God does not exist
Debate Rounds (5)
Why I'm starting this debate:
I am an agnostic. I am pretty convinced that god doesn't exist, but I just want to be sure. I am initiating this debate in order to find someone (if this person exists) who has truly compelling evidence for the existence of God.
My current position on this topic:
If I wanted to believe in leprechauns, somebody would probably say, "How come I've never seen any?". I could respond to this by saying, "They are invisible to the naked eye and all technological sensors". I have just made my hypothesis unfalsifiable, meaning that they cannot disprove it, even if it is in fact wrong.
The statement "God exists" is unfalsifiable for the same reasons. I apologise for the use of leprechauns in my analogy, as that is a little demeaning, but I couldn't think of anything else. Anyways, before I choose whether or not to devote my life to a God or not, I would like completely irrefutable proof, not just the possibility that he exists.
Now here's the problem when it comes down to evidence. You're asking for evidence, but what evidence will you accept? We have 100s of prophecies, we historical statements, we have scientific statements, falsification tasks, protection against the Jinn (Ghosts/Djinn) and the most linguistic and literal book in the world to this day. I'm sure you would not believe if God could part the clouds and write Allah in the sky because that already happened and we could probably do it with our technology today anyways. You need to understand that God is part of the unseen and he has sent prophets like Moses and Jesus may peace be upon them.
You just can't compare God with leprechauns. It's widely accepted that leprechauns are just a myth. When it comes to God though, the majority of the human population believes in him and practically believes in some kind of divine entity. There's no proof or anything to suggest that leprechauns exist, this is not the case with God.
Thank you for accepting the debate.
With all kinds of things in society, once a thing gains popular belief, more and more people jump on the bandwagon simply because other people are, and the idea grows exponentially, regardless of its truthfulness or lack of it. The same thing applies to religions. As soon as one scholar had started writing about the miracles of somebody from a long time ago, all the others follow suit because they want to look like they know what they're doing. Also, if your counter argument to this is that the scholars who recorded the miracles of your religion weren't making things up or making mistakes, how can you claim that the scholars who recorded other religions were lying/making mistakes? Either you claim that the writers of the Torah and Bible were flawed people (which forces you to accept that your religion could have arisen from the same errors/fraud potentially), or you choose to deny that any writers of the time were flawed (forcing you to accept other religions' texts as truthful). I don't see a logical counter argument.
The prophet Muhammad SAW is clearly predicted in Isaiah 42 and Deuteronomy 18:18. Moreover John 14:16 confirms the coming of another prophet. Isaiah 42 even pinpoints to Arabia and then to Medina, it even confirms that this person is not Jesus AS throughout the chapter. Jesus AS also never mentioned in the Bible that he is the last and final messenger of God, in fact according to the Christians, a new prophet was supposed to come in the year 2,000. What about that now? I'm sure that evidence you want is literally seeing God, well then you'll have to go the Christians. They're the ones who claim that Jesus AS actually appears in front of them in a physical form. I mean our eyes can't handle the sight of the sun, so how would we be able to face our Lord?
The Qur'an literally means "that which is recited excessively", the Qur'an is the most recited word for the last 1,400 years. It is even more read statistically than the Bible and the Muslims are not the majority population. Imam Bayhaqi wrote a multivolume on why Muhammad SAW was a prophet of God and if you can proof that he's a prophet, ipso facto there must be a God. This argument that there is no God is not a new argument and our scholars have dealt with this argument extensively in a tradition called Rad-Al-Shubuhat, which is refutation of the obfuscations that are brought out by the atheists. We should know Allah SWT first through the intellect and our intellect is a spiritual concept, it's not of this world. The intellect is immaterial and this is why we don't know where we go when we dream, but we know that we leave this place and we enter into another realm.
A) There are miracles recorded in other religions that Islam denies.
B) Therefore, Islam accepts that sometimes people recording events lie or make mistakes.
C) Islam was recorded by mortal people just as capable of making mistakes (oral recitation is recording).
D) Therefore, Islam should accept the possibility that it may contain fabricated or incorrect material.
My earlier argument in round 2 was side stepped by way of you saying that Islam does contain a lot of miracles from other religions. However, I have reiterated what I meant in point A, which is that there must be some miracles that Islam doesn't accept, and this proves D by way of B and C.
A) Atheism is false because a religion is true
B) Atheism is false because existence can't come from non-existence.
So you have to decide, atheism is false or it is false. It doesn't work like that. You don't bring arguments like that, it's childish.
