The Instigator
andrewkletzien
Con (against)
Winning
60 Points
The Contender
Dale.G
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

God exists.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 9 votes the winner is...
andrewkletzien
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/16/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,521 times Debate No: 29281
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (29)
Votes (9)

 

andrewkletzien

Con

Dale.G has been gracious enough to include in his profile that he is willing to debate anyone who does not believe in god, so in return I propose this debate.

Ground rules:

Burden of proof is on Pro. I will note my opponent's correct assertion that the BoP is on the atheist when the debate is in terms of "There is no god." This is not that debate. Burden of proof will be used in tandem with Wikipedia's definition: "the obligation on a party in an epistemic dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position." (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

Semantics:

Inappropriate
semantics will not be tolerated. "Semantics" has gotten a bad reputation but it is simply the study of meaning and appropriate denotata. Discussions of meaning are welcome, but inappropriate application of meanings (rhetorical trickery or deceptive semantics) will not be allowed and should be pointed out when used.

Scope:

The god question is the largest that any individual can ask, so I have great respect for my opponent, who is a self-prescribed born-again Christian, in his willingness to discuss such a topic. Hopefully he realizes that many within his ranks and with his label are unwilling to do even that. For this reason, the scope of this debate is wide. If it goes into philosophical inquiries and conflicts, so be it. If it becomes scientific, be that as it may. Be it sociological, psychological, anthropological, metaphysical, or any other legitimate frame, that will be welcomed.

On ultimate effects:

This is not a debate on whether religion/god, or the idea of such things, is good for the world or if it has been beneficial or detrimental to society. These are interesting topics, nonetheless, but not appropriate in terms of the legitimacy of such claims. The reverse holds, in that this is not a debate on the atrocities committed by alleged atheists such as Pol Pot or Stalin. Simply, this debate is on the existence of god.

On deism & pantheism:

If my opponent wishes to stray from his personal, specified label of a born again Christian and make the case for deism or pantheism, that is welcomed. However, it will not be allowed (and should be pointed out) if my opponent claims arguments for such positions are said to be parallel for arguments for theism, and I should be charged points if I fail to maintain focus on the argument's tenets with regard to the specific theological proposition as they develop.

On sources & justification:

All sources are welcomed, but they must be appropriately applied and represented. The Bible, for example, is a fine source, but the nature of a debate (and this debate particularly) requires that such sources be legitimized reasonably and logically. Thus, statements such as "It's true because the Bible says so" will not be permitted unless convincing and rational arguments are put forth to give reason why the Bible should be trusted on these issues.

I will conclude by saying that if my opponent wish to begin arguments in his first round, by all means. If he wishes to reserve it for acceptance, I will begin initial arguments. This will be a civil debate, and the voters should consider both my opponent's and my adherence to that stipulation.
Dale.G

Pro

First Of all I would like to thank andrewkletzien for wanting to debate me

Here We go God dose exists why does God exists well

Number 1. The Bible is Proof for God being very real many people have picked up the bible and read the bible I have read the Bible and I see what the Bible says about God The bible say's in Hebrews 11:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

/ Me Quote so for andrewkletzien to believe God exists andrewkletzien needs to confess the wonderful name of Jesus Christ and believe God had sent Jesus Christ to die on the Cross for all of our sins and repent and ask God to forgive you for all your sins and repent by saying Lord Jesus Christ I repent for lying stealing or bearing false witness
and ask the Lord Jesus Christ to come into your heart and life The Apostle Paul said in Romans 10:9-13
King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

/ Me Quote once anyone calls on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ then they will be saved

