The Instigator
FishAndChips21
Pro (for)
The Contender
kenballer
Con (against)

God does not exist

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/7/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 677 times Debate No: 102487
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

FishAndChips21

Pro

To Clarify, I am arguing that God does NOT exist.
God - A Supreme being responsible for the formation of the universe and what occurs on Earth
Exist - Is not a figment of humanity's imagination; has objective reality or being

Rules

1.) Keep it civil; No trolling; No Harassing, etc.
2.) Con needs to provide solid evidence for the existence of God
3.) Do in-text citations, however, put the actual links at the end of the text
4.) Use RELIABLE sources (a source from a random blogger is not reliable, neither is a clearly biased website)
5.) Follow the structure of the debate
6.) No "K's"; focus on the debate topic
7.) No Forfeits, if you are going to accept, go through the entire debate, please
8.) No entirely new arguments in the last round (4th Round)

If these Rules are broken by Con (or me), they will automatically lose the debate


Structure

Round 1 - Acceptance Only; Put definitions if needed
Round 2 - Each Side puts their own argument. Since I go first, Con should NOT reply to my argument in Round 2. Doing so will result in an automatic loss.
Round 3 - Rebuttals; each side responds to the other
Round 4 - Closing arguments/statements; no new arguments



I thank my opponent in advance for accepting this debate and hope they will keep an open mind for I will
kenballer

Con

I am here to provide solid scientific evidence for the existence of God, which I define as a Personal /immaterial/ omnipotent/ omnipresent/ omniscient /eternal /necessary/ Second space-time dimension (i.e. spaceless timeless cause) who is the creator and sustainer of the Universe.

I am also curious to know whether my opponent would be interested in answering this question for me, but obviously does not have to.




If the Judeo-Christian God existed, would you pursue a relationship with him to obtain salvation?

Debate Round No. 1
FishAndChips21

Pro

1.) Obvious Lack of Evidence

This point is why I made the debate in the first place, I have hosted debates with the same topic an abundance of times. Yet, surprisingly, I get the same answer everytime of pure nothingness. I get the same argument every time of “Well, the universe just had to be made by God, it’s so big!”. The absence of evidence for one thing is not evidence for another, let’s use this simple analogy. Let’s say a cookie is missing (the missing cookie being the answer to the creation of the universe) and we have some suspects. Todd (God) as well as his 6 brothers (scientific theories). It sounds incredibly, and rightly, stupid if one says “well, we have no evidence that the 6 brothers took the cookie; therefore Todd must’ve taken the cookie!”. You would either have to directly prove that Todd/God took the cookie with solid evidence or disprove every single major scientific theory ambiguously with no doubts whatsoever. The latter is quite difficult to do since the Big Bang theory and its counterpart the Inflationary model are indeed quite hard to disprove due to their abundance of evidence (i.e Cosmic Microwave Background, the flatness of the universe, etc.), so I’m afraid your only choice to provide solid, direct evidence for the existence of God, which is why you accepted this debate… I hope.



2.) Imperfections

Now, as I understand it, God’s main purpose to it to provide a happy life for “good” human beings. Then, please, explain to me the unjust (inhumane to say the least) genocides that have taken place throughout the entirety of mankind. How can it be that millions of innocent Jews (estimates, on the lower side, include 6 million https://www.ushmm.org...) were slaughtered in the Holocaust along with Gypsies, homosexuals, disabled individuals, etc. ? Surely a God would have prevented something like this from happening? Surely I do not need to tell you the experiments Nazis conducted, the gigantic crematoriums, the starvation, the disease in these concentration camps? Here are just a few more genocides to stress my point slightly further


Armenian genocide (1915) - Over a million deaths

Cambodian genocide (1975) - 1.7-2 million deaths

Darfur (2003, you would think we would be civil by 2003?) - 300,000 dead; 2 million displaced

(http://endgenocide.org...)

Native American genocide - ??? (estimates range from millions to tens of millions) [1]


Then there is the bubonic plague (50 million people died; 60% of Europe’s population at that time [2] , smallpox, and all these diseases that also wiped out millions. Why would a loving God allow these diseases kill millions let alone exist in the first place?


