The Instigator
Molokoplus
Pro (for)
Winning
35 Points
The Contender
Emflo
Con (against)
Losing
23 Points

God does not and cannot exist

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/23/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,153 times Debate No: 7949
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (9)

 

Molokoplus

Pro

I like your style of trying to get people to think differently and question their own beliefs. I therefore challenge you to this debate in the same spirit of attempting to make you question your personal beliefs.

I became an atheist because religion and the concept of god do not make any sense to me. Moreover, any argument that I have ever had boils down to an unverifiable belief rather than empirical fact. As for the concept of god being unable to exist, I will let you post an argument before I move on, because I want to have a solid base to refute from. I hope this is an interesting debate!
Emflo

Con

God shows himself in many ways. He say himself, search and you will find me. He has shown himself through miracles, he has created, the earth. But all in all God doesn�t have to do anything, to reveal himself, he doesn�t need to prove himself, because he is. God speaks through people, and people are touched in unthinkable amazing ways. God loves us and cares for us, he sent Jesus his son, as a sacrifice for our wrong doings, so that we may live with him. But we all have free will, and will never force us to live with him. Believing in God does take faith, so in that since, I will not be arguing, because God is, but you may ask questions.
Debate Round No. 1
Molokoplus

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate (emphasis on debate, as i would like to debate, not ask questions).

To be honest though , I really don't know where to begin with this. First off,

UNVERIFIABLE BELIEFS:

He say himself, search and you will find me.
He has shown himself through miracles, he has created, the earth.
God speaks through people
people are touched in unthinkable amazing ways.
he sent Jesus his son, as a sacrifice for our wrong doings, so that we may live with him.

If any other debate used as many indemonstrable "facts" as proof, it would fail. How can these be counted as evidence here?
In your other debate, you said that there is no answer for the origin of life, and therefore, this must be attributed to god. Did you ever think of ancient times, when people could not understand lightning or ocean waves, and so ascribed these to the work of gods? Now we know that static electricity causes lightning, not Zeus. Think of the time difference separating us from them. Now think of that same difference, but into the future. Do you honestly think that anyone will continue to believe in God, when science can explain everything in the universe? I personally do not think so.

Religion is the classic failing of the scientific method. How can you say that you want people to search out the truth, when you have given up so easily? If we continued to believe that Zeus causes lightning, could we ever have harnessed electricity? Throughout the history of humanity, we have tended to place trust in metaphysical beings as a way to rationalize our own failings.

Can't find a meaning in life?--- believe in afterlife
Can't rationalize an unjust death?---think it's God's will
Can't understand origin of life?--- think God's will
Can't describe natural phenomenon?--- think it's God
Can't understand origin of Universe?--- once again, attribute this to God.

May I ask you, were you raised religious from a young age? I can't imagine a modern day human, versed in all matters EXCEPT religion, to pick up a Bible and take it as fact. Surely, if you think about it in an unbiased way, you couldn't either. This is because of the critical learning stage of childhood, meaning that things learned then make a huge impact on the development of the individual. Imagine if a child was raised to think that the Earth was a colony world, and that the human home world was elsewhere. If everyone around this child told him that it was true, he would inevitably believe it. The Bible and this fantasy have exactly the same amount of evidence behind them: NONE. The Bible is merely a book written by humans, not the word of God. If perhaps a voice read the Bible out loud from the sky, and there were fiery plasma inscriptions in the sky that defied all science, and this voice also proclaimed information that I had never spoken aloud, I would take the Bible as the word of god. And even then, I would only believe this after all other explanations had been proven false. I really am sorry for that long ramble, it was probably pointless. All I'm trying to say is that you are attributing to God what can and will be explained by science.

A few questions (though I am loathe to ask them during a supposed debate):
If you believe God is the creator, what created him?
Why would you believe God is a male?
How can an omnipotent being exist?
What makes you sure that there is a God?

I really just do not understand any belief in anything that has no evidence behind it. Basically, saying that God requires faith is tantamount to saying that he, for all practical uses, doesn't exist.

