God Loves You All
God loves you all. God loves my opponent and God loves every person who gives reasons they think are logical as they try to prove God does not love them or anybody else. If you keep insisting God does not love you, you will forever prove that you can't feel His love in the fire of Hell. God is not going to put up with nonsense forever, and He is not going to allow bad attitudes to fly around freely stinking up His creation. Don't be a fool. Don't let your death be finalized as a sinner. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
Definition of love: a feeling of strong or constant affection for a person
In order to disprove that god loves us, I will use pro's own argument to disprove god's love.
" If you keep insisting God does not love you, you will forever prove that you can't feel His love in the fire of Hell."
Based on the definition of love, all god has to do to love someone and give them constant affection. The other person does not have to love you back, in order for god to love you. Based on Pro's argument, god will send you to hell, if you do not love him. That means, god does not love you, if you don't love him. (Because god will send you to hell if you don't love him). Therefor, god does not love us all.
Lets talk about god's creation shall we?
If god did love us, the sun (which is our main natural light source), wouldn't give us skin cancer, or blindness if we looked at he's wonderful creation too long.
If god did love us, he would show compassion and affection to the dying kids, or babies with birth defect. God, doesn't show any compassion to the hungry, for he lets them be.
If god did love us, we could go out into space, without having to worry about us dying from lack of oxygen, or freezing to death.
If god did love us, he wouldn't punish the people who question the existence of him. He would understand why people don't believe in him, because he never showed himself in physical form. He would understand why some people would believe in scientific theories, because he would understand people why people chose to believe in evidences for theories. (evidence for evolution-fossils and similarities between related living organisms. Evidence for big bang-Inflation, cosmic radiation, dark energy).
If god did love us, he would let us explore the world, without having us to fear about the dangers of natural disasters.
That sums up my argument for round 1.
God loves you all. It seems my opponent wants to imply that since love is constant affection, God cannot love people if he lets them remain in Hell forever. God is love, and He does not change from being love simply because a person insists on denying that He loves them. If you are fighting against God, you are going to lose. To you, He will always seem to be your enemy, not giving you the things you want and not doing the things you think He should do for or around you or in your world when you want them done and the way you want them done. Because He forces you to die and leaves you in a world full of suffering and evil until your time is over, and because you are against Him, in your heart and mind you make Him out to be unloving, uncaring, and unkind. Your attitude to Him is garbage, and all of His creatures with attitudes like yours will be cast away from Him like garbage. Once the garbage is thrown out, it's not coming back. It's going to the landfill to rot where it will remain.
I am not disagreeing with my opponents shallow definition of love as being constant affection. To my opponent: There is no reason to believe God's affection toward people who are cast away into the garbage pit of Hell is any different for them while He is giving them comforts in the world as He calls to them trying to bring them into agreement with Him so they can know His love and His mercy to be saved from Hell.
The example of God's affection being expressed to a person burning in Hell is found in the story Jesus told of the beggar, Lazarus, and the rich man in John Chapter 5......18 Lazarus died and was carried into Abraham's bosom, 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
In this story we can see God's affection expressed through Abraham to the man in torments of Hell in many ways. First, Abraham called the man "Son", then he kindly explained the situation, reminding the man of the comforts he had in his lifetime. Abraham also explained the problem of the great gulf which could not be crossed. Abraham was truthful in the answers and explanations, and always kind toward the man. If God had no affection for the man burning in Hell, He would not allow Abraham to answer the man at all. God is love and if a person refuses to know God is love, that will never change God. God cannot save you from Hell if you won't admit that you deserve to die and be cast away there, and seek His mercy, before your death is finalized. God loves you now. Even if you do not love Him back, His affection toward you is constant. If you end up cast away in Hell, you will not love God and there is no possibility that you will change in your attitude while you are being tormented in Hell. God loves you if you love Him back or not. He loves you so much that He took your first death to save you from the second death. He is eternal, the death He suffered was an infinite payment for your sins. You sins in finite time cost Him an infinite death since He had no sin of His own to die for and He is infinite. It is a fair exchange for you to burn in Hell infinitely if you don't care that He died in your place as the Infinite Creator who became finite in death for you. God loves you and His heart goes out to you and He showed it by dying for you in the form of a man, He took all of your punishment. If you don't care, then you will suffer all of your punishment and God will still love you, though He won't be calling to you to be saved anymore. You have broken His heart more than you should have been allowed to already. He won't wait for you to believe He loves you forever. The choice is yours.
