The Instigator
cody30228
Con (against)
Winning
38 Points
The Contender
Black.Nite17
Pro (for)
Losing
33 Points

God doesn't exist

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/23/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,931 times Debate No: 2142
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (19)
Votes (21)

 

cody30228

Con

You stated in a comment that you would debate anyone who said God does exist. So here is a debate. God exists. I have many reasons why, but I would like to hear why you think God doesn't exist.
Black.Nite17

Pro

Well to begin with id like to say thanks for challenging me to such a debate. I would like to say my arguement is directed towards christianity.

Ill begin with To prove the non-existence of god we first need to define the word "god". When christians talk about god they mean an almighty being.

but god literaly means:
"the supreme or ultimate reality: as a: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe"
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

***Sidenote(i think its important to think that if "god" existed it would at least be depicted as a women, naturally because women are the gender that give life.I believe that God is depicted as a man because back when religon was coming together, men were the dominant and were the leaders of society.)

After defining "god", its agreed that "god" must have the following qualities(please remember these as i will use them futher in the debate):
1*He must know everything. Everything that is, everything that has been and everything that will be. To be able to know everything that will be he must know every position and every momentum of every particle in cosmos.

2*He must be worth our worship. A being that is not worth worshipping is no god.

3*He must be able to do anything. If there are things that god can't do, he certainly is not omnipotent.

4*He must be above time. Something that even St. Augustine deduced. But not only that, god must stand above all possible dimensions.

5*He cannot be 'good' or 'evil' or, indeed, have any subjective characteristica. If god is all good, he cannot do evil things and cannot be almighty. Most people would object and say that good can do evil but chooses not to do it. Well, if god is all good he can't choose to do evil things, can he?

***The theodic´┐Ż problem

"We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume:
If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not "Satan" created the universe?"

There is a test that i believe will also prove to you whether "god" is exsistant, based on the ontological evidence against god, that you can do to try the existence of god. Pray, and ask god to provide you with a clear proof for his existence within a week. After that week, if you have got a proof that god exists, send me the evidence. If not, there are only three reasons I can think of that are plausible: (1) God does not exist, (2) God does not want to or (3) God can't give you this evidence. Because of the ontological evidence, alternative (2) and (3) are not worth your worship and thus they equal alternative (1). So if you get no response there is no god.

I think i will save some info for later in the debate, thank you again, i hope this debate is rigorous as well as enjoyable for both parties.
Debate Round No. 1
cody30228

Con

You make only one argument so far as to why God does not exist. You claim he can not be all good and all powerful.
Why does God have to be "good"? He is neutral. He creates good and evil, and gives man a choice. He wants man to choose good. But he is also fair. He has good intentions, but gives man the choice. Imagine the Fairness Doctrine. CNN wants to spout liberal rhetoric, but to be fair, they interview some conservatives.

You listed many claims of what God has to be, but you never say why he is not any of those. Since you are trying to prove God does not exist (not the other way around), you must prove why he does not meet these requirements. But here is a quick answer to why he matches them all.
The Bible.
Genesis story – God is all powerful, worth and worship, and evades time.
Revelations – God tells us the future (all knowing)

I don't have to pray to see a miracle that God exists. I am alive. The sun rises every morning. The grass grows every day. Rain can fall from the sky. Stars shine in the night sky. We take many of God's miracles for granted.

Here is one argument for my side.
Creation.
Where did man come from? Micro-organisms…Where did micro-organisms come from? Some soup thing…Where did the soup thing come from? The universe…Where did the universe come from? GOD!!!
Black.Nite17

Pro

I think this is a poor rebuttle but Ill try to work with it. And i believe my one piece of evidence will disprove anything you have said, but if not ill will correct it.

" Why does God have to be "good"? He is neutral. He creates good and evil, and gives man a choice. He wants man to choose good. But he is also fair. He has good intentions, but gives man the choice." - Cody

allright, you may have not have notcied this, but here you completely contradicted yourself here. First you say god is neutral. Then you say he wants man to choose good. That is not neutrality. Also saying he has good intensions violate this fact. And when i say it violates, i mean it violates the guidelines underwhich god must be. which you obviously agree with number 5(refer to opening arguement) when YOU yourself said he was neutral.

"You listed many claims of what God has to be, but you never say why he is not any of those. Since you are trying to prove God does not exist (not the other way around), you must prove why he does not meet these requirements."- Cody

Well you proved *5 for me in your rebuttle.

*1. Clearly states that "god" must know everything, and in knowing everything, he knew the holocaust would happen for example. and when the people that probly worshipped and prayed to him more than any other people on the planet, were being tortured and killed "he" did nothing. Really this would mean he as evil as hitler in a sense.