Number 2. God is real just by calling out to him Jesus Christ has came to me in dreams and visions I had a vision of seeing Jesus Christ, is their where people in the water and they where be tossed around in the waves; then i heard a voice then when i looked i beheld seeing Jesus flying throw the air over to this one ship. where their was a dove their,' it was very grate Jesus looks like he has water within his belly and Jesus looks like me or u. 2ed vision i had of seeing Jesus one night I went to sleep then i was sounded by those mean guys right then they where all pointing at this one part; and they said it is him it is Jesus of Nazareth, then I looked then i sore Jesus Christ it was like yea, then Jesus Christ came to help me Jesus Christ had a bow and he was smiling I could see Jesus smiling. 3 vision i had of seeing Jesus, OK I will tell how i seen Jesus Christ in a vision. OK one night I went to sleep and then I seen this dark person, and this dark person was trying to draw me to it,' I yelled at the dark person i said i am free from the law of sin and death by the blood of Jesus Christ. then suddenly,' I heard this wonderful voice up in the sky started to speak in unknown Tongues, then the grown start to shake then as the grown started to shake i then felt a pulling upwards up into the clouds then as I was going up I felt this grate love, Joy, and Peace, fallowing throw me and I was smiling I can Remember it so clearly and as I went up into the clouds. then as the clouds faded away; then I sore with my very eyes Jesus I sore water within him, his face was side on he was moving and their was thunder in the distances, and when I seen Jesus Christ I heard Jesus say devil take your hands of my children they are mind, so Jesus was very angry with the devil, then all I remember is going back down and this big fire it was like a big fire ball coming down and it was like a protection for me. and then as i went out of the vision I seen where that evil person was it was all fire there is a bible verse in 2 Kings 1:14 2 Kings 1:14
Amplified Bible (AMP)
14 Behold, fire came down from heaven and burned up the two captains of the former fifties with their fifties. Therefore let my life now be precious in your sight. Isaiah 24:1
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Isaiah 24

1 BEHOLD, THE Lord will make the land and the [a]earth empty and make it waste and turn it upside down (twist the face of it) and scatter abroad its inhabitants. and that is the vision of what i had of seeing the Lord Jesus Christ

/ Me Quote Number 3. God is the one who made me and made you

Number 4. one reason why God is real is because I can feel God Love Joy Peace

Number 5. there has being over 3000 people in different parts of this world who talk about God, Q: What is so ironic about Atheists? A: They"re always talking about God.

some people say 'If God gives me sign, ' then i will believe
what i says on that question is this the unsaved often want a 'sign ' from God.
this is in spite of the testimony of creation, their conscience, the bible, and Christian the cross is the only thing that can truly convince a sinner of the reality of who Jesus is once they understand that the holes in his hands and his feet are there because of their own sin, they will fall at his feet and cry, 'My Lord and my God!'
Debate Round No. 1
andrewkletzien

Con

Thank you for beginning the arguments.

Response to #1:

Pro saiys that "The Bible is Proof for God being very real many people have picked up the bible and read the bible." He further says that for me to come to believe I must "confess the wonderful name of Jesus Christ and believe God had sent Jesus Christ to die on the Cross for all of our sins and repent and ask God to forgive you for all your sins and repent by saying Lord Jesus Christ I repent for lying stealing or bearing false witness."

I will note first that I sincerely took my opponent's advice, and when reading his arguments said aloud, "Lord Jesus Christ I repent for lying, stealing, or bearing false witness." Nothing seems to have happened, unless I am doing it wrong. And this is my point: I am not attempting to debate how one comes to believe, or why people have not come to believe or fallen into apostasy, I am asking and attempting to find out why I should believe.

My opponent claims that the Bible is evidence. I will note that in the first round, I made it quite clear that "...statements such as 'It's true because the Bible says so' will not be permitted unless convincing and rational arguments are put forth to give reason why the Bible should be trusted on the issues." My opponent seems to have forgetten to provide such evidence, but gone on assumption. I will respond to the assumption, however, by pointing out how I view the Bible. The Bible is a wonderful piece of literature, with numerous types of genres, written by hundreds of authors over many, many centuries. It has much in common with its predecessors, with some stories taken ver batum from earlier texts. For example, the Greek god Dionysus was allegedly born of a virgin, became a very young teacher, was baptized in a river by a man who was later beheaded, performed miracles, practiced exorcism, was crucified, died, and was resurrected three days later. I propose Pro provide reason to believe that the Bible is an inherent word. Arguments for this must not be because it was inspired or transcribed by god, for this inappropriately assumes the premise in dispute.

Reponse to #2:

As I noted, I have "called out" to Jesus Christ. I was a Christian for 16 years, believed every word of it, prayed consistently and have attended Catholic school since I was 5 years old. My opponent claims his vision (which, of course, none of us have any access to for verification purposes) is evidence for god. In an attempt not only to neutralize this but to show how unuseful it is as a form of argumentation, I will posit that I also had a vision, but this one was of someone telling me that god does not exist. You will note that this "vision" of mine is no more provable or relevant to the question at hand than my opponents. In short, my opponent must make an effort to validate a posteriori articles of faith. This is not to say that sources of experience are useless, but they may not, and should not be taken on face value. I urge my opponent to show us why his visions are reliable, and why we should believe he had them in the first place. If he does this (and I can think of no possible way he could), vote accordingly.