So what if we don't accept miracles from Hinduism, it works the same way. Accepting a belief will always deny another, no matter what you believe. 80% of Hinduism's followers live in India, so this is a religion is mostly believed simply because people come from India or countries around India. There are barely any Hindus in the rest of the world, I have a "Hindu" friend that doesn't believe in any of its stories. There's no reason to. What religion has over 330 million gods with only a million followers? You have Sikhism that is practically a mix of Hinduism and Islam, I don't see why you would mix those two religions together. The Sikh leader was not a prophet, he is seen as a religious reformer. Buddhism is not even a religion, it is a philosophy. Christianity is inconsistent with the Bible. Judaism has "chosen people" and you can't even be a real Jew without being born a Jew. So what's left? That's right Islam. I fail to see your argument because you're talking about the existence of God and you are bringing up different religions. Talk about Islam and Atheism and not any other religion with a few thousand followers.
Islam doesn't accept that the text is incorrect or contains incorrect materials. Why is that and how can we proof that?
The Qur'an clearly mentions that the Qur'an will be preserved. The Qu'ran we have today is the same word for word book. This book has been preserved, there is not a book like that. You throw all the Hindu texts, all the Torahs, all the Bibles and all the Qur'ans in a vault and no-one has access to these books. I tell you that as long as you have 2 people in the US or maybe in a small town in Kentucky somewhere that have memorised the whole Qur'an, you'll recover the whole book in 1 to 2 days. How easy is that to do for other books? It's incredible that even if you get rid of the physical books, it is still around. This book is such that when the pagan Arabs heard it was enough for them to embrace Islam because they knew that no man could have come up with words of such beauty, power and uniqueness. The Qur'an challenges mankind that if you believe that this book came from anyone else than Allah bring one chapter like it and they could never do it. Throughout history, people have attempted to write in the style of the Quran. The results have always been so laughable that no one would venture to say that he believes the effort equals the Quran in literary merit. The reason why no one would dare do so is not the fear of reprisal " as some skeptics have suggested " but rather the fear of looking like a complete idiot. One early example was:
Wa maa adaraaka mal-feel
Lahu dhanabun radheel, wa khurtoomun taweel
"which translates as:
What is the elephant?
And what would have you know what the elephant is?
It has a scraggly tail and a very long trunk.
This is madness, Musaylimah Al Kazzab tried to challenge the Qur'an, but he failed miserably and this challenge will remain until the Day of Judgement and no one will meet this challenge. In Surah Al-Baqarah there is a verse that says "This is how we made you a middle-nation", Al-Baqarah is made up of 286 verses and this verse occurs in verse 143. Remember, the Qur'an is recited and not documented because that came later on and yet look at the linguistic language and precision of the Qur'an. The Qur'an says about Muhammad SAW "We have elevated your status" and if you'd know the Athan you would know that we send a praise upon Muhammad SAW. There's not a minute that goes by in the world that there's not an Athan going on somewhere. Whose name is being elevated in that call? Muhammad's SAW name is mentioned every time we bear witness that Muhammad SAW is the final messenger of God and that he is not the one we worship, he is the one we obey because he is the one who received revelation.
The Qur'an describes how the mountains have roots, which has only been discovered recently. The continental mountains have roots and they help to stabilise the earth's surface. This is mentioned in the Qur'an in an-naba' verse 6 and 7. The Qur'an mentions that the moon has a reflected light in Surah Furqan 25:61. The Qur'an mentions that the earth is spherical in surah an-nazi'at verse 30. The Qur'an mentions that the universe is expanding in Adh-dhariyat verse 47. The Qur'an mentions how people have unique fingertips in Al-Qiyamah in verse 4. The Qur'an speaks about the water cycle in several verses, in Surah az-Zumar verses 21, in Surah ar-Rum verse 24, in Al-Hijr verse 22, in Al-Mu'minun verse 18, in an-Nur verse 43, in surah Rum verse 48, in surah Ahraf verse 17, in surah Furqan verse 48-49, in Surah Fathir verse 9, in surah Yaseen verse 34, in surah Mulk verse 30, in surah Thariq verse 11. There are so many verses that speak about the water cycle alone. The Qur'an describes the creation of the universe, how it was rend asunder from this Dukhaan, from the smoke and we know that the edges of universe are still echoing and expanding, as it is mentioned in ad-Dhariyaat. Surah Ta-Ha verse 53 mentions that the plants have sexes. Surah Fuqan verse 53 and surah ar-Rahman verse 17 mention sweet and salt water and that there is a barrier between them, it's talking about seas and we know that there is a barrier like it on earth. The Qur'an mentions that every living organism is made out of water in al-Anbiya verse 30. The Qur'an speaks about zoology in surah al-ankabutl verse 41, about the ant in surah an-naml verse 17-18, about the bee in surah an-nahl verses 66,68 and 69. The Qur'an speaks about embryology in Surah Alaq verse 1 and 2 and in al-Mu'minun verse 13 and 14. It has been confirmed by multiple embryologists that the embryology in the Qur'an could not have been know in the 7th century, professor Keith Leon Moore even said that the only reasonable conclusion was that the descriptions of embryology were revealed by God. Keith Moore the embryologist is not even a Muslim and he still admits it. Here's a video of him explaining the stages. https://www.youtube.com......