This proves *2 also in the fact where the jews prayed for "his" help, nothing happened for them. So is there a point in praying to god that will not help you, even though you dedicate your life to him and make him your almighty? So i declare "he" is not worth worshipping then. Which also makes NOT almighty if hes not worth worshipping because i hope its obvious that the only being worth worshipping is an "almighty".

**4 & *3 :I just remembered this and i had to sneak it in real quick. The bible describes that god created the universe and all its inhabinats in 6 days and rested on the seventh. first of all, If god can do anything(*3) then really whyd it take him 6 days? and why would an almighty god need to rest? Think about that. and as for *4. God must be above time, but if we "know" it took him 6 days then obviously he is not above time. And this also supports facts of bible being made my man, as no one could know about the creation unless "god" told them.

And ill say it again for your sake, If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil.

"But here is a quick answer to why he matches them all.
The Bible.
Genesis story – God is all powerful, worth and worship, and evades time.
Revelations – God tells us the future (all knowing)" -Cody

This is a very iggnorant thing to put my friend. The bible, in all forms printed published and even carved in stone are creations of man. "God" didnt bestow a book that he himself "the devine" wrote.

"I don't have to pray to see a miracle that God exists. I am alive. The sun rises every morning. The grass grows every day. Rain can fall from the sky. Stars shine in the night sky. We take many of God's miracles for granted."- Cody

This really really is poetic. I dont know, but i think science easily proves any of these things, they happen for a reason.

http://www.cotf.edu...

This is why your rain falls from the sky. Not god.

Here is one argument for my side.
Creation.
Where did man come from? Micro-organisms…Where did micro-organisms come from? Some soup thing…Where did the soup thing come from? The universe…Where did the universe come from? GOD!!!

Excuse me? Some soup thing? ill ignore that, but obviously you dont agree with the theory of evoloution? Well where in the bible does it walk about the dinosaurs? Or how about the ice age? That stuff isnt made up (like the bible, sorry couldnt help myself) And yet there is no description of it in the bible where it "describes god creating the universe in 7 days". Explain that to me, and please dont let your "faith" get in the way.

Ill leave you with this and i await your rebuttle.
Debate Round No. 2
cody30228

Con

It is very easy for someone, in this case God, be neutral but wish for good. In World War II, before America joined in, we obviously WANTED good to triumph over the Axis. We were neutral in our actions.

What many people claim about evil is that God must have condoned it. Let us consider things for a second. God, in the Old Testament tells the Jews that they will go through persecution. Furthermore, because of the Holocaust, Israel had a reason to be formed as a Jewish state.

As said above, He fulfilled His promise in the Old Testament to the Jews by creating Israel. You can not argue on the grounds that prayers are not answered. Many of my prayers have worked, and some have not. I might pray to win the lottery and not win it. Does that mean God is not worth worshipping? You really do not have much of a point here.

This is where I will try to combine science and religion. Some die-hard religious people believe that God created the universe in 6 human days. However, we can look at a combination of this and the Big Bang. God creates universe and all in 6 "days". Or, he created the universe in some LONG period of time that follows the principles of the Big Bang. God maybe set the whole thing in motion and let it follow it's natural course. The Sabbath (7th day) refers to the seventh day of the week. Or Sunday. The day of rest. The story in Genesis is a paradigm for the Jewish calendar. Work for 6 days. Rest on the seventh.

Let us look at an example of humans. I have a gun. I point it at someone. I have the power to kill someone, but I don't. I have the power but don't use it. Let us look at another example of humans. If you were a parent and had a child, would you let the child never come to any harm? Would you not let the child learn for him or her self? Why is it impossible for God to wants us to choose, and then let us choose, even if that choice harms us?
.
You stress that God is all powerful. Since He is, do you honestly believe that He would allow the way for man to learn be flawed?

We can use science to explain many things, but not all things. What gives water the property to change states of matter? Why can't clouds hang on to the water forever? Why does the sun have the ability to evaporate water? These are all miracles from God.

This is a very weak argument if I may say so. Does the story of Genesis claim, God created a rock. And He created a apple tree. And He created fire ants….No! Just because the book of Genesis does not say every individual and event he created means nothing.
*****The ONLY explanation for the creation of the universe is God. Until you pose an alternative we must assume that God exists.
Black.Nite17

Pro

"It is very easy for someone, in this case God, be neutral but wish for good. In World War II, before America joined in, we obviously WANTED good to triumph over the Axis. We were neutral in our actions."- Cody

Im sorry to say but your not getting the point. To favor good is not to be neutral. Get it and understand it. In WWII we were physically neutral as in we didnt fight for anyone, but we wanted the british to win because we believed there cause was right and hitler was evil.