Sorry, I had to get this on here fast, so I didn't really get to go into detail this round. Oh well, looking forward to Round 3.
Emflo

Con

First of all you are not debating with me, you skipped all the things I have mentioned, and then started some random subject that has to do withnothing. I don�t believe in Zeus, if that's what you want to know. I believe in a God who created the heavens and earth, and has sent his son down to earth, God in human form, to suffer, what we suffer, and paid with a painful death to pay our sin, and trespasses against God.

Now if you want to talk about old times. Tell me, does truth ever change? Then why for so many year for as long as the earth hasexisted have people believed in a God. And all other beliefs, in multiple Gods and all sorts of Gods, have come to pass, when the idea, of evolution, has been around for only a short time.

I think you just don�t want to believe in a God because, what you do will matter, big time. But the question isn�t if God is existing, that is answered when you open up your eyes. The question is if you are living the life God has planed for you to live.

So I can see your point these days, we have science, right, this is what man has made up, but what will you say, when you meet God face to face, and asks you what you have done with the time he has given to you?

A few questions (though I am loathe to ask them during a supposed debate):
If you believe God is the creator, what created him?
Why would you believe God is a male?
How can an omnipotent being exist?
What makes you sure that there is a God?

So your questions I will gladly reply,
Who created God? NO one created God he always was, and always will be. But The question is what created you, for you have not always been, but you always will be.

A Male God, He is know as our father, and we are his children, he welcomes us into his family.

How can an Omnipotent being exist? HOW? It just is.

I am sure there is a God, first because of his creation, the earth, and all the living things on it, He has made, It is his handywork. The great works he has done in my life and others through prayer, healing, miracles, cancer cured, doctors have no explanation, a man says are you the Jesus people, and he says he was the dead man that they prayed for. People taken to Heaven, to hell, People that see angels, demons, Jesus. The love, and trust, and friendshipChristians have. The change that comes when people give their lives to God, The chains that are broken such as addictions. To me the question isn�t if I believe there is a God, even the Demons know of God and shudder at his name, the question is what can I do for God, how can I deepen my relationship with him.

You need to do some research. There have been much research on the bible, and the resurrection. You are just being ignorant, People have dedicated their lives to search for the truth, if the bible is valid. You are a Fool to say it is false, and has no significance. There are books out there. There are scientist, historians,etc, that believe there is a God.
Debate Round No. 2
Molokoplus

Pro

Okay, time to wrap this up. To be honest, the clarity of your writing is pretty low, and I apologize in advance if I state your position wrongly.

First off, I did not skip "all the things you mentioned", I basically quoted your entire argument as being an unverifiable belief. In summary, you wrote a fairy tale that many people delude themselves into believing as real. Also, my elaboration on ancient gods is completely relevant and essentially has to do with everything. I am quite sure that your ears have been overwhelmed with people saying that there is no god, and that all evidence points toward this fact. I am equally sure that you utterly dismiss these dissenting voices as ignorant and foolish (the exact words you called me lol). But what I attempt to show logically with this argument is the psychological aspects of supernatural belief. Just as ancient people once utilized Zeus and Poseidon to explain natural events, so do modern people cite "God" (Jesus, Yahweh, Allah) as the creator of the universe and of intelligent life. The idea is that science has explained these natural events, and therefore, these archaic gods are no longer worshiped. Going along this line of thought, when the origin of the universe is explained fully, one can no longer ascribe this event to God. Much the same with the origin of life. When these key discoveries occur, I sincerely believe that people will no longer continue to believe that "a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree." Is there a god of nuclear fusion? Of course not, such a thought is insane. But why? It is because we did not have any need to explain this event through metaphysical means, for the discovery and explanation of the process went hand in hand. The point of mentioning this is to show that human nature invariably turns to the supernatural to explain the physical world. However, when the scientific (read: correct) process yields an answer, the gods associated with this process invariably vanish. I hope you think this over and see the truth of this argument.

