The Instigator
batman01
Pro (for)
The Contender
JimShady
Con (against)

God does not exist (probably)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/13/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 868 times Debate No: 102594
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

batman01

Pro

This is a debate in which pro (me) has to prove that God does not exist (probably) where God is defined as

God: the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

The god does not necessarily have to be the Judeo-Christian god but must give some sort of moral direction (ie cannot be a god who has not seen or done anything since the beginning of time).

Thanks, I hope this will be a great debate.
JimShady

Con

Batman has put the Burden of Proof on his own shoulders, and has not said that I have to prove that God exists. I will try my best to do so, however. Still, if I can't, I do not automatically lose. Batman HAS to prove he does not exist, though.

I hope it'll be a great debate, too.

Plus, I agree with your definition if by supreme you mean God is Omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent.
Debate Round No. 1
batman01

Pro

Firstly, I'd disagree with your burden of proof assessment. I intentionally made the name of the debate 'God probably does not exist', and said "pro (me) has to prove that God does not exist (probably)" with the intent of keeping burden of proof shared. The way I see it, my goal is to make the reader believe that there is a probability of greater than 50% that god does not exist and my opponent's goal is to do the opposite. This does not matter greatly, the reader may decide what they will.



We have no evidence for the existence of god:

We have no evidence for the existence of god, making assuming god's existence an inherently anti-scientific claim. It is never a good idea to postulate the existence of something for which you have no evidence especially when the theorized thing offers little to no explanatory value and creates as many problems as it gives answers.

This is the position of religion. No evidence, no explanatory value, no answers; only questions. You can use your overly specific view of the universe to paint any picture you want but in the end there is no evidence for the god of Christianity, Islam, or any other religion that has ever existed.




The Universe does not need god to exist:

There is a massive amount of evidence which at this point suggests that the universe is able to create itself. This is true for several reasons.

Firstly, the amount of energy needed to create a universe is actually not that great. Due to the curvature of spacetime at and around the Planck epoch it only requires probably a couple of grams of matter to make a universe like the one we live in today (it's a little like making a big snowball by rolling a little snowball down a big hill). If you want to know more about this I would recommend researching Chaotic Inflation Theory.

Secondly, a small set of physical laws (like quantum fluctuations for example) would allow the spark to start the Big Bang and create all other physical laws. (http://www.space.com...)

Thirdly, there has now also been a mathematical proof that the universe could have spontaneously existed based upon solutions to the Wheeler-DeWitt Equation. See the paper below for more details: https://arxiv.org....

In other words we have no reason to assume that a god exists. Every argument which assumes that a god must exist, the Cosmological argument for example, can be better applied to the physical laws which can allow this universe.


In conclusion, the idea of a god is both unnecessary and illogical. We have no evidence of a god and considerable evidence that the universe can be created without a god.










JimShady

Con

Ok yeah, so as far as burden of proof goes, just do your best I guess, let the voter decide.

In this round I will be offering evidence that God does exist. Batman has said that there is no evidence, and while it is extremely rare, we have seen God reveal himself in the natural world from time to time. So first off, I'll be listing pieces of evidence that science has not explained because these events break the laws of physics and supersede the natural, going into supernatural. Second of all I'll be explaining why without God, the existence of the universe is impossible.

First off, miracles. I know from time to time, "miracles" turn out to be staged or they can later be explained by science, but there are some genuine instances when miracles go unexplained even years later, and MANY people have witnessed this event, not just one person. All of these are sourced at the end.

1. A statue of the Virgin Mary in Japan started weeping tears. This happened for 6 years and had 101 reported occasions. [1]
2. On the tilma of Juan Diego in 1531, the miraculous image of the Virgin Mary appeared it was studied with infrared rays and reported that image was painted in one step without sketches or paintbrush strokes. Also, it was found that the coloring used was not from a vegetable, mineral or animal source. Her pupils when amplified 2,500 times, reflect Native Americans and Franciscan monks. [1]
3.A vial of blood from Saint Januarius, an early Christian martyr, is contained in a Cathedral of Naples. People come and pray while the cardinal holds the vial of dried blood that liquefies. This has happened 18 times each year for the past 600 years. [1]
4. The stigmata, appearing on multiple saints on holy people, are injuries similar to the ones received by Christ on Calvary. They come out of nowhere and can heal almost instantly. [1]
5. Incorruptibility: Numerous saints and holy persons after they die do not decompose like people normally do. Some of their bodies are still on display and can still be flexible. Saint Bernadette, Saint Rita, and the Curare of Ares are just a few examples of this phenomena that's unexplained. [2]
6. Just rundown list- science has not explained the visions seen by people after they have died and cam back to life (and these visions are all of similar things), the too-coincidental-to-be-explained healings and cures at holy sights, and demonic possession and black magic/curses (which proves that the devil exists and so does God) (I may go into demonic stuff in detail later).

I could go on and on forever with this list... the number of miracles is way to big to put into my argument, but for now I hope this will do. I want Batman to explain with science what exactly happened in each of these, and if he can't, it does not necessarily PROVE that supernatural intervention is at work, but it definitely goes in favor of God. As science becomes more advanced, we can explain more about the natural world, but some things we are no closer to solving then we were thousands of years ago simply because they break the laws of the natural world.

For my second explanation, I want to cite the first and fourth argument of Saint Thomas Aquinas's Five Way's that can logically explain that God exists. It reads as this "In the world we can see that at least some things are changing. Whatever is changing is being changed by something else. If that by which it is changing is itself changed, then it too is being changed by something else. But this chain cannot be infinitely long, so there must be something that causes change without itself changing. This everyone understands to be God."

