The Instigator
MilitaryAtheist
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Billdekel
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

God existence.

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Post Voting Period
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It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/27/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 883 times Debate No: 25316
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

MilitaryAtheist

Con

God is the deity of Abrahamic properties (All-powerful , all-seeing/all-knowing and benevolent.)The burden of proof rests mostly on Pro.
RULES
1. No fallacies
2. Forfeit=7 point loss.
3. No semantics.
4. My opponent begins R1, but must also accept my terms and rules
Billdekel

Pro

Hello MilitaryAtheist
I accept the rules and terms and I will now begin R1 by presenting my case on why the Christian God Exists.

First off I would like to ask Con a question

Atheism is an intellectual position. What reasons do you have for holding the position of Atheism? Are your reasons are based upon logic and/or evidence or lack of it. So, is there any reason/evidence for you holding your position that you defend?

What evidence is there for God?

Logic

How do you account for the laws of logic in a universe without God? The laws of logic are conceptual by nature and absolute. Being absolute, they transcend space and time. They are not the properties of the physical universe (since they are conceptual) or of people (since people contradict each other, which would mean they weren't absolute). So, how do you account for them?

Examples of logical absolutes are: something cannot be itself and not itself at the same time (Law of non-contradiction). A thing is what it is (Law of identity). A statement is either true or false (Law of excluded middle). These are simple, absolute logical absolutes.

The laws of logic are conceptual by nature and are always true all the time everywhere. They are not physical properties. How do atheists account for them from an atheist perspective?

The Universe

The universe exists. Is it eternal or did it have a beginning? It could not be eternal since that would mean that an infinite amount of time had to be crossed to get to the present. But, you cannot cross an infinite amount of time (otherwise it wouldn't be infinite). The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy). This has not occurred. Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old. Therefore, the universe had a beginning. Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence.

What brought the universe into existence? It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it. The Bible promotes this sufficient cause as God. What does atheism offer instead of God? If nothing, then atheism is not able to account for our own existence.

Prophecy

Though there are other religions that have prophecies in them, none are 100% accurate as is the Bible, and none of them point to someone like Jesus who made incredible claims and performed incredible deeds. The Old Testament was written hundreds of years before Jesus was born, yet the Old Testament prophesied many things about Jesus. This is undoubtedly evidence of divine influence upon the Bible.

The odds of Jesus fulfilling 48 of the 61 major prophecies concerning Him are 1 in 10157; that is a one with 157 zeros behind it. By comparison, the estimated number of electrons in the entire known universe is about 1079; that is a one with 79 zeros behind it.

Virgin birth prophecy

Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
Note: the Jews who translated the Septuagint (Greek Translation of the Hebrew Old Testament) translated Isaiah 7:14 as the word virgin, not young maiden.
Matt. 1:18,25, "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary...was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit... But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

Born in Bethlehem

Micah 5:2, "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
Matt. 2:1, "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem."

Preceded by a messenger

Isaiah 40:3, "A voice of one calling: 'In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.'"
Matt. 3:1-2, "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.'"

Side pierced

Zech. 12:10, "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one mourns for an only son."
John 19:34, "Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water."

Crucifixion

Psalm 22:16-18, "a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing."
Luke 23:33, "When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals -- one on his right, the other on his left."
John 19:33, "But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs."
John 19:23-24, "When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes..they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it." This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, "They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." So this is what the soldiers did."

Scientific Accuracies in the Bible
The spherical shape of the earth (Isaiah 40:22).
The earth is suspended in nothing (Job. 26:7).
The existence of valleys in the seas (2 Sam. 22:16).
The existence of springs and fountains in the sea (Gen.7:11; 8:2; Prov. 8:28).
The existence of water paths (ocean currents) in the seas (Psalm 8:8).
The water cycle (Job. 26:8; 36:27-28; 37:16; 38:25-27; Ps. 135:7; Ecc. 1:6-7).

