The Instigator
TotalBS
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
harrytruman
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

God cannot exist if you do

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
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It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/12/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 614 times Debate No: 92636
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (0)

 

TotalBS

Pro

This is based on a simple premise: God, whatever god you choose is traditionally said to be omniscient as well as omnipotent. Now, consider that you as a consciousness are the sum of your choices. Do I choose to go left or go right? Do I buy pizza from store A or store B? So on and so forth.

Does God already know which direction I will choose? Which pizza I will buy? Supposedly God knew these things before I was even conceived, correct? God is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful. Where do my choices truly lie? Do I have a choice at all? Did God know if I was going to be a sinner or a saint when he created the universe? And if he did, am I really responsible for being a sinner or a saint? Supposedly he could have molded the universe in such a way that I would become whatever he needed or wanted me to be. God's plan, some call it.

Therein lies the kicker. If I have a choice, a real choice of A or B, something God did not know about when he first designed the universe, then he (or she) is by definition NOT all-knowing and NOT all-powerful. Choice is a power. And what we choose is known only to us along with why we choose it. So do we, as conscious entities, truly exist if there is an all-powerful all-knowing being, unaffected by time who knows every choice we have or will ever make? And if we do exist, if we have that power... is God... less than a god?
harrytruman

Con

Bs"d
Alright, say you open a history book and read about other people's choices, just because you knew what choices they made doesn't mean they didn't have a choice in the matter. And G-d didn't create the Universe to get people to make certain choices, he just made it.
Debate Round No. 1
TotalBS

Pro

And yet, you are not the fundamental crux of this argument. Do you believe that God must be omniscient (meaning that God knows everything there is to know) or omnipotent (having the power to do anything)? Do you believe that God created the universe or is he just an element of the universe like the rest of us? Since all 3 of these aspects kind of go hand in hand (If God has the power to create the universe, it follows he has the power to create it as he wishes. If God knows everything he knows how to create a universe) they are complimentary. If not, you have to start placing limits on what God is. God is not the god of the Bible and instead is more like Oden in the Thor movies.

Traditionally I speak of the god of the Bible. The one who knows all, sees all, and is the creator of the heaven and the Earth. You know that every choice you've ever made has a cause. You drive left because you know that's the better route. You watch a show on TV because you heard about it from a friend. Name one choice you make that hasn't been influenced by previous decisions. Theoretically this could all be traced back to the beginning of the universe. It stands to reason that God could have (or still does) influence these factors to mold the universe to his liking.

Revelations even speaks of the "end times" so God obviously knows how everything will turn out and the events leading up to them. So was that just a prediction? Is there something that God doesn't know? Something he can't do? If you start placing limits on his power or his knowledge, doesn't that just place him in the category of some super powered being instead of a god?
harrytruman

Con

Bs"d
G-d isn't an object or thing in the Universe, that means he has to take up space, and if he takes up space, that implies there are limits. He created the Universe, as well as the fabric of the Universe, as well as time, and every law pertaining to all of these. And though G-d may have the power to force people to make certaindecisions or to create the universe the way he wants as to result in these ecisions, being able to do something doesn't have the same implicdations as actualy doig it. It's like arresting someone for being able to commit a murder- its absurd.

And though every action is a response to another, you get to chose the response. If somethig happens, you have a number of ways you can respond, no one response is guarenteed, just that there will be one. I do not believe in the book of Revelation since it's part of the Non-Testament, though a few of its predictions are coming true, but regardless, trhese predictions are entirely situational, if people begin making different decisions, the outcome will be different. Here is scriptural evidence, Jeremiah 18:7-10:
"At one instant I may speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to break down and to destroy it; but if that nation turn from their evil, because of which I have spoken against it, I repent of the evil that I thought to do unto it. And at one instant I may speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; but if it do evil in My sight, that it hearken not to My voice, then I repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit it."
Debate Round No. 2
TotalBS

Pro

And yet, the question remains. Does God know?

You can quote all the scripture you like but the fundamental questions remain. Did God not know these things from the beginning? If I choose to be good or choose to be evil... is this somehow a surprise to God? Is God looking at me saying "Wow, I did not know you were going to do that!"? Does God know how our minds work?

You talk about us having a choice about different ways we can respond to a situation... is that really true? Think about it. Of course there are options to any given situation but why do you pick the ones you pick. Of course you don't know all of them and you never will. Understanding all the causes and effects in your life would ultimately take a lifetime. i.e. Being a part of a system means that you can never fully understand the system. But you can see how certain elements affect us and our decision making process. I eat because I'm hungry. Why am I hungry? Because I haven't eaten in a while. Why haven't I eaten in a while? Probably because I got caught up in a project and lost track of time. Why did I get caught up in a project? Because it's important to me. Why is it important? Because I can sell what I'm building and make money? Why do I want to make money? Because I want to buy the PSVR when it comes out. Why? Because I went to a show last Summer and was able to try one and thought it was awesome. How did I get to the show? Because my friend had an extra ticket and gave it to me. Why are we friends? Because we went to school together. Why did we go to school together? Because our respective parents had sex at about the same time and we were conceived within a year of each other.