The above passages do answer your objections about the problems of physical limitations and disease, but I will elaborate for you since you seem to be having difficultly understanding. If you can't understand that God loves you, how can you understand that the suffering in this world is nothing He takes pleasure in? For God to allow you to come into existence, He had to allow suffering in the world. Rather than execute Adam and Eve immediately as they deserved to be executed, He took the death of an animal in their place and covered them with the skin. The life's blood of that animal was a "finite" payment for Adam and Eve's sin, allowing them a "finite" time to serve God on the Earth where He placed them. His plan was to populate the earth with people like Himself because he loves all people. The problem is that people have turned against Him and act like devils. Now death is in the world, and it works by disease and actions of evil such as hatred and murder. God suffers along with mankind, loving us, giving us time, and promising to fix everything in the future. God will not suffer with mankind forever, He will not allow suffering to go on forever. He loves us and it breaks His heart to see somebody go into eternity as His enemy and He has to leave them to burn in Hell....after He died for them and they didn't care......how uncaring can you be when somebody loves you so much that they died for you even when you were fighting against them and saying bad things about them? If you end up burning in Hell, it's your own fault for not believing God loves you and rejecting Jesus Christ as your Saviour. If you end up burning in Hell, you will forever believe God does not love you and you will be wrong forever. Sorry if that's how it turns out for you.
PS.....Do you really need to use NASA as a source to support your argument that if you fly around in space, you die because of lack of oxygen? I have to agree with your source supports for such arguments. I think it's silly to reference sources to support obvious facts, but in support of your facts which I am not disagreeing with, I will use the same sources and recommend that people look there is they want to waste time with things that really are irrelevant to this debate.
And please, you might want to find a source for defining love since your definition if far to abbreviated to explain a concept that is as big or bigger than life.
Over to you, Con. Let me know which areas you are having difficulty understanding, and I will try to reword things or explain it in different ways. God loves you, God loves me. God loves you all. God is love. Life means God is good.
God is good all the time. God never changes. He is love. Will you ever stop breaking His heart? Will He have to leave you cast away in Hell?
"He will always seem to be your enemy."
You see, assuming god is real, I am giving my concerns on how he is not all loving. I am not trying to prove how god is my enemy. My personal thoughts, that YOU are assuming have nothing to do with this debate.
"Because He forces you to die and leaves you in a world full of suffering and evil until your time is over, and because you are against Him,"
Let me give you an example, to try to illustrate the situation.
Tom loves clara. But, Clara doesn't love Tom back, and sometimes Clara tells Tom "please stop bothering me. I don't think you are a good person". Therefor, Tom thinks it is perfectly logical to kill Clara, and torture Clara for eternity.
This situation may seem informal, but I try to get my point across. Tom does not love Clara. Just because Clara doesn't love Tom back, doesn't mean Tom still doesn't love Clara. Tom may give constant affection even if Clara doesn't do the same. Now, that means Tom is NOT all loving, if he kills Clara and tortures her for eternity. He does not show constant affection, but rather he shows constant hate for eternity.
"I am not disagreeing with my opponents shallow definition of love as being constant affection."
All I have to attempt to disprove god's love, is go by the definition of love itself. Human emotions does not affect the definition of love in anyway.
As I said before, torturing a person for eternity, just because they didn't believe in you for 100 years, doesn't show constant affection. According to your argument, if you have bad attitude for 100 years, it means god is showing love for torturing you for 100000000000000000""..+ years. (Eternity cannot be described in a numerical number). Based on the definition of love, god does not fall into that category.
""Do you really need to use NASA as a source to support your argument that if you fly around in space, you die because of lack of oxygen?"
Actually con, I was giving my sources for evidence of evolution, big bang, and exposure to human body in space. Evidences that go against the idea of god in some degree, and you get sent to hell for believing in them, and not god. Feel free to click on them to learn more.
"And please, you might want to find a source for defining love since your definition if far to abbreviated to explain a concept that is as big or bigger than life."
Actually con, If you look over my argument, I did give you a source.