Why should anyone trust in Christianity? It is because there are absolute truths. Only in Christianity are there accurately fulfilled prophecies of a coming Messiah. Only in Christianity do we have the extremely accurate transmission of the eyewitness documents (gospels), so we can trust what was originally written. Only in Christianity do we have the person of Christ who claimed to be God, performed many miracles to prove His claim of divinity, who died and rose from the dead, and who said that He alone was the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6). All this adds to the legitimacy and credibility of Christianity above all other religions -- all based on the person of Jesus. It could not be that Jesus is the only Truth, and other religions also be the truth.

Either Jesus is true and all other religions are false, or other religions are true and Jesus is false. There are no other options. I choose to follow the risen Lord Jesus.
Debate Round No. 1
MilitaryAtheist

Con

How do you account for the laws of logic in a universe without God? The laws of logic are conceptual by nature and absolute. Being absolute, they transcend space and time. They are not the properties of the physical universe (since they are conceptual) or of people (since people contradict each other, which would mean they weren't absolute). So, how do you account for them?


I don't see how this proves God. I believe this is argument from ignorance. Something unlikely? Must be God.


What does atheism offer instead of God? If nothing, then atheism is not able to account for our own existence.



Not what atheism is about.


The universe exists. Is it eternal or did it have a beginning? It could not be eternal since that would mean that an infinite amount of time had to be crossed to get to the present.

No.

The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy).

Energy can't be destoried.

This has not occurred. Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old. Therefore, the universe had a beginning. Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence.


And what brought 'it' into existance? Something more powerful you say?

Almost all of Pro's arguments are invaild and will ask for better ones.

The rest of your round is a pot of fallacies. There is no need for me to rebut them.
Billdekel

Pro

First off Con seems to Ignore the question I asked him at the beginning of my post. Let's continue,but I hope Con will get to it on R2

I don't see how this proves God. I believe this is argument from ignorance. Something unlikely? Must be God.

No this is not an appeal to ignorance. Lets get into a little more detail

The laws of logic are conceptual by nature and absolute. Being absolute, they transcend space and time. They are not the properties of the physical universe (since they are conceptual) or of people (since people contradict each other, which would mean they weren't absolute).

Thoughts reflect the mind


  1. A person's thoughts are the product of that person's mind.
  2. A mind that is irrational, will produce irrational thoughts.
  3. A mind that is rational, will produce rational thoughts.
  4. It seems fair to say that an absolutely perfect mind would produce perfect thoughts.Since the Logical Absolutes are transcendent, absolute, are perfectly consistent, and are independent of the universe, then it seems proper to say that they reflect a transcendent, absolute, perfect, and independent mind.
  5. We call this transcendent, absolute, perfect, and independent mind God since a physical brain is not transcendent by nature because it is limited to physical space, and God is, by definition, transcendent in nature.



Unless of course Atheism can account for these laws of logic somehow without a transcendent,absolute,perfect and independent mind behind these thoughts.

Not what atheism is about.

It maybe true that atheism is not directly about accounting for existence,but if atheism does not have anything to give or can find to account for it the statement is true.

No.

Im sorry but....... Is this really a rebuttal? Just stating "No" has no empirical base to it.

Energy can't be destoried.

True energy cannot be destroyed yet it can be used up (entropy as I said)

"The idea of heat death stems from the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy tends to increase in an isolated system. If the universe lasts for a sufficient time, it will asymptotically approach a state where all energy is evenly distributed."[1]

"Thus, the fact that the entropy of the universe is steadily increasing, means that its total energy is becoming less useful: eventually, this will lead to the "heat death of the Universe"."[2]

Scientists agree the universe had a beginning and is not eternal

"Scientists generally agree that "the Big Bang" birthed the universe about 15 billion years ago." [3]

"Many once believed that the universe had no beginning or end and was truly infinite. Through the inception of the Big Bang theory, however, no longer could the universe be considered infinite. The universe was forced to take on the properties of a finite phenomenon, possessing a history and a beginning."[4]

"The universe cannot be infinitely large or infinitely old (it evolves in time)."[5]

And what brought 'it' into existance? Something more powerful you say?

