The Instigator
Black-Jesus
Pro (for)
The Contender
harrytruman
Con (against)

God, as depicted in the Bible, is no benevolent

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Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 7/19/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 339 times Debate No: 93920
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
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Black-Jesus

Pro

I just want a simple, easy and polite debate about religion, which I'm aware is akin to trying to get clean hands washing your hands in a mud pit, but I'm gonna try anyway. And yes, I am aware that this debate has been done hundreds of times.

I am going to argue that God, the almighty creator depicted in the Holy Bible, is no benevolent, or malevolent.

Four rounds:
-1st round: Acceptance/Opening statements
-2nd round: Opening arguments
-3rd round: Rebuttals/More arguments
-4th round: More Rebuttals/Closing statements

DEFINITIONS:
Benevolent (adj) - kind, generous or organized for the good of others
Malevolent (adj) - cruel or selfish
harrytruman

Con

I accept-
Debate Round No. 1
Black-Jesus

Pro

I thank harrytruman for accepting the debate and wish him good luck in the following rounds.

Wanton disregard for life:
Throughout the stories depicted in the Bible, especially in the Old Testaments, God is depicted as a character who has a blatant disregard for the value of human life, which has lead to his more heinous crimes against humanity. I shall summon three stories as examples:

1) The Flood (Genesis 6:5-8): God, as he witnessed evil in the heart of every human, regretted the decision to make them, so he decided to kill each and every single animal on Earth, except Noah and his family. Later, he made the rainbow to reappear after every rain as a sign of his covenant with the Earth to never again kill them all with rain again.

Not only does regretting making the people of the Earth give the impression that God is not all-knowing because he lacked the knowledge that he would one day regret making man, but it fails to mention why. Of course, the Bible says that it is because there is now evil in the hearts of mankind, we had become corrupted and the world was full of violence, but these accusations are quite vague, certainly when we later see such things that God calls "evil," except violence, but the world with mankind has never seen a day without violence, yet God only killed us all once? This also raises the question of why the animals and what about the Earth? Could you not strike down every human outside Noah"s family, and spare the animals and plantlife? What about the children? Can children truly be evil? Not by today"s standards. Why save Noah"s family? The Bible only states that Noah himself was faithful and walked with God, why save his children and wife? Why not make him another wife out of his rib to repopulate the Earth?

2) The Egyptian Plagues (Exodus 11:1-5): After Moses implores the Pharaoh of Egypt at the time to release his people, the Jews being enslaved by the Egyptians, and the Pharaoh stubbornly refuses. God punishes the Pharaoh until he releases the Jews with many horrid plagues including but not limited to: turning the water in the Nile into blood, locusts, darkness, death of livestock and the death of the first-born children of all Egyptians, even of the cattle.

This instance is my personal favorite because these attacks are not on the Pharaoh personally, no. These plagues, though directed at the Pharaoh, punishes ALL Egyptians indiscriminately. The children of the citizens of Egypt are not culpable for the actions of the ruling class in Egypt; the citizens are not culpable. The people that died directly by God"s hand were completely innocent; they were not, at all, responsible for the enslavement, mistreatment and prolonged imprisonment of the Jewish people.

3) The Conquest of Canaan (Deuteronomy 7:1-5): When God orders the Jews to go into the land of Canaan that he promised them and allowed them to lose, he orders them to kill each and every single person in the seven nations that have now claimed Canaan without mercy and to not intermarry with them, because he is jealous that they will turn the children to other gods and then God anger will "burn against you and will quickly destroy you."

The people of the land of Canaan, again, are innocent of any real wrongdoing, consisting of the young and mentally handicapped, and simply guilty only of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. God ordered the Jews to kill all of them for the simple reason that he did not want the people of Canaan to "corrupt" the minds of the Jews and get them to worship other gods for" reasons.