Round 1: "Definition of love: a feeling of strong or constant affection for a person
I would like to add, I assume that you believe that god created us? Please correct me if I am wrong. Well then god "created" me as an atheist in a secular family. He created me like that, and he hates me for that? Also, a god who understands every decision you make, wouldn't he understand your choice of being atheist or disbelieving? Does god have so selfish, that even if he understands WHY you took that path, he would still cast you to hell without an argument? That really goes against the definition of love.
Back to you pro.
God's love is real. He is not the one who needs justification, you are the one who needs justification. By saying He is not at all loving, you are being His enemy, no matter how nice you appear to be, no matter how nice and good you act. You are acting like His enemy by talkng against Him and trying to encourage others to take the same stand agaisnt Him that you are taking. God is your enemy because you make yourself to be His enemy. You cannot see that He loves you because you are agaisnt Him.
I am assuming nothing about you. I am only observing and commenting on your own words. By your own words, you hate God. You show your hatred for Him in the way you talk about Him. He loves you and hopes you will change your mind and see that you need to be saved from death before you finalize your death in your attitude against Him and leave yourself no place to know His love and forever you go on saying He is not at all loving while He remains as He is, Love, and you remain as you are agaisnt Him in the fire of Hell.
Tom and Clara are not illustrations of God's love. Tom and Clara are people who have sinned agaisnt God and deserve to die. God loves them and does not want them to be lost to death. He does not want them to pay for their sin in Hell. He died in their place as Jesus Christ to pay their debt to God so they can be forgiven and not have to pay themselves in Hell.
There is no greater love than God's love, who died for His enemies trying to save them from Hell. If you won't let God save you, He won't save you. He will let you have what you say is coming to you.....death.
Love is love. If you say God does not love you, that is all you will know. If you have no affection for God whatsoever, that does not change the fact that God loves you. He is loving you now. You are turning your back on Him. He loves you so much He iwll let you turn your back on Him if you want to, and obviously you want to. It won't do you any good. Saying God does not love you will not make Him unloving. You need to come up with better illustrations. Somehow I think all of your illustrations will only end in somebody getting killed. You are the one who is being killed, and it's not Tom or Clara killing you. What is killing you is the evil in your own heart, and God loves you and is trying to save you from it before you leave Him no choice but to let you have the finality of what you are in, defiance against God, death, eternal death in Hell. What more could God do for you than to die in your place? What more could he do than to take yoru punsihment so that His justice is satisfied on your behalf so you can be pardoned from eternal death in Hell and live with Him forever in Heaven? If you won't believe God loves you, you will never know He loves you. Your ignorance will not change God. He is love. He loves you.
The sources you gave have nothing to do with the fact that God loves you. I will again quote those sources to show that while they are the most excellent and reputable souces in the universe, they do not disprove the fact that God loves you.
Those sources are irrelevant to this debate.
God did not create you as an atheist any more than He created you as a thief or a drunk or a fornicator or a liar or a murderer like your Tom and Clara story. You were created in the image of God, but you are choosing to remain in the image of a devil talking against God and trying to blame Him for your faults. Who said God hates you? Only you are saying that. God loves you. He hates your sin. He can and will save you from your sin if you will trust him. If you don't care to believe that He loves you, your sin will take you into the fire of Hell and you will never again have the chance to believe God loves you.
You are taking the wrong path. You can't blame God for your choice. You have no good excuse for taking your own path to death. God loves you and He is trying to stop you from destroying yourself. He does not want to lose you to Hell. He will let you destroy yourself if you insist on it, but He takes no pleasure in your death. He loves you. He will always love you. You can know His love now. You will not know His love if you finalize in death your choice of rejecting His love. Sorry. Your definition of love is inadequate.
Saying that god is real, and providing no real justification for he's love, besides the fact that he all send you to hell or heaven based on your belief, is not enough.
"you are being His enemy, no matter how nice you appear to be, no matter how nice and good you act."
Definition of enemy: someone who hates another : someone who attacks or tries to harm another
I am not trying to be he's enemy. An enemy is someone who tries attacks or harms another. Based on your argument, that is exactly what god is trying to do to ME, by sending me to hell. I am simply trying to disprove god's live. I am not trying to be he's enemy.