You believe in God because: "of his creation, the earth, and all the living things on it, He has made, It is his handywork."
The great works he has done in my life and others through prayer, healing, miracles, cancer cured, doctors have no explanation, a man says are you the Jesus people, and he says he was the dead man that they prayed for. People taken to Heaven, to hell, People that see angels, demons, Jesus. The love, and trust, and friendship Christians have. The change that comes when people give their lives to God, The chains that are broken such as addictions."

Every single one of the things you first mentioned can or will be explained via science. I'm sure that everyone reading this understands the basics of planetary formation, though if not, http://en.wikipedia.org... here you go. Also, saying that God cures diseases is wholly false. Doctors do not have "no explanation" for a patient who recovers, they merely did not expect the aforementioned patient to make such a recovery. Every healing can be explained through probability and the body's natural healing processes. Think of the untold millions who have died in a hospital bed, fervently praying to God to heal them. You may say something about God working in mysterious ways, or that these people were not "true Christians, and therefore did not deserve healing. This is false; the true explanation is that there is no God, and that unlikely recoveries are merely the byproduct of natural processes. Same for addictions: motivation is the most major factor in staying off a drug. Yet it is not God helping people, it is merely people deluding themselves that a god exists, which aids in motivation.

Voters, the obvious choice here is to vote Pro. However, I am sure that many of you reading this are faithful to your fairytale beliefs and would no more vote for me than you would piss on a Bible. The point of me proposing this debate was not to win, but only to advance the argument of science replacing god. Of course, this is a well-worn topic, but I hope my comparisons to the ancient Roman gods will stick in at least one mind, and perhaps sway one opinion. The sooner we as an intelligent race stop our pointless belief in the supernatural, the sooner we can move on with mastering the physical world.

Also, if I was completely wrong and I end up meeting God face to face, I'm pretty sure that he would be pleased with the lifesaving work in Biomedical Engineering that I'll have done with my life. If he would accept a pathetic loser who prays over a contributing member of society who doesn't, then I wouldn't want to accept such a shitty god anyways. And yes, there are scientists who accept god. But there are many, many more who do not. That was a useless thing to say, and I'm pretty sure that it is YOU who chooses not to open your eyes to the truth around you. Good luck on your final round!

However, I would like to see some proof for people being taken to Hell and Heaven, or for Angels and Demons existing. Those are beliefs as supernatural as any fairytale: they are not real. Reality is defined through our concrete experience of the natural world around us, not some fables written in a book.

An omnipotent being cannot exist. Answer this sufficiently: Can god make a rock too heavy to lift? Either way, there will be something which god cannot do, shattering the ideal of omnipotence.

You believe that God is a male because the Bible refers to god this way. This was done by the writers to put women at a disadvantage and to keep women subservient to man. If a woman believe that men are more god-like than women, they will forever be at a psychological disadvantage, which was the aim of the writers of the Bible and Torah.
Emflo

Con

Nice arguing, I was hoping you would be more open minded. Of course all people can find answers for things, but in the end all we want is the truth.

"The idea is that science has explained these natural events, and therefore, these archaic gods are no longer worshiped. Going along this line of thought, when the origin of the universe is explained fully, one can no longer ascribe this event to God. Much the same with the origin of life. When these key discoveries occur, I sincerely believe that people will no longer continue to believe that "a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever"

As you have stated "When these key discoveries occur" you agree that they have not been found, Science as it is today is not a full, stories, there are so many questions. In My Defense, I say when Modern Science is disproved. But who wants to wait for others to prove things to us and I find that I have all the proof I need.

"saying that God cures diseases is wholly false. Doctors do not have "no explanation" for a patient who recovers, they merely did not expect the aforementioned patient to make such a recovery. Every healing can be explained through probability and the body's natural healing processes".

Doctors, are very intelligent, they have seen the worst cases, and have been through a lot. When they say their is no explanation, there is none, but God.