Why is that babies die at birth (even in 2014 with our technology, 23,000 babies in the U.S alone died at birth? [3] Why is it that an estimated 48.9 million people, or 19.4% of the non-institutionalized civilians, have a disability? [4]

Why is that over 35% of the world’s population lack basic sanitation? (~ 2.5 Billion People; [5]

Why is that roughly 3 billion people live on less than $2.50 a day with roughly half (1.3 billion) living in extreme poverty (less than $1.25 per day)? [6]


Let's move on to imperfection about the universe. The Universe is insanely large; the observable universe alone is 13.8 Billion light years in diameter [7]

Here’s a simple analogy; imagine that our entire Solar system was shrunk to the size of a grain of sand. The Milky Way Galaxy, a galaxy with a rather mediocre size, would be the size of the continental United States. Now shrink the Milky Way Galaxy down to the size of a dinner plate, the observable universe would be the size of the continental United States. That’s insanely large for a universe meant only for human beings, considering that the majority of these places we won’t be able to visit since anything outside our cluster of galaxies is receding from us faster than LIGHT.

There are roughly 50 sextillion (50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) planets in our universe [8] you can’t expect to be “unique” from such vast of a number. Even if the probability that an Earth-like planets arises is something like .0000000000000001% there would still be about 50 or so Earth-like planets just like our own. Why would a God make a universe so big, knowing that we would never be able to explore practically none of it?


3.) Number of Religions

Why is your own religion, that you were most likely born into by sheer luck of being conceived by a particular family, the correct one out of 4,200? [9]

Why are there so many religions, each preaching the same thing; that they are the word of “God”? It’s simple really, God was a human invention with tremendous flaws, whether it be the Catholic church collecting money from indulgences [10]

or a religious cult getting people to commit mass suicide, why would individuals truly following the “word of God” do such atrocities directly contradicting their own religion? Humans need comfort; whether it be what comes after death or what the answers to the world’s most difficult questions are (such as with the Ancient Greeks, in which they used Gods and Goddesses to explain nature, weather, etc.). However, if everyone had this mentality, progression would be practically nonexistent, as it nearly was prior to the scientific revolution, in which great minds finally started to take a more secular approach and question the church, leading to some of history’s most substantial steps to a more modernized and civil society.


4.) The “Holy” Bible

Let's take this famous piece of holy writing which has, in my own humble opinion, singlehandedly brainwashed generations of ignorant individuals, conceived from their own ignorance. I would not be surprised to see my opponent use the Bible as evidence, in fact, I would in fact be surprised if he chose not to. However, I will show how the Bible is unreliable to the best of my abilities, although, it is quite undeniable if you look with an open mind as I have asked my opponent to do. Here I have listed 10 pages worth of contradictions, lies, injustices, etc. in the Bible that I have simply cherry picked from THOUSANDS. [https://docs.google.com...]

Let that sink in for a moment, if a scientific textbook has just one undeniable error; it is recalled and replaced with corrections. Yet a scientific textbook is far less important than the Bible! Why should the Bible, which people base their whole entire lives off of, be exempt from this? It shouldn’t! Thousands of errors, yet billions still choose to follow it due to their hammered in ignorance. Yet, I guess, as the saying goes, Ignorance is bliss. Here is a select few in case the reader does not want to go to the trouble of clicking the link.


GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time. GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin.I will now show why the Bible clearly can’t be used as evidence in a scientific debate. Here are a few self-contradictions

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness. GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

Some scientifically inaccurate information




The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite. 1:1-2:3

God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5

"I have given you every herb ... and every tree ... for meat."Since many plants have evolved poisons to protect against animals that would like to eat them, God's advice is more than a little reckless. Would you tell your children to go out in the garden and eat whatever plants they encounter? Of course not. But then, you are much nicer and smarter than God. 1:2


All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. 1:30


Here are some websites listing THOUSANDS of contradictions each https://infidels.org...