"I am assuming nothing about you. I am only observing and commenting on your own words. By your own words, you hate God. You show your hatred for Him in the way you talk about Him"
Can you please quote me in any of my arguments, when I showed hatred towards god? I am disproving he's love, and I'm not trying to hate him. You most certainly are making assumptions on MY thoughts, of which you no nothing about.
Definition of hate: intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury
I am not showing any intense hostility or aversion from fear, anger or sense of injury. I am simply disproving god's love. I hope I have made it clear, without any misunderstandings.
"Love is love. If you say God does not love you, that is all you will know."
Honestly, I would highly appreciate you assuming about me, and my thoughts. Based on the definition of love that I got from the online Merriam dictionary, of which I have provided my source.I fail to see how god loves me if he choses to send me to hell, simply because I disbelieve in him.
"Your ignorance will not change God. He is love. He loves you."
Hey! Don't call me ignorant! I am just trying to oppose a topic on a debate.
"God did not create you as an atheist any more than He created you as a thief or a drunk or a fornicator or a liar or a murderer like your Tom and Clara story"
Actually he "created" me in a secular family. My surroundings that he has "created" me in have changed my thoughts. Such as theories in science, made me lose any faith in god. This is my personal story, which is completely irrelevant in this debate, so I won't go on.
Apologies if my Tom and Clara story didn't make sense. I was using that as an analogy where Tom was god, and Clara was mankind. I was just trying to symbolize god's "love".
"your definition of love is inadequate."
It's not my definition. It's the definition from a dictionary, which I have provided my source. It is the meaning of the English word. We debate using the definition of the word, rather than human emotions affecting the word.
God loves you because He is love. His love for you needs no justification. He loves you because He created you in His likeness. If you want to fight against Him and say He is not there, or He does not care, or He hates you, He loves you so much He still died to pay for the things you did that were wrong; and you have done plenty wrong the same as everybody else. We all deserve to die and burn in Hell for our wrongs. We have all turned against God by doing wrong. He loves us all. He loves you all. He wants you to know His mercy and His love. He does not want to punish you or you would be burning in Hell now. It is your sin that takes you to Hell, it is His mercy that for now prevents you from being lost there forever.
God loves you so much that He became a man and died in your place even though you say He is not there or He does not care. When you talk against Him, you are being His enemy; encouraging others to talk against Him and bringing condemnation of your antagonism against God on yourself and others who you encourage by your bold words against God. When He came down from heaven as the Son of God, it was people just like you who He came to save. It was people just like you who turned their backs on Him when He was innocent. You are one of the enemies He died for. He died to pay for your wrongs so He can forgive you if you believe on His bodily resurrection from the dead and receive Him as your Saviour. He cannot be any more real to you, He cannot do any more to prove His love for you. God loves you all.
God will let you be His enemy and talk against Him if you want to, but He will not allow you to live with Him forever. Your life will end in death in your attitude against Him. He loves you and offers you forgiveness, full pardon, eternal life. By hating Him (and saying He is not there or He does not care or He hates you is just about as hateful toward Him as you can be), you are rejecting His offer and refusing His love and choosing your own death after He died in your place. His love for you does not need to be justified, He is love and He loves you. His anger against you for rejecting His love is justified in that you think it is nothing that He died in your place so that you could be forgiven.
You do not have to believe God loves you. As long as you say He is not there, or He does not care, or He hates you, you will never know His love and that's your fault, not His.
God loves you. You do not have to believe it. I believe it because I know He loves me and I am no better than anybody else. As far as I know, since I know all of my secrets, I am the worst person on the planet. God loves me and I know He loves you.
Everybody knows the definition of "enemy" and "hate". Well I thought they did anyways. Apparently you think they need help on that. I think everybody here knows the meaning of "love", "enemy", and "hate", so I will not use a dictionary source to support my use of those words.