See what I mean? The next time you have a "choice" and decide on one thing or another, ask yourself if your choice is really yours. Meaning that absolutely nothing has influenced your thoughts, opinions, tastes, preferences, etc. For better or for worse we are the product of our environments. The question is whether you believe that environment had a creator. This isn't about good or evil; sin or repentance. It's about whether you think God had the power to create a world with the parameters he chose (tuning the dials, as they say) to obtain the result he wanted. Does God have a plan? Are you a part of that plan? Do you think you have the power to deviate from that plan?
harrytruman

Con

No, situations don't determine the outcome, Corneilius vanderbuilts son started out with a rairoad monopoly that he inhereited from his father and ended uper-middle class, whereas Andrew Carnegie started dirt poor and became filfy rich. Biological twins, even though they have the same genetics and are born in the same environment make different choices, go research Quantum physics.
And It's just like I said, knowing your decisions doesn't mean you chose them. And G-d doesn't know them beforehand, that's by definition imposible since G-d exists outside of time.

Debate Round No. 3
TotalBS

Pro

Nothing in your first paragraph makes any sense so I'm skipping over most of it. It's as if you're saying that precipitating factors cannot influence people. Biological twins are not born in the same environments by definition. Unless they exist in the same points in space at all times, their environments are always different. In fact, they probably evolve in different ways specifically because they have a twin sibling. Quantum physics? What does that have to do with any of this?

And your second paragraph is more proving my point than it is yours. I'm talking about precipitating factors, not the decisions themselves. And I'm not saying anything about knowing your precipitating factors affects your decisions. In fact I specifically spoke to that effect in my previous argument when I said that you can never know all of the factors effecting your decisions, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. And saying God exists outside of time, but apparently knows NOTHING concerning the future seems paradoxical to me. Did God know Jesus would die? Did God know Jesus would be born? Did God send the wise men? Did God know about Moses? Did God know Eve would commit the first sin? Tell me again how God doesn't know ANYTHING about our decisions. I'd love to know more about how ignorant God truly is.
harrytruman

Con

My first paragraph was intended to prove that situations don't determine the outcome. And I don't see how my second paragraph supported your view, like I said, G-d knows your decisions, he doesn't make them, and he couldn't have set things up so you would make certain decisions since circumstances don't decide outcomes.
Debate Round No. 4
TotalBS

Pro

TotalBS forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by kwagga_la 11 months ago
kwagga_la
@TotalBS I'm a bit busy and did not have time to reply to your questions and I see your debate is finished. If you'd like to debate the topic again I will accept. Have a great weekend!
Posted by TotalBS 11 months ago
TotalBS
It's not a question of whether God chooses to do something or whether he chooses not to. It's a question of whether or not he can. Does God know the future?

God is the creator of the heavens and the Earth? Correct? God is all-powerful, correct? Whether he is an active God (intervening in people's lives) or a passive God (it's all a part of God's plan), the crux of the argument is the same. If God chooses to stop me from doing something like slaughtering everyone in my neighborhood with an Uzi, he could. Correct? He could actively intervene or he could have designed the universe from the beginning so this would not take place. In either case, I am subject to God's will. If you think not, then I am in effect, more powerful than God since I can defy his will. Or you can think in the inverse, if God wants this event to occur... Am I responsible for the action. Could I say "no, this is wrong, I'm not going to do this"? I would be again, going against God's desire and will, and thus be more powerful than God.

You're focused on what's good and what's bad and I'm saying cast that aside, look at it without morality as a factor. This is a question beyond what's in the Bible and focuses on the fundamental nature of what a god truly is. Your answers are "God said this" and "God said that" because you limit your thinking to rhetoric. If that serves you, fine. But it doesn't resolve the paradox.
Posted by kwagga_la 11 months ago
kwagga_la
There is many things wrong with this argument. One of them is the explanation of Almighty referring to the God of the Bible. The only way God can be Almighty is if He can choose not to do something. If He did not have a choice then He was bound by some law or power that forced Him to react in a certain manner without being able to act contrary. The Bible says God cannot lie. If God cannot lie then it means there is something He cannot do but the assumption that God is therefore not almighty is wrong. God cannot lie because God choose not to lie. God says He cannot remember my sins when I confess it because He chooses not to remember it. If He is forced to remember my sins and cannot forget them then He is not Almighty because He is bound by something that forced on Him to react in only one way without having a choice. The same mistake is committed here that is typical of people who do not understand Bible theology but would like to force on the Bible what they think the Bible should say. One other example is the All-loving God of the Bible argument. The God of the Bible is not all-loving because you cannot be just or righteous when you are all-loving and allow people to do whatever they want without any accountability. There is a difference between God being love, and being all-loving. Any parent loves their children but reprimand them out of love when they do wrong. An all-loving parent would not do that and hence the contradiction that if the parent does not teach the child then how can you say the parent loves the child?
Posted by Jack_Dead 11 months ago
Jack_Dead
The con side is a beast @@
Posted by vi_spex 11 months ago
vi_spex
so there is your definition
Posted by kwagga_la 11 months ago
kwagga_la
@vi_spex I understand his argument well enough to know it can only apply to an omniscient and omnipotent god.
Posted by vi_spex 11 months ago
vi_spex
not that i expect anyone to, its logical
Posted by vi_spex 11 months ago
vi_spex
you dont understand his argument
Posted by kwagga_la 11 months ago
kwagga_la
@TotalBS Perhaps you should define which specific god you refer too. You state that "God, whatever god you choose is traditionally said to be omniscient as well as omnipotent". Not all the gods are traditionally considered all-powerful or all-knowing that may be chosen in all the different religions. Examples of this can be found (but not limited too) in the Hindu, Norse and ancient Greek religions. Therefore arguing against a generic god that may include these gods is not logical because the argument will not apply to them. Therefore the argument can at best be used to prove SOME gods cannot exist if you do.
Posted by canis 11 months ago
canis
God can not exist if you do not imagine "him".
No votes have been placed for this debate.