Arbitrary/Pointless Rules:
Leviticus is the third book of the modern bible and the main feature of Leviticus is a huge number of absurd rules and edicts that God gives to the Israelites, that include and by no means are limited to the restriction of the following:

1) Burning yeast or honey offerings to God (Leviticus 2:11)
2) Women must wait 33 days to go to church after giving birth to a boy or wait 66 days after giving birth to a girl (Leviticus 12:16)
3) Men having sex with men as with women, punishable by death (Leviticus 20:13)
4) Cursing any of your parents, punishable by death (Leviticus 20:9)
5) Blasphemy, punishable by death (Leviticus 24:14)

These are but a small handful of the many rules of Leviticus and Leviticus is nothing but the tip of the iceberg.

Narcissism:
1) God outlaws misuse of his name. (Exodus 20:7)
2) God outlaws the worship of another god. (Exodus 20:3)
3) God seems to only care about his followers based off of several occasions, some of which I"ve already covered.
4) Heaven is described as a place where celestial beings praise his name eternally. (Revelation 4:1-8)
5) Heaven can only be populated by people that love him.
6) God commands his followers to love him more than anything else. (Matthew 10:37 and 22:37)

God has a classic case of narcissism: he demands all around him like, nay love, him, not talk bad about him (blasphemy), and praise him endlessly or he will lay waste to them and send them to eternal torture in hell: he is selfish, egomaniacal and shows complete disregard for anyone else, except the few who do everything he says.



Source(s):
The Holy Bible - https://www.biblegateway.com...
harrytruman

Con


Bs”d



  1. The flood:


Let’s start here, the flood was not a disregard for life, it is very clear that G-d did not want to kill them all. According to Genesis 18:32 G-d will spare a place on account of 10 righteous people, but Noah and his sons plus their wives was only 8, so he destroyed the world and evacuated the 8. It does seem a bit strange though how G-d would kill al he animals but cared about them in Jonah 4:11 he seems to criticize Jonah for not caring about them, the thing is he still would have smote the livestock in Jonah, so there isn’t an inconsistency, but either way this means he does care for the animals.


G-d did know how man would have turned out, but he created them anyway despite the majority which would turn evil.


He saved Noah’s family because he had to repopulate the earth.


G-d didn’t take another rib and repopulate the earth because he would get a similar problem, so he saved Noah whose genetics would produce a less evil generation. Then work with it.



  1. The Plagues:


If the US decides to start a nuclear war with Russia, we will suffer even if it is Obamas fault.



  1. The conquest of Canaan:


The inhabitants of Canaan were not innocent; they practiced child sacrifice, temple prostitution, and many more terrible things.


Pointless rules:


This is based on your opinion, you decided that homosexuality is OK somehow therefor the Tanakh is stupid, whereas I could say that the Tanakh says homosexuality is immoral therefor you are stupid, I can prove that homosexuality is immoral without the Tanakh, but this is aside from the point.


The point of not burning honey to G-d was to avoid all leaven, which was symbolic.


Women were ritually impure after pregnancy for hygiene reasons.


Cursing your parents and blaspheme got death because they are wrong, Jews are judged harsher than gentiles.



Narcissism:


No, you are stoned for blaspheme similar to how you are stoned for cursing parents, it isn’t narcissism. Also, 2 of your claims have no verses behind them, and another 2 are based on the Non-Testament, so only the first 2 count. Idolatry is banned for many reasons and among them is because of human sacrifice.


Debate Round No. 2
Black-Jesus

Pro

I would like to start by pointing out that my opponent has already began his rebuttals, which were reserved for Round 3. Round 2 was only for opening arguments.

Rebuttals of rebuttals:

The Flood
The flood story takes place in Genesis 6-9, however, my opponent cited facts from Genesis 18, part of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah which is ill-related.



“It does seem a bit strange though how G-d would kill al he animals but cared about them in Jonah 4:11 he seems to criticize Jonah for not caring about them, the thing is he still would have smote the livestock in Jonah, so there isn’t an inconsistency, but either way this means he does care for the animals.”