Here is a testimony of the healing power of God, these are from others, not mine

Gary was on the back of a motorcycle when a woman hit them head on several years earlier. He spent months in the hospital, and although most of his injuries had healed, he had a ruptured disk that caused him unending pain. Often it would be so bad that he would have to leave work early. A co-worker offered to see if he could help with hands on Christian healing and although Gary was not certain he believed it possible, he knew the doctors had told him there was nothing else they could do.

Every time his pain became too much, he went to the co-worker who put his hands on his back and prayed for his healing. The heat was intense, and after a minute or two the pain would subside. However, a few hours later it would return. He was discouraged that although the healing would work for a while, the pain would eventually return. However, over the next few weeks the pain took longer and longer to return, and was less and less severe. After 5 or 6 weeks the pain was gone for good.

Gary returned to the doctor for his periodical checkup. The doctor was astounded that the ruptured disk had healed! According to him, ruptured disks do not heal. When pressed for an explaination the doctor said the only possible explaination was that obviously there had been a mixup on his X-RAYS before (every time they took them) and that the file X-Ray's were of someone else. However Gary and I know the truth.

These are not the only ones out there, there are so many many more. And its is so much more powerful when you are there at the healing or you see the person before and after, and they have noexplanation, but the healing hand of God.

"Think of the untold millions who have died in a hospital bed, fervently praying to God to heal them. You may say something about God working in mysterious ways, or that these people were not "true Christians, and therefore did not deserve healing."

God is the creator of life, that also gives him the power to take life. No one lives forever. It has nothing to do with deserving, we don�t deserve anything. God is a gracious God, all the time we have turned away from him, and he still loves us.

"Of course, this is a well-worn topic, but I hope my comparisons to the ancient Roman gods will stick in at least one mind, and perhaps sway one opinion. The sooner we as an intelligent race stop our pointless belief in the supernatural, the sooner we can move on with mastering the physical world."

I am glad for the conversation, but Its not like this is new, I questioned my belief in God many times. I also took in the science side, found what it really is , and foundChristianity a whole lot more stable, and with a relationship with God that is no longer a question.

"However, I would like to see some proof for people being taken to Hell and Heaven, or for Angels and Demons existing."

There are a handful of books I have read personally

The first Heaven is so real

A Message From Choo Thomas Regarding "Heaven is so Real"
Greetings to you in the name of our Lord Jesus,

The Lord himself took me to heaven 17 different times, in my transformed spirit body, at an age of about 15 to 16 years old and showed me countless things in heaven that He has prepared for His people, and showed me hell twice. He also showed me things during the time of the tribulation, after He took His people to heaven. After the end of all these visions, He showed me the rapture. The preface clearly explains how the Lord took me to heaven. When you read this book you will see how the Lord took care of this book from the beginning to end of publishing.

The second "23 minutes in Hell"

Bill Wiese saw the searing flames of hell, felt total isolation, and experienced the putrid and rotting stench, deafening screams of agony, terrorizing demons, and finally, the strong hand of God lifting him out of the pit.
"Tell them I am coming very, very soon!"
Wiese's visit to the devil's lair lasted just twenty-three minutes, but he returned with vivid details etched in his memory. Since this life-changing ordeal, he has spent the last seven years studying the Scriptures to find answers and has listed more than 150 Bible verses referencing hell.

"Even if you don't believe my story, I hope you will believe the Scriptures and avoid hell just the same."

The third

Don Piper, a Baptist pastor, claims to be a fourth, though unlike the other three, he first had to die. Returning home from a conference, Piper's car was crushed under the wheels of a truck. Medical personnel declared him dead at the scene of the accident. But ninety minutes after this accident, a pastor, waiting at the scene, was told by God to pray for the dead man. He did so, and Piper immediately returned to life. For the 90 minutes that his body lay lifeless inside the car, Piper claims to have been in heaven. He now carries with him memories of paradise and in 90 Minutes in Heaven, a book which has sold over 500,000 copies, he seeks to encourage other Christians with a description of our eternal home. "Because I was able to experience heaven," he says, "I was able to prepare [friends] for it. And now I am preparing you."'