The Qur'an mentions "We sent iron down" in surah Al-Hadid 57:25. Scientists are saying that iron came from outer space and are not originally from earth. Allah SWT says "We created" for almost everything and yet look at this precision of the holy Qur'an.
In the beginning of the chapter the Roman; chapter 30, Allah SWT revealed it to prophet Muhammad SAW and he said to the Muslims that there were "win and lose" battles between the Romans and the Persians being the major powers. He said that the Romans will be defeated in the lowest point of earth and then within ten years they would be victorious again. Not only did the same thing happen, that the Persians defeated the Romans first and then the Romans had a major defeat over them, but then with the advent of satellite, satellites told us that the battle actually took place on the lowest point on earth. The lowest point on the face of the earth. It's exactly 418 meters below the sea surface and the location is there in Palestine today.
So what is your argument? That it's a fluke and just a coincidence?
Now if you're going to refute me I recommend not to use these 4 websites.
WikiIslam.net - since the front page literally says that anyone can edit this wiki
thereligionofpeace.com - Gives its own translations, removes words from translations, uses unauthentic Hadith and even lies on every level you can imagine
Answering-muslims.com and answering-islam.com - These are websites that are run by Christian apologists that claim that the earth is around 6,000 years old.
Muhammad SAW said that sexual promiscuity would be on the increase and that diseases would appear no-one has ever heard of. He said that religious knowledge would decrease and that speakers would be many, but the scholars would be few. Isn't this the case today? He said that women would be naked, even though they are dressed. The dress of some women today, where the clothes are so tight that they describe every shape of the body. This technology did not exist at the time of the Prophet SAW might I add. He said that the use of interest would be so common so much so that no-one would escape the dust of it, everyone would be affected by it. I think this is describing the world economy today. He said that rain would become burning or acidic, there would be acid rain. Towards the end of time you would see mountains with holes pierced through them. He said that a man would rather listen to his wife than listen to his mother, this is what we find today and he said that a man would rather listen to his friends than listen to his father, something contrary to the teachings of Islam. There are so many prophecies that have come true, I think that 50,000 characters would not be enough.
Anyways, enough scripture for now. It's clear that if a god exists that Islam is the true religion of God.
I've also presented that comprehensibility is immaterial and that not everything in this world is material. For example we are sure that ghost-like entities exist in this world, they're also immaterial. If you don't believe in these entities then that is your problem, but every single civilization on earth modern or ancient believes and believed in these spiritual entities and my religion completely explains these things in complete rationality.
Alright whatever, what created the universe?
There are four possibilities.
1. The universe was created out of nothing
2. The universe created itself
3. The universe was created by something created
4. The universe was created by something uncreated
Can something come from nothing? Off course not, so let's throw that out the window. You can't go ahead and make a car with absolutely nothing. If you have nothing and then add nothing you will get nothing, simple. So we can conclude that the universe can't be created from nothing.
Could the universe create itself? Can a mother give birth to herself? Can a being create itself with its own being. This is impossible.
Could the universe be created by something created? This is absurd because then we're back at the same question. So let's assume that creation was a creation of another creation . We'll have to go further than that though. Where did the other creation come from? Another creation? Okay and what did that creation come from? See this is a continuous loop and therefore if this was the case we would never exist. Now you're going to ask me the famous atheist question. Who created God? See God is by definition an uncreated God and if we're going to apply another definition we get the same continuous loop. Whatever the prophets tell us is what we accept. We don't accept the authority of anyone to make new arguments about Allah SWT, it doesn't work. We only accept what the prophets tell us.