Hatred can be masked and hidden. It is first an attitude of the heart before it displays itself in emotional response or outbursts of action or violence. Your speeches against God's love are hateful toward Him. You are trying to blame Him for your choices. You choose to believe He does not love you. Saying He is not there, He is not love, He hates you, or He does not care about you, is hateful toward Him. What you are doing by talking that way is trying to murder Him. You are trying to make Him not be there. You are trying to make him appear to be bad when He loves you. God chose to die in your place to save you from Hell. You are choosing to go there by setting yourself against him He is being kind to you in allowing you any time at all when you talk so bad about Him. He loves you. You are leaving Him no choice but to reject you because you are rejecting Him. If you finalize your death in such an attitude, then you are choosing to die as His enemy. That is your choice. Your choice takes you to Hell. Your sin is on you. He loved you so much He took your sin on Himself and died for you to pay for your sin. He rose from the dead so you can be forgiven. Your attitude toward Him is murderous. he took it, He died for you. Your sin killed Him. Now He is risen from the dead and offers you forgiveness. He still loves you and wants you to believe on Him and be forgiven and saved from Hell.
I'm telling you these things man to man. I may sound harsh. God's voice is between the lines. He is saying He loves you. You need to hear it from Him. You won't hear it from him if you keep saying He is not there, or He does not love you, or He hates you, or He does not care. God says to you: I love you, I care, I took your death, I paid for your sin so you can be forgiven and have eternal life. You owe me an apology. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. You don't have to keep your sin on yourself, I took it for you. I will give you eternal life. I want you to go to heaven. I love you."
Your Tom and Clara story made no sense because Tom is only a person like you and you were trying to make Tom into somebody who acts and talks like a devil. You can't compare Tom to God. Tom and Clara are both sinners like you.
I'm not calling you ignorant, you are being ignorant. Your ignorance of God's love for you will not change the fact that He loves you. The Bible does refer to your attitude as "willful ignorance". You are not ignorant, you are acting ignorantly in saying God does not love you. He loves you. Why in the world would you or anybody else want to believe God does not love you? God loves you all. He really does. Why not believe it? I believe it because I know it's true. God loves me and God loves you.
Your personal story is not irrelevant. God loves you personally. He brought your parents into the world so He could bring you into the world. He knew the number of hairs on your head before you had any. He knows the problems, blessings, and challenges of what you went through. He went through all the same things you went through. He did it for you because He loves you. He went through death for you. He wants you to trust Him. He is trying to get you to listen to Him and believe He loves you. Are you listening? If you say you can't hear His loving call, it's not true. The truth is that you are denying His loving call to you. God loves you. This is what God is saying to you: God is saying "I love you". To say you have no proof that He loves you only proves you are rejecting His love.
Are we debating using the definition of love and not the human emotions affecting the word? Are you emotions obscuring God's love? Is love all that hard to define? God loves you.
And please, forget about the Tom and Clara analogy. You were not using that story to try to symbolize God's love. You were using that story in a hateful way against God trying to blame God for Clara's problems. Thank God that Tom is not God. Tom does not love you. God does.
Don't blame God or you surroundings for your decisions. Take the responsibility for your decisions. If you decide to believe God does not love you, don't blame anybody other than yourself for that decision. I don't know why you want to believe God does not love you. I don't know exactly what you went through or what your family was like or what happened to you. God does. God loves you. Believe it. You can know it. You can't know it if you wont' believe it. If you believe you can't know it, you won't know it. God loves you for the umpteenth time. I guess you need to hear God loves you one million times to make up for the two or three hundred thousand times you have heard people say He is not there or He does not care. Maybe hearing it one million times won't be enough for you to believe it. Maybe you will never believe it. That is your choice. You are not a robot programmed by your culture. God is there and He does care. He loves you. God loves you all.
" We all deserve to die and burn in Hell for our wrongs."
I have repeated the definition of love numerous times throughout the debate. Us, being made imperfect and having the willpower to chose a faith, means that we deserve to burn in hell. God made us so we can chose. Now, god wants us to burn in hell because he made us like that. Creating a breathing living creature, and saying that it deserves to burn in hell because its surroundings (of which he has little control over), deserves to burn in hell shows no constant affection whatsoever. If god didn't want Atheists to burn in hell, and if he really did love us, he would have the power to give enough evidence to change each Atheist's minds in a snap. That has not been done so, and assuming god is real, he does not love us enough to save us from hell. He has not shown every person he's physical form, and he should have done something impossible on a daily basis, just so we can change our minds.
"God loves you so much that He became a man and died in your place even though you say He is not there or He does not care."