The 4th argument says "We see things in the world that vary in degrees of goodness, truth, nobility, etc. For example, sick animals and healthy animals, and well drawn circles as well as poorly drawn ones. But judging something as being "more" or "less" implies some standard against which it is being judged. Therefore, there is something which is goodness itself, and this everyone understands to be God."

So, the basic argument that something cannot come from nothing. I have read Batman's argument and he has cited quantum fluctuations as the source of existence. Interesting, and while this may be possible, God is still behind it. I'll be refuting that argument in the next round. Please counter my miracles and 1st and 4th ways in your next round. See ya.

Sources:
1. http://www.lifebuzz.com...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org...
3. https://en.wikipedia.org...(Aquinas)
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by kenballer 4 months ago
kenballer
@batman01

If reason and"the scientific evidence showed that the Judeo-Christian God existed and was morally perfect, would you pursue a relationship with him to obtain salvation?
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 8 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Sure there IS PROOF God exists ..... it lies within the realm of reality, probability and Factual truth!

Undeniable evidence#1 Man exists on Earth
Undeniable evidence #2 Man Could not have formed from infancy
Undeniable evidence#3 Man was created as an adult, male and female
undeniable evidence#4 man could not have formed from microbe or bacteria as man only comes from the egg of the female of the species and can only be fertilized by the male of the species.

Undeniable evidence#5 There is no evidence whatsoever that exists today that shows that anything microscopic such as microbes or bacteria have ever broached between microscopic life to a sentient Life form ie gnat, mosquito, dog, cat, whale .... all these come from egg from female of each species.

It stands to reason, logically, scientifically and absolutely that the whole of sentient Life, that is all things AWARE, and scientifically and absolutely proven to derive from egg deposited by an adult female of each species ONLY AND REQUIRED to be fertilized by and adult male of each species, more than infers a situation and circumstance of design beyond coincident and randomness. This infers intelligent design, therefore God or supreme being presence.

Otherwise why Life comes only from egg, why can't it just spring up from a bacteria or a microbe .... why MUST it come only from a egg to BE sentient Life?

For the other to be true ... the MUST have been a sentient Living creature CREATED IN evolutionary experimentation ...... there wasn't, isn't and never gonna be? All science ever did was CLAIM ... not a single sentient animal WAS created ..
So no proof of existence evolution actually exists? No evidence of abiogenesis EVER creating a Living sentient animal! There is no unknown creature Living that science created by ANY METHOD from nothing?

Be it placed here or formed here supernaturally MEANS existence of God since natural means are obviously impossible.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 8 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Sure there IS PROOF God exists ..... it lies within the realm of reality, probability and Factual truth!

Undeniable evidence#1 Man exists on Earth
Undeniable evidence #2 Man Could not have formed from infancy
Undeniable evidence#3 Man was created as an adult, male and female
undeniable evidence#4 man could not have formed from microbe or bacteria as man only comes from the egg of the female of the species and can only be fertilized by the male of the species.

Undeniable evidence#5 There is no evidence whatsoever that exists today that shows that anything microscopic such as microbes or bacteria have ever broached between microscopic life to a sentient Life form ie gnat, mosquito, dog, cat, whale .... all these come from egg from female of each species.

It stands to reason, logically, scientifically and absolutely that the whole of sentient Life, that is all things AWARE, and scientifically and absolutely proven to derive from egg deposited by an adult female of each species ONLY AND REQUIRED to be fertilized by and adult male of each species, more than infers a situation and circumstance of design beyond coincident and randomness. This infers intelligent design, therefore God or supreme being presence.

Otherwise why Life comes only from egg, why can't it just spring up from a bacteria or a microbe .... why MUST it come only from a egg to BE sentient Life?

For the other to be true ... the MUST have been a sentient Living creature CREATED IN evolutionary experimentation ...... there wasn't, isn't and never gonna be? All science ever did was CLAIM ... not a single sentient animal WAS created ..
So no proof of existence evolution actually exists? No evidence of abiogenesis EVER creating a Living sentient animal! There is no unknown creature Living that science created by ANY METHOD from nothing?

Be it placed here or formed here supernaturally MEANS existence of God since natural means are obviously impossible.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 8 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Sure there IS PROOF God exists ..... it lies within the realm of reality, probability and Factual truth!

Undeniable evidence#1 Man exists on Earth
Undeniable evidence #2 Man Could not have formed from infancy
Undeniable evidence#3 Man was created as an adult, male and female
undeniable evidence#4 man could not have formed from microbe or bacteria as man only comes from the egg of the female of the species and can only be fertilized by the male of the species.

Undeniable evidence#5 There is no evidence whatsoever that exists today that shows that anything microscopic such as microbes or bacteria have ever broached between microscopic life to a sentient Life form ie gnat, mosquito, dog, cat, whale .... all these come from egg from female of each species.

It stands to reason, logically, scientifically and absolutely that the whole of sentient Life, that is all things AWARE, and scientifically and absolutely proven to derive from egg deposited by an adult female of each species ONLY AND REQUIRED to be fertilized by and adult male of each species, more than infers a situation and circumstance of design beyond coincident and randomness. This infers intelligent design, therefore God or supreme being presence.

Otherwise why Life comes only from egg, why can't it just spring up from a bacteria or a microbe .... why MUST it come only from a egg to BE sentient Life?

For the other to be true ... the MUST have been a sentient Living creature CREATED IN evolutionary experimentation ...... there wasn't, isn't and never gonna be? All science ever did was CLAIM ... not a single sentient animal WAS created ..
So no proof of existence evolution actually exists? No evidence of abiogenesis EVER creating a Living sentient animal! There is no unknown creature Living that science created by ANY METHOD from nothing?

Be it placed here or formed here supernaturally MEANS existence of God since natural means are obviously impossible.
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