Let me share you something from Surah at-Tur
33. Or do they say, "He has made it up"? Rather, they do not believe.
34. Then let them produce a statement like it, if they should be truthful.
35. Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?
36. Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather, they are not certain.
This is the case today. We are not even certain about our creation of the universe and yet it's explained right here.
People very often make the mistake of 'selective reporting'. I'm sure the prophets made a ton of other predictions that didn't come true, but nobody records those because they aren't exciting. People only record the really amazing prophesies that were lucky and turned out to be true. If you make tons of prophesies and just sweep the ones that went wrong under the rug when no one is looking, of course you will be left with what looks like too many true ones for it to be just probability.
Here I will address the part of your argument concerning the fact that people throughout history have believed in a God for a long time:
You can't believe something just because other people believed it. End of story.
Here I will address the part of your argument concerning that "comprehensibility is immaterial":
In round 2, I explained that you can't just make your hypothesis unfalsifiable with add-ons like 'Oh, but God transcends logic'.
Here I will address the part of your argument concerning the creation of the universe:
I have struggled with this issue for a long time. However, mathematical simulations of the Big Bang show that the laws of physics were very chaotic immediately after the universe's creation, and seeing as simple concepts like time and space were not yet fully formed, it is entirely possible that the universe could have caused it's own existence via time travel. Another possible explanation for the universe's creation without a God is this: it is though by many physicists that if string theory is correct, there may be many universes, and that they might (in however many billion years) join to make fewer universes or split to make more universes. It is thought that our universe might have been created by such a split.
Thank you for your time. I would like you to address each issue I have brought up separately in your response.
1. Rise (or Occultation in Shia belief) of the Mahdi.
2. The false messiah, Masih ad-Dajjal, shall appear as a creature with one eye good and the other blind, and the mark of Kafir. He will claim to hold keys to heaven and hell and lead many astray, although believers will not be deceived.
3. Medina will be deserted, with true believers going to follow Mahdi and sinners following Dajjal
4. Isa, or Jesus, shall return from the seventh sky to assist the Mahdi against Dajjal
5. Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj, two tribes of vicious beings which had been imprisoned will escape. They will ravage the earth, drink all its water, and destroy all life. Allah will then send worms and insects to destroy them.
6. The sun will rise from the west. At this point, it is useless for humans to want to atone for their sins. No-one can be forgiven for the sins he had done at this point.
7. The Beast of the Earth, or Dabbat al-ard, will populate the entire planet. The Beast will mark every people on earth based on their beliefs (believers or unbelievers)
8. The Qur'an will be taken to heaven and even the Hafiz will not recall its verses
9. A period of forty days through which smoke will envelop the world which will affect the believers as simple as flue but will be painful for nonbelievers
10. A pleasant breeze will blow from Yemen that will cause all believers to die peacefully, leaving the Earth with the wicked unbelievers
11.A short legged and thin ruler of Ethiopia will attack Mecca and destroy the Kaaba, and throw its stones to the sea
12. A first trumpet will sound, and all remaining humanity will die
13.A second trumpet will sound, the dead will return to life, and a fire will start from Hadramawt in Yemen that shall gather all people of the world in Mahshar for the Last Judgment
There's no prophecy that can't come true, prophecies are being fulfilled every year. Year by year and then that time will come when the sun will rise from the West.
I really don't understand what you mean by just because others believe something that you can't believe in it. There's no argument here. So should people make up their own religions? What's your argument? Would you and I know about Allah without a prophet? No, therefore we only accept what the prophets tell us about Allah.
I never told you that "God transcends logic.", I mean that you should at least acknowledge that the intellect is immaterial since many atheists think otherwise.
Regarding the creation of the universe.
Indeed the Big Bang was chaotic and so it's very unlikely that our universe was not created by a God-like entity. If you take a glass jar and smash it, never ever will you get 10 tiny swans created out of glass standing next to each other after impact, rather you would get glass pieces shattered everywhere without order. The same applies to the universe. We have so many hypotheses of the creation of the universe, it doesn't add up. For example you have agnostics and atheists that believe in a multiverse and yet there's no evidence for it.
Prophet Muhammad SAW is also mentioned throughout the Bible. For example in Isaiah 42.
Detailed explanation: http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com...
You can also refer to one of my other debates where I give clear evidence that Muhammad SAW is mentioned in the Bible. He's mentioned throughout the whole Bible and Torah and at one point he is mentioned by name in Song of Songs.
I have given enough evidence, you take it or you leave it.
When reason fails, the devil helps.
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