God cannot exist if you do
Debate Rounds (5)
Does God already know which direction I will choose? Which pizza I will buy? Supposedly God knew these things before I was even conceived, correct? God is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful. Where do my choices truly lie? Do I have a choice at all? Did God know if I was going to be a sinner or a saint when he created the universe? And if he did, am I really responsible for being a sinner or a saint? Supposedly he could have molded the universe in such a way that I would become whatever he needed or wanted me to be. God's plan, some call it.
Therein lies the kicker. If I have a choice, a real choice of A or B, something God did not know about when he first designed the universe, then he (or she) is by definition NOT all-knowing and NOT all-powerful. Choice is a power. And what we choose is known only to us along with why we choose it. So do we, as conscious entities, truly exist if there is an all-powerful all-knowing being, unaffected by time who knows every choice we have or will ever make? And if we do exist, if we have that power... is God... less than a god?
Alright, say you open a history book and read about other people's choices, just because you knew what choices they made doesn't mean they didn't have a choice in the matter. And G-d didn't create the Universe to get people to make certain choices, he just made it.
Traditionally I speak of the god of the Bible. The one who knows all, sees all, and is the creator of the heaven and the Earth. You know that every choice you've ever made has a cause. You drive left because you know that's the better route. You watch a show on TV because you heard about it from a friend. Name one choice you make that hasn't been influenced by previous decisions. Theoretically this could all be traced back to the beginning of the universe. It stands to reason that God could have (or still does) influence these factors to mold the universe to his liking.
Revelations even speaks of the "end times" so God obviously knows how everything will turn out and the events leading up to them. So was that just a prediction? Is there something that God doesn't know? Something he can't do? If you start placing limits on his power or his knowledge, doesn't that just place him in the category of some super powered being instead of a god?
G-d isn't an object or thing in the Universe, that means he has to take up space, and if he takes up space, that implies there are limits. He created the Universe, as well as the fabric of the Universe, as well as time, and every law pertaining to all of these. And though G-d may have the power to force people to make certaindecisions or to create the universe the way he wants as to result in these ecisions, being able to do something doesn't have the same implicdations as actualy doig it. It's like arresting someone for being able to commit a murder- its absurd.
And though every action is a response to another, you get to chose the response. If somethig happens, you have a number of ways you can respond, no one response is guarenteed, just that there will be one. I do not believe in the book of Revelation since it's part of the Non-Testament, though a few of its predictions are coming true, but regardless, trhese predictions are entirely situational, if people begin making different decisions, the outcome will be different. Here is scriptural evidence, Jeremiah 18:7-10:
"At one instant I may speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to break down and to destroy it; but if that nation turn from their evil, because of which I have spoken against it, I repent of the evil that I thought to do unto it. And at one instant I may speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; but if it do evil in My sight, that it hearken not to My voice, then I repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit it."
You can quote all the scripture you like but the fundamental questions remain. Did God not know these things from the beginning? If I choose to be good or choose to be evil... is this somehow a surprise to God? Is God looking at me saying "Wow, I did not know you were going to do that!"? Does God know how our minds work?
You talk about us having a choice about different ways we can respond to a situation... is that really true? Think about it. Of course there are options to any given situation but why do you pick the ones you pick. Of course you don't know all of them and you never will. Understanding all the causes and effects in your life would ultimately take a lifetime. i.e. Being a part of a system means that you can never fully understand the system. But you can see how certain elements affect us and our decision making process. I eat because I'm hungry. Why am I hungry? Because I haven't eaten in a while. Why haven't I eaten in a while? Probably because I got caught up in a project and lost track of time. Why did I get caught up in a project? Because it's important to me. Why is it important? Because I can sell what I'm building and make money? Why do I want to make money? Because I want to buy the PSVR when it comes out. Why? Because I went to a show last Summer and was able to try one and thought it was awesome. How did I get to the show? Because my friend had an extra ticket and gave it to me. Why are we friends? Because we went to school together. Why did we go to school together? Because our respective parents had sex at about the same time and we were conceived within a year of each other.
See what I mean? The next time you have a "choice" and decide on one thing or another, ask yourself if your choice is really yours. Meaning that absolutely nothing has influenced your thoughts, opinions, tastes, preferences, etc. For better or for worse we are the product of our environments. The question is whether you believe that environment had a creator. This isn't about good or evil; sin or repentance. It's about whether you think God had the power to create a world with the parameters he chose (tuning the dials, as they say) to obtain the result he wanted. Does God have a plan? Are you a part of that plan? Do you think you have the power to deviate from that plan?
No, situations don't determine the outcome, Corneilius vanderbuilts son started out with a rairoad monopoly that he inhereited from his father and ended uper-middle class, whereas Andrew Carnegie started dirt poor and became filfy rich. Biological twins, even though they have the same genetics and are born in the same environment make different choices, go research Quantum physics.
And It's just like I said, knowing your decisions doesn't mean you chose them. And G-d doesn't know them beforehand, that's by definition imposible since G-d exists outside of time.
And your second paragraph is more proving my point than it is yours. I'm talking about precipitating factors, not the decisions themselves. And I'm not saying anything about knowing your precipitating factors affects your decisions. In fact I specifically spoke to that effect in my previous argument when I said that you can never know all of the factors effecting your decisions, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. And saying God exists outside of time, but apparently knows NOTHING concerning the future seems paradoxical to me. Did God know Jesus would die? Did God know Jesus would be born? Did God send the wise men? Did God know about Moses? Did God know Eve would commit the first sin? Tell me again how God doesn't know ANYTHING about our decisions. I'd love to know more about how ignorant God truly is.
My first paragraph was intended to prove that situations don't determine the outcome. And I don't see how my second paragraph supported your view, like I said, G-d knows your decisions, he doesn't make them, and he couldn't have set things up so you would make certain decisions since circumstances don't decide outcomes.
TotalBS forfeited this round.
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