It is evidence, as you see, that the Bible is too unreliable to be used as evidence; even if just one out of the thousands were to be indeed a contradiction, it would still be too unreliable to be the “word of God himself”.

Sources:

[1] - http://americanhistory.oxfordre.com...

[2] - http://www.historytoday.com...

[3] - https://www.cdc.gov...

[4] - http://www.serviceandinclusion.org...

[5] -https://www.cdc.gov...

[6] - https://www.dosomething.org...

[7] - https://phys.org...

[8] - https://www.extremetech.com...

[9] - https://en.wikipedia.org...

[10] - https://www.britannica.com...





kenballer

Con

Observations


Origin of the Universe


Alan Guth along with Arvind Borde and Alexander Vilenken developed a singularity theorem and a inflationary theorem. If you combine the two theorems, they would mathematically prove that any universe that is on average in a state of cosmic expansion greater than 0 throughout its history cannot be infinite in the past, but must have a past space time boundary or singularity [1] [2]. Alexander Vilenken went a step further to explain in a different article why other attempts to demonstrate a past eternal universe are unsuccessful under classical physics [3]. Now, even though the BGV theorem only applies to general relativity and classical space-time, the law of entropy is a property of quantum physics along with classical physics, which means quantum physics would require a singularity theorem as well, as Aron C. Wall showed [4].



The God Hypothesis

Question: "What caused the Big bang?"


According to the law of causality, there are two different types of causal interactions in nature: antecedent causation and simultaneous causation. Antecedent causation is where every event precedes another event in time because they are material causes that operate under our classical space-time dimension. On the other hand, simultaneous causation is what only minds produce according to quantum physics where the cause exists with the effect inside the same event because it is an immaterial spaceless timeless cause creating material effects. However, an antecedent cause would not apply at the universe's beginning because Einstein's equations breakdown at that stage and time did not exist before it. Thus, only quantum physics can explain what happen at that point in time where it describes small scale phenomna that operates much differently than what we experience.


For example, according to quantum physics, abstract mathematical objects called "wave functions" are used to describe the location and the momentum of particles. This means that prior to what a scientist observes with an apparatus to discover the location and movement of a particle, the observer does not know nor can they predict where or when the particle will appear.

However, the double-slit experiment demonstrated that when a conscious observer decides to measure a quantum system with knowledge of a particular wave-function (i.e. Intentional states about abstract objects), particles appear and behave in a classical manner. Other experiments in quantum physics reinforce and fully demonstrate how the outcome of observed reality depends on the measurements at the time and cannot be predicted or determined prior to that [5]. In other words, what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision of what to measure.


Therefore, quantum physics proves that prior to observation or measurement objects do not have defined properties or location in classical space time. Instead, the act of a conscious observer creates the existence of the physical objects and the properties they entail instantly. This means that the first moment of the big bang would be the same moment this mind created or caused the universe to come into being.
Here is another way to describe what I am saying. Envision a pool game where you knock your white ball into the 8 ball, which eventually fell into a hole. The moment in which the white ball connected with the 8 ball was the same moment the 8 ball gained the power to move toward and eventually fall into the hole. Now, if you pretend the white ball was actually a spaceless timeless immaterial object that possesses mental causation, then this what I am suggesting happened for the origin of the universe.



However, human minds emerge from physical laws and are contingent upon living brains for their existence. Moreover, human brains impose limits on a person's power, knowledge and location. On the other hand, the mind in question would have to be eternal, necessary, and posses unlimited capabilities if it created the universe. Therefore, if my hypothesis is true, then we should find certain aspects of the universe that exemplify a being with unlimited power, knowledge, and presence. Before I provide this evidence, let me provide a scientific definition of this cause.

The definition of a second space-time dimension (i.e spaceless, timeless) is a moment of time without past or future, called the "now", where time and space either function much slower or are under a stationary mode of existence . Abstract mathematical objects (or digital information) are examples of entities that operate under a second space-time dimension and exist "necessarily" in all possible worlds. The conscious mind, which would encompass “personhood”, is also a second space-time dimension but has causal powers that can use abstract objects to create and manipulate matter and energy without any preexisting antecedent condition or cause. Thus, God would be a combination of these two examples.