You cannot have an infinite regression of causes (otherwise an infinity of time has been crossed which is impossible because an infinity cannot be crossed).
Therefore, logically, there must be a single uncaused cause that did not come into existence.

The answer is that by definition He is not created; He is eternal. He is the One who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God is the one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him.

Almost all of Pro's arguments are invaild and will ask for better ones.

Saying they're invalid does not make it so, you must demonstrate why

The rest of your round is a pot of fallacies. There is no need for me to rebut them.

Again saying it does not make it so. Taking into account that the odds of Jesus fulfilling 48 of the 61 major prophecies concerning Him are 1 in 10^157 and the scientific foreknowledge in the bible are not fallacys

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[3] Tom Parisi, Northern Illinois University http://www.niu.edu...
[4] Chris LaRocco and Blair Rothstein, University of Michigan http://www.umich.edu...
[5] Nilakshi Veerabathina, Georgia State University http://www.chara.gsu.edu...
Debate Round No. 2
MilitaryAtheist

Con

Unless of course Atheism can account for these laws of logic somehow without a transcendent,absolute,perfect and independent mind behind these thoughts.


I dont have to explain it. That is not what Atheism is about.


Atheism=/= Science

Science=/=Atheism


It maybe true that atheism is not directly about accounting for existence,but if atheism does not have anything to give or can find to account for it the statement is true.

No agian.


http://en.wikipedia.org...


Either God made the Universe or there is no God.


How do you know it wasn't 154 Gods that made everything? You are making false claims.



Im sorry but....... Is this really a rebuttal? Just stating "No" has no empirical base to it.

What you said has no value in proving God.


True energy cannot be destroyed yet it can be used up (entropy as I said)

It can come back. Besides, the Big Bang was said to have a never ending supply of energy. Still, not proving God.


Scientists agree the universe had a beginning and is not eternal


Yes. The Big Bang created the Universe in its current form. The Big Bang did not create it.

Therefore, logically, there must be a single uncaused cause that did not come into existence.


Hey! That's odd! Wow. It is plently better to believe in a God that created himself then a lifeless world. I assume you prove it was God?

The answer is that by definition He is not created; He is eternal.

Didn't you say you can't have a eternal something?


He is the One who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God is the one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him.


This assumes he was real. It doesn't prove him in anyway.

Saying they're invalid does not make it so, you must demonstrate why.


I believe I did. I said they are fallacies. It is quite clear of the fallacies of which they are.

Again saying it does not make it so. Taking into account that the odds of Jesus fulfilling 48 of the 61 major prophecies concerning Him are 1 in 10^157 and the scientific foreknowledge in the bible are not fallacys

Apophenia. Prove the Bible. Without God.



I will say it again. Almost ALL of Pro's rebuttals are fallaices.


VOTE MA
Billdekel

Pro

I dont have to explain it. That is not what Atheism is about.
Then what's atheism exactly about? I can present arguments all day,but you can just keep moving the goalpost claiming "atheism isn't about that".
I have proved that logical absolutes reflect a perfect transcendent mind. You've yet to respond to this,the arguments still stands
how do you know it wasn't 154 Gods that made everything? You are making false claims.
if I prove the bible divine,its logically consistent that no other god's exist other than the Christian God
What you said has no value in proving God.
Straw man. I was not trying to prove god with that statement, I was presenting an argument against an eternal universe
It can come back. Besides, the Big Bang was said to have a never ending supply of energy. Still, not proving God
Yet another straw man, I wasn't trying to prove God but show you what entropy is. It is a multi stage argument you cannot just pick one stage going up to it and claim it doesn't prove God.