I’m not sure what this means due to a lack of punctuation, however, if I am interpreting correctly, this means that God cares about the livestock in the city of Nineveh, but still must smote them in addition to the people. If God really cares about the lives of animals, then why not find an alternative method to kill the people and destroy the city of Nineveh, but preserve the animals? I’m sure that an all-powerful being that created the entire cosmos and all the life in it could accomplish such a comparatively easy task.



“G-d did know how man would have turned out, but he created them anyway despite the majority which would turn evil.”

God created man knowing they would be evil, to regret making them, so he could kill them? No comment.



“G-d didn’t take another rib and repopulate the earth because he would get a similar problem, so he saved Noah whose genetics would produce a less evil generation. Then work with it.”

If he took a rib from Noah’s side and fashioned a wife for him from it, then he would still have Noah’s genetics to repopulate the Earth because Noah’s rib contains Noah’s DNA.


The Plagues
“If the US decides to start a nuclear war with Russia, we will suffer even if it is Obamas fault.”

That still doesn’t make it right: Obama’s actions are still negatively affecting us. If anything, God should be held more accountable for such things, because not only is he a “perfect being” presiding over us flawed sinners, but he already knows everything so there is no misinformation or ignorance clouding his judgement.


The Conquest of Canaan
“The inhabitants of Canaan were not innocent; they practiced child sacrifice, temple prostitution, and many more terrible things.”

I’m sure the children and slaves would not agree with that sentiment.



Pointless Rules
My opponent states that I think homosexuality is okay and therefore I think the Tanakh is “stupid.” However, I am not arguing against the Tanakh, I am arguing against God, and not even the God of the Tanakh: the God of the Bible, as the title of this debate would suggest. I merely mentioned homosexuality because most people would agree that it is not immoral, especially from a secular standpoint. And I’d love to hear how my opponent could prove homosexuality secularly immoral, but I’m afraid that this would stray too far from the subject of this debate, so I will pass.



No comment on the honey



“Women were ritually impure after pregnancy for hygiene reasons.”

Perhaps an explanation of what these rituals were, what about hygiene makes these rituals pure or impure and what these “hygiene reasons” are would be fitting here.



“Cursing your parents and blaspheme got death because they are wrong, Jews are judged harsher than gentiles.”

Cursing your parents is not inherently wrong. What if you father is a pedophile and your mother cheered him on while she killed babies? Blaspheme is only wrong, perhaps, if there is a God, something that has not been proven and is not the point of this debate. “Jews being judged harsher” is not an excuse just like “Americans are judged harsher” is not an excuse for a death penalty for jaywalking in America.


Narcissism
“No, you are stoned for blaspheme similar to how you are stoned for cursing parents, it isn’t narcissism.”

So, you're not allowed to criticize/question/insult God or you die? No comment.



“Also, 2 of your claims have no verses behind them...”

Number 3 already has several verses behind it, which is why I referred back to other parts of my argument where the verses can be found. Number 5 shouldn’t require a verse as it is common knowledge, however: John 10:9 (in which Jesus describes the way to heaven), which is through him and the path through him is to baptize, wash away your sins, and pledge to obey and love God and the son.



“... and another 2 are based on the Non-Testament, so only the first 2 count.”

As previously stated, this debate is concerning the God of the Holy Bible, which consists of the Tanakh/Torah/Old Testament and the New Testament of Jesus Christ. This is stated once in the title of the debate and again in my opening statements. If my opponent was ill-prepared to defend God’s actions as depicted in the New Testament of the Bible, then he should not have accepted my challenge.



“Idolatry is banned for many reasons and among them is because of human sacrifice.”

I did not mention idolatry in my argument, but I assume that my opponent is referring to my implication that worshiping another God or following other religions should be allowed by a benevolent, Christian God, in which case: not every religion practices human sacrifice. In fact, every single one of the most popular religions on the planet do not.