My opponent has not given any evidence that Jesus died specifically for our sins. Historically, Jesus died for calling himself the "King of Jews". The "Jews" were responsible for the death of Jesus. (Many apologies if this seemed disrespectful to any our viewers). If my opponent choses deny this claim, I will gladly provide two pieces of evidence. If, I cannot convince my opponent that Jesus died because he was called "King of Jews", I would like to point out that, that it is not showing enough "love" from god. One death is not the same as an eternity in hell.
"Hatred can be masked and hidden. It is first an attitude of the heart before it displays itself in emotional response or outbursts of action or violence. Your speeches against God's love are hateful toward Him."
I fail to see any evidence that hatred can be "masked and hidden". I understand that this is metaphorical and that a person doesn't always know that they are hating, but I fail to see where I am showing intense hostility and aversion. Please do quote me when I show intense hostility and aversion.
I would like to ask, how do you know if god is feeling ? I am assuming that you are not god, so how exactly can you know what god feels? I fail to see any authenticity towards god feeling hateful.
"And please, forget about the Tom and Clara analogy."
No, please point out the mistakes in that analogy. Clara shows no love to Tom, even if Tom really did love Clara. (I show no love to god, even if god really does love me). Therefor, its perfectly viable that Tom kills and tortures Clara. (God sends me to hell because of that). So, Tom (god) does not show any love to Clara because he tortured Clara forever.
"Don't blame God or you surroundings for your decisions"
Again, my personal experiences have no sources, or viable authentications. But, if god did love us, how come there are skeptics? Why didn't god save or "guide" them? Like I said, he is omnipotent. He has no limitations. Therefor, he should have the power to change people, or change the environment.
That closes my argument for round 4.
The only argument you have to deny God loves you is that He put in in surroundings where He is denied by everybody? Are you saying God should have brought you into existence through different parents if He wanted you to know He loves you? Are you blaming your parents for your belief that God does not love you? Did your parents forbid you from believing God loves you? Were your parents abusive? Do you feel threatened by people in your surroundings if you believe God loves you? Do you enjoy believing God does not love you? Since you believe God does not love you, do you think death is your friend which will deliver you from the surroundings you blame for your choices? How can God guide you anywhere if you say He is not there?
Sin makes us imperfect. If we are not remade, we will remain imperfect. God loves us so much that He took our death. He gave His Son to die for us, so He can forgive us based on the fact that our death could not hold His Son in the grave. God does not want you to burn in Hell. He loves you. That is why He took your death as God the Man, Jesus Christ. He paid for your wrongs so you do not have to pay in Hell.
When you first came into existence, you were not accountable since you could not understand right and wrong. Now your understanding of right and wrong is so keen that you feel you can find fault in God. You are responsible now for your choices, and you are accountable for the things you have done wrong. Now that you know, you deserve to burn in Hell the same as me. By saying God does not love you and He wants you to burn in Hell, you are ignoring the love He showed in taking your place in death to save you from Hell. By accusing God, standing against Him, saying He is not good enough for you, you are making yourself His enemy and finalizing your own death. You keep trying to blame God, but He will not take the blame for your actions. He took the penalty for you, He died for you, isn't' that enough? I guess you want to die for yourself. You are free to do that. God gave you that freedom because He loves you.
If you won't believe God loves you, you will never know He loves you. I can't prove something to you if you insist on believing it cannot be proved. I could quote you in many places in this debate saying things against God that show you hate Him. Once is enough. You will deny everything anyways, as long as you want to keep on believing God does not love you.
When you say God is not there, you are hating Him. You are denying Him. How more hateful can you be than to totally ignore and turn your back on somebody who loves you and say they do not exist? You don't have to shoot somebody to hate them. You can act nice around them, be nice and act friendly to them and their families, and still hate their guts.
You talk nice but you hate God's guts. It is people like you who turned their backs of Jesus who died for you, when He poured out His guts through torture and gave His life's blood in agony on the cross to pay for your sins against God. If that is not enough proof of God's love for you, that He died in your place to save you from your sin, nothing ever will be.
