt have trivial insecurities, if anyone is concerned with two boys kissing or two girls kissing, put that concerned energy into something positive, homosexuality helps control overpopulation :)

Ideas 7:28--The attitude of gratitude and reminding yourself of the things that you are grateful for each day, will improve your overall health and well being, and stimulate your intuition, intellect and instinct to want more :)

THEORY 1:1--A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment." Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and do not make apodictic propositions; instead, they aim for predictive and explanatory force. The strength of a scientific theory is related to the diversity of phenomena it can explain, which is measured by its ability to make falsifiable predictions with respect to those phenomena. Theories are improved as more evidence is gathered, so that accuracy in prediction improves over time. Scientists use theories as a foundation to gain further scientific knowledge, as well as to accomplish goals such as inventing technology or curing disease. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge. This is significantly different from the word "theory" in common usage, which implies that something is unproven or speculative :)

EVENTS 4:12--Ingersoll Day is an annual celebration on or around August 11th, the birthday of Robert Green Ingersoll, to celebrate the life and works of one of the most popular freethinkers in US history. Heard by more Americans than any human being before the advent of motion pictures and radio, Robert Ingersoll was the most successful orator in nineteenth century America. A leading political figure, he campaigned against slavery and for the rights of women and minorities. Known as the "Great Agnostic," he attracted huge crowds to lectures that criticized religion and promoted freethought. :)

DevientGenie 4:44--Commercial use of fairy tales may pay, however, no fairy tale pays like religious tale :)

GoodGuys 4:8--The book of Numbers is jam packed with knowledge on love. Example: Numbers 31:14-18...14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army "the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds"who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

LOVE 36:18--Evidence of all loving is in the book of Numbers 15:32-36.....32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses :)

PUKE 23:23--In the book of Luke we see examples of patient love..Luke49-53 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law." :)

Love 7:2--When youre all loving, you say this: 1 samuel 15:3--Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys :)

DUH 6:28--And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son--2 KINGS 6:28-29 :)

Misogyny 6:3--"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." (1 Timothy 2:12)

Disgusting 7:2--"Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us " he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." (Psalm 137:9)

Sweethearts 5:3--So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, "Get up; let"s go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home." (Judges 19:25-28)

Homophobes 8:9--In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error." (Romans 1:27)

DeathGames 4:4--Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you." (Genesis 22:2)

Racism 1:2--"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel." (1 Peter 2:18)
Debate Round No. 5
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by devient.genie 4 years ago
devient.genie
daley, you make about as much sense as a half penny makes cents :)

Heres the deal bright guy, just because people were idiots, doesnt mean we have to stay that way.

However, religious people like to stay that way, and think, nothing evolves or changes.

Our conciousness is what seperates us from other life, our clinging to outdated ideals, inhibits the evolution of our most unique characteristic :)

THOUGHTS 4:1--Imagine a puzzle. A puzzle that is dumped out of its box and the box nowhere in sight. Without any knowledge of what the final picture will look like, at some point, you can detect its going to be a train, or a race car, or wildlife, or whatever it is, with less than all of the pieces put together. Just like we can put the puzzle together in life and evolution. We may not have all the pieces, but we definitley have enough to understand Darwinian Natural Selection and know what evolution is, that is how much of the puzzle we have solved in 2012 :)

DUH 11:7--Natural Selection explains complexity in pure simplicity and it does so with such elegance, that the question of a god is of no concern because it is proven that these process can happen without the need for an intelligent designer. I guarantee if everybody really knew the truths that science can prove, you would have to either swallow your pride and admit there is no boogey man, or keep on faking the funk with your holy binky :)

WAKEUP 2:2--Cornell University is a very respectable institution. The American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the National Academy of Sciences, and dozens of other scientific organizations, ALL AGREE with this, A Very brief guide for the curious and confused...

http://www.nbb.cornell.edu... :)

Ideas 6:5--Here's an idea. Grow up and leave the outdated bronze aged beliefs written in the holy binky where they belong, with the leprechauns at the end of a rainbow :)
Posted by devient.genie 4 years ago
devient.genie
errya, there's no crying in baseball. You know that. Walk It Off :)

Now back to big kids stuff :)

Evidence that our conciousness needs to evolve, is clear because a far to large majority have their conciousness tied to relifious doctrine littered with poison and wickedness :)

GROW UP 3:12--Everybody is an atheist towards some "gods". Those in mythology for example. What about Horus, mithra, etc. The Genie and every other thinking person, just went one step further and says NO to the sexist with an anger problem :)

GoodAbuse 2:7--All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God"s name and our teaching may not be slandered. Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare of their slaves--1 Timothy 6:1-2 :)

ToughGuys 5:23--When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies--Deuteronomy 20:10-14 :)

Vile 6:9--Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well--Exodus 11:5

Awwwww....What a sweetheart that lord is :)
Posted by errya 4 years ago
errya
devient.genie-I dont THINK religious people are fooling I KNOW IT!