You haven't presented any sources. All the sources I gave showed that the universe cannot have an ending supply of energy. You ignore the sources committing the card stacking fallacy.
Hey! That's odd! Wow. It is plently better to believe in a God that created himself then a lifeless world. I assume you prove it was God?
Straw man again, I never said God created himself.
Didn't you say you can't have a eternal something?
Wow, Yet another straw man
I said the universe cannot be eternal not "something"
This assumes he was real. It doesn't prove him in anyway.
The question itself assumes he is real "what brought "it" into existence". How many straw men are you going to make? I was responding to your question not trying to prove God
I believe I did. I said they are fallacies. It is quite clear of the fallacies of which they are.
That is circular logic, You're demonstrating my arguments are fallacies because you said they are fallacies.
Apophenia. Prove the Bible. Without God.

You have not touched upon the scientific facts I posted.

The Bible is its unique authority and power. While this evidence is more subjective than the first two, it is no less a powerful testimony of the divine origin of the Bible. The Bible’s authority is unlike any other book ever written. This authority and power are best seen in the way countless lives have been transformed by the supernatural power of God’s Word. Drug addicts have been cured by it, homosexuals set free by it, derelicts and deadbeats transformed by it, hardened criminals reformed by it, sinners rebuked by it, and hate turned to love by it. The Bible does possess a dynamic and transforming power that is only possible because it is truly God’s Word.

Look at the indestructibility of the Bible. Because of its importance and its claim to be the very Word of God, the Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history. From early Roman Emperors like Diocletian, and through communist dictators, the Bible has withstood and outlasted all of its attackers and is still today the most widely published book in the world. You just cannot keep it down
Look at the fulfilled prophecy such as

Prophecy:Babylon would rule Judah for 70 years
Bible prophecy: Jeremiah 25:11-12
Prophecy written: Sometime in 626
Prophecy fulfilled: About 609 BC to 539 BC

In Jeremiah 25:11-12, the prophet said that the Jews would suffer 70 years of Babylonian domination. Jeremiah also said Babylon would be punished after the 70 years. Both parts of this prophecy were fulfilled. In 609 BC, which is about 2600 years ago, Babylon captured the last Assyrian king and ruled over a vast part of what had been the Assyrian empire, to which the land of Israel previously had been subjugated. Babylon later asserted its dominance by taking many Jews as captives to Babylon, and by destroying Jerusalem and the Temple. The domination ended in 539 BC, when Cyrus, a leader of Persians and Medes, conquered Babylon and brought an end to its empire. Cyrus later offered the captive Jews the freedom to return to their homeland

Prophecy:The people of Israel will never be completely destroyed
Bible prophecy: Leviticus 26:44
Prophecy written: As early as 1400 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: Throughout history

In Leviticus 26:44, the Bible said that God would never allow the people of Israel to be completely destroyed.

During ancient times, 10 of the 12 Tribes of Israel were decimated by the Assyrians. And the Babylonians later persecuted what was left of the people of Israel. But, instead of assimilating or perishing, some of the people eventually returned to their homeland and recover their way of life.

The recovery was very complete, complete enough that Jerusalem again had been restored as the center of Jewish life. And the followers of Jesus were able to begin a process in Jerusalem by which Christianity would later spread in the world.

Prophecy:Jesus prophesied that the Temple would be destroyed
Bible prophecy: Matthew 24:1-2
Prophecy written: During the first century
Prophecy fulfilled: 70 AD

In Matthew 24:1-2, Jesus prophesied that the Temple of Jerusalem would be destroyed and that its destruction would be so complete that not one stone would be left standing on top of another. His prophecy was fulfilled about 40 years later when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and tore down the Temple. The destruction was so complete that even the foundations of the Temple were dug up, according to Josephus, an historian who wrote about the destruction.

Prophecy:Daniel foretold the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple
Bible prophecy: Daniel 9:24-26
Prophecy written: About 530 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: 70 AD

During the time of Daniel, who lived about 2600 years ago, the Babylonians invaded Judah (the southern part of the land of Israel) and took many Jews, including Daniel, as captives to Babylon.

The Babylonians also destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the Temple, in 586 B.C.