Omni-potent, Omniscient and Omnipresence



Itzhak Bars, who is a physicist, crafted a model of the universe that merges both classical and quantum mechanics as well as particle physics. Moreover, it adds a second space-time dimension along with our classical space-time, and it includes the well accepted "holographic principle", which suggests that our 3 dimensional universe emerges from digital information processes. His model confirmed that there is a universal wave-function describing the totality of existence and exists within a second space-time dimension [6][7]. Moreover, it confirmed that matter and energy, ultimately, emerges from these wavefunctions that extend out to infinity because each one represents a different possible configuration of matter or a universe [8]. Now, let me further explain what I mean by this.

According to Eternal inflation, the expansion rate of the universe will continue to accelerate forever and create an endless amount of configured pocket universes within the black hole regions of our universe [9]. These small regions (i.e. gravitational waves) that are created by inflation have a background radiation that is nearly the exact same temperature as the background radiation of other regions where their space-time curvature is evolving lock-step with ours, but separating apart from each other in all directions [10]. This acceleration of the expansion from inflation is supposed to be produced from an explosion or collision of quantum fluncuations of particles called "dark energy" that permeate the entire universe where a billion (plus one) of positive particles and a billion of negative particles come into existence at once [11]. Then, they annihilate each other out of existence, and the leftover positive particle creates a smaller universe and accelerates the expansion of our universe in the process. Finally, these quantum fluncuations emerge from the universal wave-function, as I explained before.



Therefore, these observations demonstrate that this mind is causally active everywhere in the universe (i.e. omnipresent) and can create every possible world with infinite speed (i.e. omni-potent and omniscience). However, if this mind is a mix between a human mind and abstract objects, then there should be a purpose for creating our universe and it would need to exist in all possible worlds to carry out this purpose. This leads us to the next section.


Personal and Necessary


Since dark energy is consistent with general relativity and affects the expansion of the universe, then the cosmologic constant would apply to the smaller universes created within the regions of our universe as well. For example, the cosmological constant is placed at a precise measurement of 10 to the 120th power , and when scientists trace the expansion back one second after the Planck scale of our universe, the degree of precision becomes an astounding value of 10 to the 10 to the 123rd power [12].

Hypothetically, this means that if our universe’s expansion rate had different values with larger amounts of dark energy, the sample size of those universes created in the expansion that try to clump together to form planets and stars ,where life of any kind might evolve on (or evolve at all), would have most likely blown the cosmic material apart instead. If our universe’s expansion rate had different values with smaller amounts of dark energy, the sample size of those universes created in the expansion would have most likely collapse back into a singularity before it ever reached its present size [13].



[1] Arvind Borde, Alexander Vilenkin. Singularities in Inflationary Cosmology: A Review. Int.J.Mod.Phys. D5 (1996) 813-824

[2] Arvind Borde, Alan H. Guth, Alexander Vilenkin. Inflationary spacetimes are not pastcomplete. Phys.Rev.Lett. 90 (2003) 151301
[3] Audrey Mithani, Alexander Vilenkin. Did the universe have a beginning?. arXiv:1204.4658
[4] Aron C. Wall. The Generalized Second Law implies a Quantum Singularity Theorem. Class. Quantum Grav. 30, 165003 (2013)

[5] https://www.newscientist.com...
https://www.youtube.com...

[6] Itzhak Bars, Gauge Symmetry in Phase Space, Consequences for Physics and Spacetime, Int. J. Mod. Phys. A 25 (2010) 5235-5252, arXiv:1004.0688

[7] Ignacio J. Araya, Itzhak Bars. Generalized Dualities in 1T-Physics as Holographic Predictions from 2T-Physics. arXiv:1311.4205v2
https://www.youtube.com...