I know God loves you, and I know He is angry with you when you are standing firm denying Him. How do you think I know? I know He loves me. I know He was angry with me when I was like you, standing against Him and blaming him for my problems and the problems in the world. You can know, but you won't know if you don't want to and by the way you are saying you can't, the truth is you do not want to. I think you are afraid it would change you too much if you believe God loves you. You would have to tell all your atheist friends and family they are wrong and you don't have the guts to do that. I was like you before. That's how I know God loves you. He loves me. He is love.
Quoting you to show an example of your hatred toward God, which of course you will excuse and deny, "My opponent has not given any evidence that Jesus died specifically for our sins. Historically, Jesus died for calling himself the "King of Jews"
Here is the quote from the first page of the source you quote trying to say Jesus did not die for your sins.
"According to the gospels, the main charge against Jesus was that he claimed to be the king of the Jews. The Roman soldiers were mocking this idea when they dressed him in a purple robe and pressed a crown of thorns onto his head. This was also the charge written on the sign at the top of the cross.
But the charge was false. The enemies of Jesus had concocted it by twisting the meaning of the old Jewish prophesies about the coming of the Messiah."
http://www.gospel-mysteries.net... This is the source you quoted. Your own source says the thing you are asserting, that He died because He claimed to be king of the Jews is false. Further, again quoting your own source: "In any case, the crucifixion can be explained as a natural result of the prevailing political circumstances in Palestine. However, many Christians believe that it was actually pre-ordained beforehand, as part of a divine plan in which Jesus had to suffer and die as a sacrifice to pay for everyone sins."
The reason many Christians (all real Christians) believe Jesus died for our sins as part of God's divine plan is that this reason is the focal point of the entire Bible from Genesis through Revelation. You need to find a better source. Your own source is not only weak in supporting your falsehood, but it is terribly weak in understanding why Christians believe Jesus died for our sins. The source you quoted proves your argument is based on falsehoods. You are using a bad source to make a bad argument.
This statement is a fallacy contrived by people who hate God. There is a good reason why Wicker is often called wicked pedia. If you believe people who called Jesus a liar like you are calling Him a liar, you hate Him. You are denying that He took your death. This is not the topic of the debate, or I would show clearly from the Bible that Jesus came down from heaven to die for our sins. The reasons and excuses people gave for murdering him are irrelevant. He gave Himself willingly to die for you because He loves you. The way you make support fraudulent excuses for the people who murdered Him shows you hate Him. You talk nice and deny that you hate God, but the truth is that you hate Him. He still loves you. His love for you is constant affection, and His anger toward you is justified seeing how you hate Him in spite of the fact that He is holding you back from death now in hope that you will trust Him so He can forgive you and give you eternal life. How can you know His love; how can you know His forgiveness, if you say He is not there and there is nobody for you to say sorry for so you really feel you have nothing to be sorry for. You will not know His forgiveness, you will not know His love, if you will not believe He loves you. The evidence of this is that you do not believe he loves you so you do not know He loves you. I can't help it if you deny everything. God loves you and He will allow you to deny everything. He does not want a robot or he would have made you to be a monkey or a dog which knows nothing but how to be a monkey or a dog. You know how to be a man or how to be a devil. The problem is, you try to tell yourself that you are as good as God and not as bad as a devil. It's a devilish argument of pride against God and God still loves you and is calling out to you to trust Him and be saved from Hell and have eternal life. If you finalize your choice in death to deny His love, you will never have the chance to know His love because you will only know His wrath in the fire of Hell. He is, always has been, and always will be love if you finalize your death as His enemy or if you trust Him as your loving friend. The choice is yours and if you choose to reject His love, you can't blame Him for rejecting you and leaving you to fry like eternal sausage in the burning garbage pit of Hell. You blame Him now, so I guess you will always blame Him, but it never will do you any good. God is above blame. You are not.
Quoting you again, showing your hatred against God by blaming Him for your choice to deny His love for you,
"Again, my personal experiences have no sources, or viable authentications. But, if god did love us, how come there are skeptics? Why didn't god save or "guide" them? Like I said, he is omnipotent. He has no limitations. Therefor, he should have the power to change people, or change the environment."