"What many people claim about evil is that God must have condoned it. Let us consider things for a second. God, in the Old Testament tells the Jews that they will go through persecution. Furthermore, because of the Holocaust, Israel had a reason to be formed as a Jewish state."- Cody

What people claim is true. If such a god existed and and such a god created man and man comits evil than god must be evil logically. As for the second part, please explain yourself because i see no point.

"As said above, He fulfilled His promise in the Old Testament to the Jews by creating Israel. You can not argue on the grounds that prayers are not answered. Many of my prayers have worked, and some have not. I might pray to win the lottery and not win it. Does that mean God is not worth worshipping? You really do not have much of a point here."- Cody

So your saying that god will help those that deserve it? i must say you dont have much point. So the people that pray for their sons/daughters with cancer to be healed, theyll get their prayers answered? Praying doesnt cure illnesses, science and medicine does.

"The Sabbath (7th day) refers to the seventh day of the week. Or Sunday. The day of rest. The story in Genesis is a paradigm for the Jewish calendar. Work for 6 days. Rest on the seventh."- Cody

This helps prove that the bible is a product of man and god really has no existince. Because they are refering to the jewish calendar, which came after "Creation". This was a way to help control peoples lives and to give people a reason to rest in the older days.

"Let us look at an example of humans. I have a gun. I point it at someone. I have the power to kill someone, but I don't. I have the power but don't use it. Let us look at another example of humans. If you were a parent and had a child, would you let the child never come to any harm? Would you not let the child learn for him or her self? Why is it impossible for God to wants us to choose, and then let us choose, even if that choice harms us?" -Cody

Ok so your first example means nothing. God is not a someone holding a gun to the people of earth and just not choosing to shoot. this doesnt help your case. Explain if you think it does. This is a true method of parenting. but tell me this. would you let your child run around with a gun so that he would learn on his own that he will hurt someone? Iggnorance.

"You stress that God is all powerful. Since He is, do you honestly believe that He would allow the way for man to learn be flawed?"- Cody

If god was all-powerful, why not create a perfect world for his "children"?

"We can use science to explain many things, but not all things. What gives water the property to change states of matter? Why can't clouds hang on to the water forever? Why does the sun have the ability to evaporate water? These are all miracles from God."- Cody

This is iggnorant. All of these things are easily solved by science. Wow i just cant believe you saying stuff like that thinking it proves god.

"This is a very weak argument if I may say so. Does the story of Genesis claim, God created a rock. And He created a apple tree. And He created fire ants….No! Just because the book of Genesis does not say every individual and event he created means nothing.
*****The ONLY explanation for the creation of the universe is God. Until you pose an alternative we must assume that God exists."- Cody

It really makes me feel for you when you believe that the only explanation for everything is god. You say my side of the arguement is weak yet, you cant prove or at least put down a citation that somewhat clarifies what you are trying to prove. Your answer i believe for anything i say will be god is the answer. Which is false and i believe will not help when voting comes.
Debate Round No. 3
cody30228

Con

cody30228 forfeited this round.
Black.Nite17

Pro

Obviously my opponet has no responses to my rebuttle. He has been on numerous times with plenty of oppritunities to respond. I regret he had nothing else to say and it was a good debate.
Debate Round No. 4
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by brokenboy 5 years ago
brokenboy
dont try and tell me that he was a crazy guy who just happend to lucky he was a true genius and it takes a true genius to see that God, Allah, Brahimn, any other name for the one true being is real.
Posted by brokenboy 5 years ago
brokenboy
Albert Einstein
Posted by brokenboy 5 years ago
brokenboy
The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil.A student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?""What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Absolute zero is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat.The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"The professor responded, "Of course it does".The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light. You cannot measure darkness. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold or the darkness
Posted by Black.Nite17 9 years ago
Black.Nite17
oops wrong debate...my bad...sorry for the confusion
Posted by Undeniable-Love 9 years ago
Undeniable-Love
????? what are you talking about?
Posted by Black.Nite17 9 years ago
Black.Nite17
O thnx,lol Honestly some people just vote based on opinion and it bugs me. opinion in the debate, not who debated better. but o well.
Posted by Sherlock_HolmesXXI 9 years ago
Sherlock_HolmesXXI
Ah, sry, its an inside joke about cody in our school's debate team.
Posted by Black.Nite17 9 years ago
Black.Nite17
Yea who is frenchy i was just wondered that?
Posted by Undeniable-Love 9 years ago
Undeniable-Love
??????????? What? I don't get it, who's Frenchy?
Posted by Sherlock_HolmesXXI 9 years ago
Sherlock_HolmesXXI
WHOOO!!! Go Frenchy!!!

(Your comments must be at least 25 characters in length.)

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