"An omnipotent being cannot exist. Answer this sufficiently: Can god make a rock too heavy to lift? Either way, there will be something which god cannot do, shattering the ideal of omnipotence."

By this question I have the feeling you know there is a God, but you just don�t want to face what that would mean so and don�t want to change . So you ask yourself what you want and try to make people prove God is real, and no one can, until he comes for all to see, It takes some faith. Also God is not a hypocrite, he is all Good, and is capable do anything, but doesn't. I challenge you to ask God, and to open up you heart to God.

"You believe that God is a male because the Bible refers to god this way. This was done by the writers to put women at a disadvantage and to keep women subservient to man. If a woman believe that men are more god-like than women, they will forever be at a psychological disadvantage, which was the aim of the writers of the Bible and Torah."

Oh Please. The bible clearly says male and female are equals. It does say that women are to submit to their husbands, and husbands to love theirwives, as God loves his children. Marriage is a choice, and a wedding is when the two become one, both can�t be leaders, but both need to listen to one another, otherwise it will not work.

:)
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by RoyLatham 8 years ago
RoyLatham
Pro had an obligation prove that no God, no matter how defined, could possibly exist. The gods that are most difficult to disprove are the ones that have no interaction with the world, like Jefferson's Deism God who created the world then does nothing until returning in judgment. Pro said nothing that would disprove the Deist God. Pro in fact made no opening argument establishing even a prima facia case.

On the other hand, Con took the tactic of attempting to assert a counterexample, but mainly just repeatedly made the assertion without much support. Con had an edge in conduct, by not belittling Pro's arguments.

I'll give it to Pro by about 1 point.
Posted by Icarus57 8 years ago
Icarus57
Con was a disgrace to anyone with actual faith.
Posted by Molokoplus 8 years ago
Molokoplus
sorc, you took the words out of my mouth. GodSands clearly admitted that the Christian idea of God as omnipotent means that this God can lift EVERY rock. This therefore means that this God cannot make a rock too heavy to lift, and thus proves a limit to the potency of God, negating the idea of omnipotence.
Posted by sorc 8 years ago
sorc
Pro dominated Con. Con dodged any question he didnt like.

@GodSands If God cannnot make a rock too heavy to lift, then how is he omnipotent? Please be very clear.
Posted by KRFournier 8 years ago
KRFournier
There are a handful of Christians on this site that could have made this an interesting debate. As it was, Con failed to debate. Instead, he simply asserted his position over and over. His only defense was ad hominem in nature, simply repeating that Pro was ignorant. Con, you can't just say Pro is ignorant and needs to read more. You have to refute Con's arguments using fallacy-free logic.

My vote: Conduct and Convincing Argument to Pro. Spelling/Grammar and Sources a tie.
Posted by GodSands 8 years ago
GodSands
"Can god make a rock too heavy to lift?" -- More sillyness, if you couldn't lift every rock you would not be a rulers of matter. God is the ruler over the universe. God exists in the defintion that nothing physical would enable God not to exist. By defintion God is the creator of all things, so what would stop God from existing? That is the bottom line.
Posted by Molokoplus 8 years ago
Molokoplus
woah, my arguments got way out of order for the last round. Sorry for any confusion lol.
9 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Vote Placed by greatstuff479 8 years ago
greatstuff479
MolokoplusEmfloTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Conor 8 years ago
Conor
MolokoplusEmfloTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 8 years ago
RoyLatham
MolokoplusEmfloTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:32 
Vote Placed by Icarus57 8 years ago
Icarus57
MolokoplusEmfloTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Coremeister13 8 years ago
Coremeister13
MolokoplusEmfloTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by sorc 8 years ago
sorc
MolokoplusEmfloTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Alex 8 years ago
Alex
MolokoplusEmfloTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by KRFournier 8 years ago
KRFournier
MolokoplusEmfloTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Vote Placed by asquitiro 8 years ago
asquitiro
MolokoplusEmfloTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70