Your personal experience has no sources? You blame God for placing you in the surroundings of people who say he is not there and He does not love you and now you say your personal experience has no sources? You are the source for your personal experiences. Are you lying or are you a good source? There are skeptics because God made you with a mind that can choose to be skeptical. You are not an ape, no matter what your biology teacher told you. An ape does not have the capacity to be skeptical of God. You do, and it's by choice. If I told and ape God loves him, it would say "scratch scratch, I want to pick fleas and eat bananas" I tell you God loves you and you say he does not. God allows you to be skeptical because you are more than a monkey. God loves you because you are special. You are like Him in your powers of imagination, creativity, and reason. In your pride you think you are more righteous than He is, so you talk bad about Him. He still loves you with constant and unchanging affection, even though you are pushing Him to give up on trying to persuade you to trust Him and let your death be finalized as His enemy and never know His love rejected by Him in Hell as you have rejected Him from life. He wants to change you, but you are too proud or too afraid, or both. You can't know His love if you are not changed from eternal death to eternal life. What do you think you have now by saying He does not love you?
"Are you saying God should have brought you into existence through different parents"
This is one of the reasons why I honestly don't want my personal life involved in this debate. The point that I was trying to convey, (I see that I have been misunderstood, perhaps due to my lack of explanation) if an Atheist was created or raised in a secular or Agnostic family, he deserves to burn because of that? He had little control of he's surroundings, so how is it justified that children deserve to burn due to the environment they have been raised in?
"Were your parents abusive? Do you feel threatened by people in your surroundings if you believe God loves you?"
I can understand what my opponent is trying to tell me. But I strongly object the fact that my opponent is implying that MY parents were being abusive. That is considered disrespectful in this debate. First of all, I never felt threatened. Making that sort of assumption, is quite unnecessary because you are implying my personal life. Second of all, if a child raised in an agnostic environment, how exactly will he come to the conclusion that god loves him? Even in that scenario, I fail to see how someone can feel threatened if they believe god loves them. My opponent has not provided any evidence stating that claim.
"Sin makes us imperfect. If we are not remade, we will remain imperfect."
I may be mistaken, but it seems like you are implying that we are made imperfect, and due to the "sinning" environment, we deserve to be sent to hell? This is exactly what I was trying declare in my previous paragraph. How is it someones fault that even if they are made perfect, they deserve to be sent to hell because of the sinning environment of which they have little control over?
"I know God loves you, and I know He is angry with you when you are standing firm denying Him. How do you think I know? I know He loves me"
This is an another example why I object bringing personal experiences to the debate. There is no source declaring that god loves you. I would like to ask how do you know he loves you? Even if he does love you, based on the definition of love, you cannot know what another being thinks just because he loves you.
Paragraph 7: I would like to apologize on my false source. I have no objection if sources are given to con. Although, to quote from the source "But this blame should probably be limited to the Jewish religious leaders, who had managed to keep some of their power by cooperating with the Romans.These leaders saw the crowds that gathered around Jesus, and they knew that many people were calling him the Messiah." This means that the Jewish leaders feared Jesus, thus executing him. Furthermore to quote from the source "A compromise view is that both groups, Jewish leaders and Romans, played major roles. But unless new evidence is uncovered, there will probably always be disagreement about who should get the most blame." This is implying that one of the group should get the blame of the reason for Jesus' execution. My opponent later states that I should find a new source. Perhaps Wikipedia, which states "Some scholars see little doubt that the reference to the execution of the "king of the Jews" is about the crucifixion of Jesus, while others place less value in the letter, given the possible ambiguity in the reference" This means that some scholars see little doubt about the fact that Jesus was called himself the King of Jews, and the reason for he's execution. I would like to point out, again I see how Christians believe that Jesus died for our sins. Yes, now including the Bible as a reference, I find no objection to that. But in Matthew 27:11 "Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "You have said so," Jesus replied." This means Jesus really did call himself the King of Jews, using the Bible as a reference.
Stating that Jesus did die for our sins, I fail to see how one death is equivalent to an eternity in hell?
"I tell you God loves you and you say he does not. God allows you to be skeptical because you are more than a monkey"
Well, from your argument the idea of god sending you to hell because you spent 100 years of your life sinning, I fail to see how god shows constant affection for eternity in hell.
That ends my round. I thank my opponent for making this debate, and I would appreciate that my opponent would not state that I am ignorant, and that my parents were abusive. I found that disrespectful. I apologize for my source, but it did state that either the Romans or they Jewish leaders are to blame. Thank you!
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