The Instigator
holla1755
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Lilieze
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

God Is the Universe

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/15/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 446 times Debate No: 103212
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

holla1755

Pro

The universe and God are the same. Both are extremely powerful. Both encompass everything.
Lilieze

Con

I accept the debate. However, 1k characters is very, VERY limiting...

I will debate against god being the universe. Whether the sentence is metaphor or not, the burden of prrof is upon your shoulders; as you haven't proved the existence of god.

Assuming that god does exist, I'd like to say that your sentence doesn't make sense.
The universe is merely a creation of god following the christian, jewish, and islamic scriptures. Being a creation, the universe cannot be 'powerful', unless you take into account the laws of physics which rule the universe itself, but are part of it at the same time.
Debate Round No. 1
holla1755

Pro

The universe is everything. That is a property, or even the definition, of the universe. (See Wikipedia contributors. "Universe." Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, 1 Jul. 2017. Web. 16 Jul. 2017.) If God exists, then the universe includes God. If God has always existed, then the universe has always included God.

Conversely, God is always omnipresent. That is a property, or even the definition, of God. (See Wikipedia contributors. "God." Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, 22 Jun. 2017. Web. 16 Jul. 2017.) If a thing exists, God is present there and includes the thing. So, God is everything.

So, both the universe and God are everything. There can be only one such thing that is everything. Therefore, the universe and God are the same one thing.

My claim that "God is the universe" is a literal claim, not a metaphorical one.

God couldn't have existed before the universe, as God must, by a property of the universe, be in the universe.
Lilieze

Con

Logical fallacy: cherry picking. Let us PROPERLY define the universe: The Universe is all of space and time (spacetime) and its contents; from a physical point of view. It's the congregation of the fabric of space in which matter and particles and energy all alike reside; along the flow of time... so it's not EVERYTHING. It is everything that exists WITHIN spacetime.

God cannot be part of the universe, let alone BE the universe. As the universe refers to a notion; and notions are inherently powerless by themselves. For something to be part of the universe, it has to be subject to the relativistic flow of time, and it has to abide by the laws of physics and logic. God DOESN'T due to his omnipotency abide by any rules whatsoever. First and foremost, the existence of God itself breaks many laws including laws of thermodynamics.

To conclude, you are saying that god couldn't have existed before the universe, as god must be part of the universe. That's false, since it's based on a false premise.
Debate Round No. 2
holla1755

Pro

When I said "The universe is everything," I suppose my domain of discourse for "everything" was everything that existed, exists, or will exist, or as you say, everything that exists within spacetime.

You claim the universe refers to a notion. We just described what the universe is. And it is not merely a notion.

I suppose I agree that "[f]or something to be part of the universe, it has to be subject to the relativistic flow of time, and it has to abide by the laws of physics and logic." However, God is omnipotent does not imply he does not abide by any rules whatsoever. He may be omnipotent in the sense that he can do anything, where the domain of discourse for "anything" is anything that is logically possible. It seems not even God can have a square that is a circle. That doesn't even make sense.

Material implication suggests everything in the universe causes everything in the universe. The only complete reason for anything is the universe. It would make sense for this to be God.
Lilieze

Con

First off, you are bringing up the "The omnipotence paradox", which is a family of paradoxes that arise with some understandings of the term 'omnipotent'. We have to draw a line and properly define what "omnipotent" means.

God is described as a being that can do everything and anything. "God sayeth be, and it is". He only has to think about something for it to exist, in other words he can create matter, space and time out of his own will.

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." He created forms of energy.

We can safely conclude that the christian god has enough power to break laws of thermodynamics, as well as bending human logic to form logical absurdities:

"And God saw the light, and it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness." The very notion of contrast, good and evil, light and darkness, which are all notions assumed to be ultimate, have been constructed by god.

You say that everything in the universe causes everything in the universe, but that is false.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by backwardseden 1 year ago
backwardseden
wikipedia "In monotheism, God is conceived of as the Supreme Being and principal object of faith." con is right. The burden of proof is upon pro to prove your god after all no one else has nor can, no one.
"Why would you believe anything on faith? Faith isn"t a pathway to truth. Every religion has some sort of faith. If faith is your pathway you can"t distinguish between christianity, Hinduism, judaism, any of these others. How is it that you use ---reason--- in every of the other endeavor in your life and then when it comes to the ultimate truth, the most important truth your"re saying that faith is required and how is that supposed to reflect on a god? What kind of a god requires faith instead of evidence?" "Faith is the reason people give when they don"t have evidence." Matt Dillahunty

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror. - Richard Dawkins

"Now I am absolutely convinced that the main source of hatred in the world is religion and organized religion. Absolutely convinced of it. And I think it, religion, should be treated with ridicule, hatred and contempt. And I claim that right." Christopher Hitchens

"If you try to get clarification, if you try to get what the christian orthodox view is on the law, you're not going to find consensus. You"re not going to find christians "oh here"s what christians think about" they"re all going to have this concept of this different thing now. But as far as it applies and why and what to do with it, they"re all different. Its going to be a hard argument because most have different ideas about it." Tracie Harris
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