The Instigator
riclanda
Pro (for)
Losing
19 Points
The Contender
Kleptin
Con (against)
Winning
45 Points

God does have a plan, but we still have free will.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/18/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,150 times Debate No: 2750
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (16)

 

riclanda

Pro

God does have a divine plan for everybody. At the same time, God gives us all free will to do what we want. Some might say that this is contradicting. It is not, because God knows all the decisions we are going to make. He knows the decision we are going to make before we make it. If you read this correctly, the person is still makes the decision. God knows all the decisions in your life and has planned for them. He has planned everybody' decisions, so that they will be part of His big picture. So if you have read this the way that I want you to read this, you will notice that the person is making a decision.
Kleptin

Con

"God does have a divine plan for everybody. At the same time, God gives us all free will to do what we want. Some might say that this is contradicting. It is not, because God knows all the decisions we are going to make. He knows the decision we are going to make before we make it. If you read this correctly, the person is still makes the decision. God knows all the decisions in your life and has planned for them. He has planned everybody' decisions, so that they will be part of His big picture. So if you have read this the way that I want you to read this, you will notice that the person is making a decision."

In situations like this, the socratic method is best used. But that's not possible in this type of debate so I'm in a bit of a pickle.

A = Atheist
B = Deist
C = Calvinist

I've decided to pick the middle road.

I argue that God was responsible for the universe to come into being. However, our image of God is different from what God really is, and God really isn't like a human at all.

I don't think God plans anything. He pretty much leaves everything up to us. To assume so would be to assume that God shares characteristics with us. We're not that special. Why should God be so similar to us? If God created the universe, then he can't be a meat-sack like us, can he?

If you can offer some good arguments to back up all those claims you have there, I might be able to respond. You have a lot of claims to back up. But for now, I'm going by what I see, and what I don't see, and I don't see a God that meddles in my life or plans it out for me, or even cares.
Debate Round No. 1
riclanda

Pro

I have to agree that God isn't human at all. However he does have a plan for us. If God didn't have a plan, why would he have created the universe? If He had no plan, why would he want to make humans?
If God hadn't planned out everything, wouldn't the human race already kiled itself?
The reason that you don't see God in everything you do, is because He gave you the power to live, and decide. This is going off the assumption that God is all knowing. He knows all the decisions that everyone will make for all time. Based on the decisions that He knows you will make, He knows how it will end up. Saying this He has a plan because He knows. He alos knows everbody elses decisions, so He knows the future. This is the same as saying that, if you know how a friend is going to react to you saying something, you have a plan of how they react. They still have that free choice, but you have a plan of their reaction. Same with God.
Kleptin

Con

"I have to agree that God isn't human at all."

Excellent

"However he does have a plan for us."

I'll wait for it...

"If God didn't have a plan, why would he have created the universe?"

What makes you think that God causing the universe was an act of willful creation? Perhaps it was a chance event in which God *became* the universe.

"If He had no plan, why would he want to make humans?"

Again, why do you assume that God "wants" things? Humans want things. Like food. Or toys. Why do we assume God wants things?

"If God hadn't planned out everything, wouldn't the human race already kiled itself?"

Why would it? When humans grow up, they no longer need their parents to care for them. And I don't see God giving us sweaters, chicken soup, or lessons on how to tie our shoelaces. There is absolutely no indication that God is interfering in our lives. So how is that different from living alone?

"The reason that you don't see God in everything you do, is because He gave you the power to live, and decide."

Cyclical logic/begging the question fallacy. I can simply counter that when the only tool you own is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

"This is going off the assumption that God is all knowing. He knows all the decisions that everyone will make for all time. "

Perhaps God isn't all knowing. Maybe knowledge isn't a good thing. Who says it has to be? Maybe power isn't a good thing. You won't argue that God has any negative characteristics, and whether something is positive or negative is subjective, so God basically has no valid characteristics we can conceive of.

"Based on the decisions that He knows you will make, He knows how it will end up."

Argumentum ad nauseum. If I say "You are a pink llama" 200 times without giving evidence, it doesn't make you a pink llama.

"Saying this He has a plan because He knows. He alos knows everbody elses decisions, so He knows the future."

Argumentum ad nauseum. If I say "You are a pink llama" 200 times without giving evidence, it doesn't make you a pink llama.

"This is the same as saying that, if you know how a friend is going to react to you saying something, you have a plan of how they react. They still have that free choice, but you have a plan of their reaction. Same with God."

Irrelevant. My argument is essentially that we cannot use what we know of the human world to assume characteristics of God. So no analogies of human interaction are valid. In your analogy, you liken God to a human with a friend. I find that comparison to be so far-fetched, it loses all meaning.

*******

My argument is essentially this:

All the things you have parroted about God, you don't support any of them. You simply state and restate them. "This thing is round". "This thing is spherical". "This thing has no corners". Restating or rewording a statement doesn't show whether it is true or not. For all I know, the thing you're talking about could be a microwave. You keep saying "God has a plan". Why do you believe God has a plan? Why do you believe that God has the capacity to plan?

Allow me to answer this question for you:

God, whatever it may be, is unknown to man and always will be unknown to man. We can say that whatever is unknown is God, without being totally wrong.

If we were to say that God is anything EXCEPT unknown, we would have a problem. Because any characteristic we put on God is most likely an anthropomorphism. Simply speaking, we look at all the cool stuff that humans do, and we assume God does it too, only better.

Like thinking. Or loving. Or having power. God is omniscient, omnipotent, and loves unconditionally.

Kind of like Superman, except without kryptonite.

God speaks human words with a human voice about human things. God feels human emotions and acts in human ways. Isn't this wrong? There's no reason for God to resemble a human at all. It's pure arrogance to think so.

So no. Humans plan. Humans create things willingly for a purpose. What makes you think God does?
Debate Round No. 2
riclanda

Pro

sure, you win why not aDD TO YOUR TOATL!!!!!. gOOD LUCK i do think that any arguement i write you will overcome with logic. good job.
Kleptin

Con

I'll take my opponent up on his offer.

I respectfully accept your concession and hope to debate you again.
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Tatarize 9 years ago
Tatarize
Kleptin, you should have argued all three points and simply subdivided them. Give the atheist smackdown, then the deist, then the Calvinist.
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
Shame that PRO didn't put up a fight. :(
Posted by Conspicuous_Conservative 9 years ago
Conspicuous_Conservative
PRO you where on the side of truth, but you squandered the facts good job con.
Posted by SolaGratia 9 years ago
SolaGratia
This is an idiotic debate. I refuse to vote. It had so much potential. *sigh*
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"If God didn't have a plan, why would he have created the universe?"

What makes you think he did that? :D
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
Come on...pick B or C x.x

If you don't pick by tomorrow, I'll flip a coin.
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
Okay, in that case, please pick either B or C.

Stupid picky logical master ><
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
The "prove God exist" route is pretty predictable. Go for the least predictable! :D
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
Let's play a little game.

I have 3 ways to argue against you.

Please pick either A, B, or C and I will argue accordingly.
16 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Kleptin 8 years ago
Kleptin
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Vote Placed by JBlake 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by Robert_Santurri 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by Tatarize 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by PreacherFred 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by dairygirl4u2c 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by bluemooncowza 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by guyonthecomputer 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Logical-Master 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by JustCallMeTarzan 9 years ago
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