If this is what you think, show some evidence
Posted by daley 4 years ago
daley
those same scientists also believed the earth was flat, and aristotle was their leader.
Posted by devient.genie 4 years ago
devient.genie
I dont THINK religious people are fooling I KNOW IT!

Either science is the devi or a conspiracy, and all serious scientists are involved, or evolution by natural selection is true.

There is no gray area here. Denying the theory of evolution is like denying the theory of gravity or the moon landing :)

I feel like Michael J Fox in back to the future with some secret info, when in reality there is no secret.

GROWUP 4:4--We need to evolve conciously. Conciousness is the ground of all being. This is NOT psychic talk or imaginary pseudo science. The world is facing many problems. Our societies problems are rooted in religion. Religion is a problem. When it comes to the problems of religion and the world, Albert Einstein says it best, No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it :)
Posted by daley 4 years ago
daley
apologies for forfeiting the last round, my computer isn't working so i have to use someone else's. don't always get the time.
Posted by errya 4 years ago
errya
devient.genie, You think religous people are deceiving themselves, maybe you should actually think about what you're writing.
Posted by devient.genie 4 years ago
devient.genie
We're not going to get ot complete this debate if you keep using godspeed to respond. I will be gone for the Holiday weekend on Wednesday with no internet access :)

SlowPokes 4:31--godspeed is the slowest speed we know. Lets hope nobody ever drags their feet like a god :)
Posted by devient.genie 4 years ago
devient.genie
callmekoba, are you sitting down or standing up?

Who cares, lets get back to big kids stuff :)

Brainiacs 11:4--Hey religious kids, did you realize that singling out and calling the morons (second 'm' left out for flavor), jehovahs witness, islam, shamans, or any other belief, calling them ridiculous or a cult while youre embracing another religion, is like someone calling charles manson despicable while writing love letters to jerry sandusky :)
Posted by devient.genie 4 years ago
devient.genie
"Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things -- that takes religion."
-- Steven Weinberg

How is that possible?

Otherwise good people, for example, pull the "yes" lever on ballot measures aimed at denying certain folks the same rights they (otherwise good people) freely enjoy because their religion instructs them to do so in the name of god.

Hence, religion making otherwise good people do bad things :)

Brainiacs 6:1--The interpretations of the holy binky are everywhere. It comes down to, Good verses, "Look, it says right there in the bible he loves us", bad violent verses, "he didnt mean it that way", "you just dont understand him like I do" :)

DUH 8:38--Nothing like our good ol' pal genesis, the guy that got the book kicked off, is at his old tricks again, awwww shucks-eee darn......genesis 38:8 Then Judah said to Onan, 'Go in to your brother's wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.' 9 But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to see his brother's wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. 10 What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also"....created gravity and all the stars and galazxies and is concerned with male ejaculate....the word of God? Really? All of it? Just the parts that are nice? Just the parts that youre taught?:)

WAKEUP 5:7--There are those who should not be allowed to think for us until they practice more at it, examples are those who have deep ridiculous religious beliefs. A man armed with logic and reason leads a better country than a man armed with the supernatural :)

Ideas 4:3--Museums are a great weekend activity to truly bless your children with the truth instead of consistent poisoning of the pansy written in the holy binky that throws temper tantrums :)
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Greematthew 3 years ago
Greematthew
daleydevient.genieTied
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Total points awarded:60 
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Vote Placed by Smithereens 3 years ago
Smithereens
daleydevient.genieTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con was so rubbish it wasn't even funny.
Vote Placed by Muted 4 years ago
Muted
daleydevient.genieTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Votebomb ALL THE WAY!!!! (For an actual RFD, please note that I have the same reasons as Torvald, good reasons, they are)
Vote Placed by Torvald 4 years ago
Torvald
daleydevient.genieTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Con littered the debate with illiterate, insulting bogus references (of his own invention, in an attempt to create parody of the opposition), while not really making an argument, just spewing the usual nonsense. As is also tradition, Con tried to diffuse the tension created by his outrageous insults by ending his arguments with smiling emoticons. Every point, I can honestly say, is fairly deserved by Pro, even though he did forfeit. Con as good as forfeited with his illiterate hate content.