Further Arguments

The Sins of the Father
The sins of the father being visited upon the son is recurring theme throughout the Bible, though most prevalently in the Old Testament. Regardless, this is yet another example of God’s deplorable sense of morality. The sins of the father are just that: the sins of the father. Not the sins of the son, not the sins of any of his children, and not the sins of his children’s children.

Yet God found it necessary to curse Canaan and each and every single one of his descendents because Noah, probably drunk, cursed him for seeing him naked. In fact, God directly admits to Moses in Exodus 34:7 and then to Moses when creating the ten commandments in 20:5 that he visits the sins of the father upon his children and his children’s children for many generations. Until he recants this later when he says to Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31: 29-30, “‘In those days people will no longer say,‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.’” But it is too late, and all damage that he has done had been done, and God does not care to reverse it: God is malevolent.

The Inferno
Yet the most damning of all evidence I have brought forth against the biblical God’s benevolence is what comes next: the inferno, hell, the pit, the lake of fire, the absence of God, his love, and any sort of comfort whatsoever. Hell is the epitome of all things pain and horror. Imagine getting burned on a stove top, now imagine your entire finger was on fire, now image your entire body was on fire, now imagine having that feeling for a day, then a week, then a year, then ten, the rest of your life, one hundred years, a thousand, a million, multiply that by another hundred and it still isn’t enough because Hell is forever.

Hell can be found in the Bible at:

Matthew 13:41-42: “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

and Revelation 20:13-15, 21:8: “The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death.”

Imagine all the atrocities that Hitler or Stalin committed. Is it not fair and moral to punish them to suffer equal pain as their victims for as long as the compounded experience of their victims or perhaps even more? Sure. That comes out to way less than an eternity because an eternity is forever. One must know that hell is much too harsh of a punishment if even the most evil human beings to walk the Earth are seen as too good for the fate of eternal damnation.

And still yet, there is no medium ground, except perhaps limbo in some Christian canon. If you die without accepting and loving Jesus Christ and God, if you die angry or gluttonous, if you worked on a Sunday one time and didn’t ask for forgiveness, hell is your punishment. Allow that to sink in, reader.

I rest my case.




Source(s):
The Holy Bible: https://www.biblegateway.com...
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Black-Jesus 1 year ago
Black-Jesus
@harrytruman, if you are reading this. I would like to restart this debate. There appears to have been some sort of systemic error with the site. If it is okay with you, I would like to restart this debate and we could just copy and paste our arguments and pick back up where we left off. I really enjoyed this debate and was looking forward to seeing how it ends. Message me or post another comment if you read this and are interested.
Posted by Black-Jesus 1 year ago
Black-Jesus
@Agingseeker, I never claimed there is an objective answer to the above question. What is and isn't benevolent/malevolent is a completely subjective question. My job is merely to try to prove that, by most human standards, God is indeed malevolent/not benevolent.
Posted by Agingseeker 1 year ago
Agingseeker
Well reason recoils at this question...Are we to assume that all those who vote a certain way are themselves malevolent or benevolent ? The plain statements should be the deciding statements. GOD IS LOVE. Now if you can't use that to understand the less clear parts of the Bible you can only conclude that the bible is a mixed depiction and gives nothing consistent.

The God of the Bible says in many places that we can only see what we are, just as the impure can't look at a member of the opposite sex the way others might, or a hunter look at a doe as others might, so too the perverse and the self-justifying will find God an enemy.
Posted by Black-Jesus 1 year ago
Black-Jesus
I mean "not benevolent" instead of "no benevolent"
Posted by Black-Jesus 1 year ago
Black-Jesus
I don't think that guy's been on in a long time. I think he saw that there was already a black Jesus and split.
Posted by UtherPenguin 1 year ago
UtherPenguin
You gotta challenge White_Jesus to this debate.
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