In Daniel 9:24-26, Daniel delivers a prophecy that Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed, again. Within these verses, Daniel provides a chronology by which certain events would occur. First, the Jews would return from captivity and rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. Afterwards,an "anointed one," or Messiah, would appear, but he would be rejected. Then, Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed, again.
These events later played out during the century in which Jesus had announced that he was the Messiah

Scientific Accuracies in the Bible
The spherical shape of the earth (Isaiah 40:22).
The earth is suspended in nothing (Job. 26:7).
The existence of valleys in the seas (2 Sam. 22:16).
The existence of springs and fountains in the sea (Gen.7:11; 8:2; Prov. 8:28).
The existence of water paths (ocean currents) in the seas (Psalm 8:8).
The water cycle (Job. 26:8; 36:27-28; 37:16; 38:25-27; Ps. 135:7; Ecc. 1:6-7).
The existence of black holes Jude1:13; Isa50:3
Light travels in a path Job 38:19

Light is said to have a “way” [Hebrew: derek, literally a traveled path or road]. Until the 17th century it was believed that light was transmitted instantaneously. We now know that light is a form of energy that travels at ~186,000 miles per second in a straight line. Indeed, there is a “way” of light.

Air has weight Job 28:25

It was once thought that air was weightless. Yet 4,000 years ago Job declared that God established “a weight for the wind.” In recent years, meteorologists have calculated that the average thunderstorm holds thousands of tons of rain. To carry this load, air must have mass.


I will say it again. Almost ALL of Pro's rebuttals are fallaices.

VOTE MA

I would encourage people to vote based off of who makes the best rebuttals and arguments
You've committed many straw men fallacies in R3.
You've failed to rebut the Logical absolute argument,Entropy argument and scientific knowledge argument.
You still haven't answered the question I asked at the beginning
You use circular logic to claim my arguments are fallacies.

Debate Round No. 3
MilitaryAtheist

Con

I grow sick of this.

first bold 'rebuttal'-
I am not moving the goalpost. Atheism is the "the lack of a belief in a god". No where does it say anything about science. Bill and Jill might both be atheists, but they might differ of how we were created.

2nd bold-

You have yet to do so. You are using circular reasoning. God is real because the bible says so. The bible is valid because God wrote it.

3rd rebuttal.-

Exactly. This was a Red Herring.

4th -

OK. So Allah created the universe. Prove me wrong. I don't know how many times I have to say this: IT DOESN'T PROVE GOD.

5th-

So God was not created and he didn't create himself? I didn't strawman. I just asked you about the only other reason. God also was around forever. Remember the time thing? It doesn't apply to God cuz he is God! SPECIAL PLEADING. I AM ANSWERING YOU.

Ok. Can you prove it? I seen some people have drug issues cured by a dream where the Flying Spaghetti Monster visited the druggie, but that doesn't impress you does it? Even FALSE THINGS CAN CURE. THIS IS IN CAPS TO MAKE SURE YOU SEE IT.

Last rebuttal.-

Ok. You said it your self. All of them weren't related to God. This is a fallacy of tying with Science, where one trys to prove God with unrelated science. The strawman weren't strawman and I made it clear that your arguments are invalid. I don't have to rebut invalid arguments.

VOTE MA. FOR THE VERY CLEAR REASON
Billdekel

Pro

Billdekel forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
MilitaryAtheist

Con

All points to me.
Billdekel

Pro

Sorry, I was busy and had no time for debate.org the last few days.

Con didn't refute any argument I made. In the last round Con basically repeated himself. Look back at my first post, Con evaded the question I asked him at the beginning and he also evaded the Argument from Logic.

May the voting begin!
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by ishallannoyyo 4 years ago
ishallannoyyo
A lot of billdekel's stuff is based on the assumption that Jesus existed and the miracles happened. But of course, since somebody wrote it in a book thousands and thousands of years ago it must be true!
Posted by ishallannoyyo 4 years ago
ishallannoyyo
MA, you should change your name to just A.
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