[8] Margalef-Bentabol, Berta; Margalef-Bentabol, Juan; Cepa, Jordi (8 February 2013). "Evolution of the cosmological horizons in a universe with countably infinitely many state equations". Journal of Cosmology and Astroparticle Physics. 015 2013 (02).
[9]
[10]

[11] Tim Schrabback et al. Evidence for the accelerated expansion of the Universe from weak lensing tomography with COSMOS. Astronomy & Astrophysics, 2010

[12] https://www.youtube.com...

[13] https://www.youtube.com...
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by FishAndChips21 1 year ago
FishAndChips21
Sorry I forgot to respond to your question.

If it was proved that he existed, despite the current lack of evidence, I would have no trouble "accepting him". I have nothing against the idea of God, rather it is an extraordinary claim that lacks the needed extraordinary evidence. Some "being" ruling over all of us is undeniably rather far-fetched when you truely think about it.
Posted by kenballer 1 year ago
kenballer
"backwardseden"

If the scientific evidenced showed that the Judeo-Christian God existed, would you pursue a relationship with him to obtain salvation?
Posted by kenballer 1 year ago
kenballer
"backwardseden"

If the scientific evidenced showed that the Judeo-Christian God existed, would you pursue a relationship with him to obtain salvation?
Posted by backwardseden 1 year ago
backwardseden
"Why is it that the Gideons are putting bible"s around in every hotel rooms when modern people cannot possibly reach the proper conclusions and cannot understand it? Why is it that you have to become an expert in dead languages and archeology in order to have any rational foundation to believe this? Because it doesn"t make sense with the model. Let"s imagine for a moment that I"m god and that I made the colossal list of errors that lead me to the point where I decided that the best solution to have a portion of me come down and take human form and be tortured and and be killed to serve as a substitute for other animal slaughter to make up for sins and then I spend a portion of a weekend dead and then I get to come back with me and be with me forever. Let"s set aside that makes any sense. If it did in fact happen and if it were IMPORTANT and it were the most IMPORTANT thing people could possibly question, if it were the most important thing people could EVER understand properly, WHY would I EVER allow all the originals to go away, no eyewitnesses, no authorship, no way to verify this information, no bible 2.0, no bible 3.0, and why doesn"t god show up and say "hang on a minute this is important, here"s what actually happened." None of that makes any sense. And whether or not there was a real person behind this one has to wonder if this makes any sense at all. Only an idiot, an idiot, would proceed with the most important question and not give sufficient evidence for it. And allow this issue to be debated for millennia and allow it to divide families and homes. This is a question of truth. In much the same way people are dismissive about conversation this past week "oh its just politics" no its not politics, it values, its about what kind of world you want to live in. Dismissing it as politics "well it doesn"t really matter what we know what jesus said." YES IT DOES!!! And the modern churches belf on what Paul said anyway." Matt Dillahunty
Posted by backwardseden 1 year ago
backwardseden
god does not physically exist. There's absolutely no proof that he does. It is entirely up to those who are religious to prove that this god character exists. No exceptions. None. After all how can anyone prove something that is unproved?
The bible is also proof of nothing. You can't say that words leap off of a page and are actual proof of something when something has never been proved. That's like saying that The Big Red Book and the Big Blue Book are actual truth's and they really have inner meaning and depth in the throws of ones burning life.
Also if there is this so-called proof that this god exists, then he would cause such media attention all over the world that all TV stations, newspapers, every single internet service with every single wire overload and all media outlets ever dreampt, they would be plastered with this god character 24/7 and again no exceptions, none. So why hasn't this happened? Its because god does not exist.
Yep and for those who think that they are smarter than the tumbleweed creationists, ask yourself this one instinctive question... why won't creationists put god on trial again? If they think that they are so smart they will never put god on trial again unless the big guy manages to show up in person. And the reason why creationists will not put god on trial again is because they are not stupid and they know that all they have before them is faith based oriented. And faith can never be proved.
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
The only intellectually honest answer is "everyone knows".
Posted by missmedic 1 year ago
missmedic
The only intellectually honest answer is "no one knows".
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