Response to #3:

My opponent here has made a declarative statement with no evidence; let the record state.

Response to #4:

As mentioned in response to #2, you must give reason to accept your feelings as a sign of some external, definitive truth of a deity. Many people feel that they are god (The Three Christs of Ypsilanti: http://en.wikipedia.org...). Ockham's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_razor) tells us that we must rid ourselves of parts of explantory theories that are unneccessary. The fact of the matter is, we have better explanations for the things my opponent calls into question, such as evolution, physiology, psycholoy, chemistry, anthropology, human emotional intelligence, etc.

Response to #5:

I'm confused on this point, as there are many more than 3,000 people who have talked about god. In response to the trivial question my opponent poses, I will note that detectives are always talking about and thinking about crime, much like the relationship between the idea of god and atheists.
Dale.G

Pro

Well The Proof for visions of seeing the Lord Jesus Christ is Me, I have seen the Lord Jesus Christ in visions and dreams, If you andrewkletzien call out and ask Father God to show you the Lord Jesus Christ to you in dreams and visions Jesus Christ will show himself to you. then once you see Jesus Christ in dreams and visions, then you will believe and have faith God dose exists, and I would like to ask you andrewkletzien have you ever had a dream vision that when you woke up you said to your self wow that dream visions was so real. after I had visions dreams of seeing the Lord Jesus Christ after I woke up I said to myself wow I just seen the Lord Jesus Christ, that dream and vision felt very real when in fact the dream vision of seeing the Lord Jesus Christ is real. andrewkletzien can you prove me wrong well andrewkletzien if you see the Lord Jesus Christ in a dream and visions you would believe God exists that would be a reason to believe in God
The Bible is 100 percent accurate and correct for you to trust the bible you need to read the Bible and see that The bible talks about the wall of Jericho The bible says in Hebrews 11:30
King James Version (KJV)
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

/ Me Quote now History talks about the Full of Jericho would History lie about such a thing like the full of Jericho the Bible was written way before the walls of Jericho fell thus that is why I believe the bible can be trustworthy

plus I would like to ask you andrewkletzien If you knew me personally and if you knew that I had 2 sisters and a brother would you andrewkletzien believe me when I tell you that I love me 2 sisters and my brother.

/ Me Quote andrewkletzien do you believe me when I tell you that there has being wars and Famines and earthquakes that has happen before and are now happing.
Debate Round No. 2
andrewkletzien

Con

On Dreams:

I have a few things to point out in terms of dreams:

1. The first I will take from the following video on "coincidence": (). The question of dreams and their accuracy or relevance with regard to objective reality are ultimately dependent on probability. It it a problem similar to the main problem of epistemology: if you hold a belief that is "correct," one must make an effort to justify it, even if it is correct, because there is a chance that you were correct simply by chance. For example, if you are about to flip a coin and believe it will land on heads, and then it does land on heads, it cannot be said that you actually knew that it would land on heads. You must show that you hold not only a true belief, but a justified true belief. It is a similar issue with dreams: one must show that their dreams have a probability of showing significant and relevant information with regard to the outside world, and that it is not probable that there are other reasons for these dreams. As the video says, "Statements of prediction are equally subject to the laws of probability." I propose my opponent has made a statement of prediction, in that he is making a claim of the source and reason for his visions that has probability lying on the claim. The video asks you to think of the "dizzying variety of behaviors that you engage in as just one person... the permutations of the vast number of experiences allow for at least a small number of the world's population to witness these bizarre and astonishing coincidences you might imagine."

What is the coincidence? The question underlying this tangent is what the coincidence is, so I suggest to my opponent that the incredible amount of coverage and attention Christianity gets in this day and age provides a better explanation for his dreams and visions than the inherent truth or relevancy of said visions.

The second thing I would like to bring into this discussion of my opponent's dreams and visions is from Friedrich Nietzsche's Human, All-Too-Human. Nietzsche tells us in Section 1/Part 12 of the mind while asleep:

"Arbitrary and confused as it is, it continually mistakes things on the basis of the most superficial similarities; but it was the same arbitrariness and confusion with which the tribes composed their mythologies, and even now travellers regularly observe how greatly the savage inclines to forgetfulness, how, after he strains his memory briefly, his mind begins to stagger about, and he produces lies and nonsense simply because he is weary."

He continues on why this happens in Section 1/Part 13:

"
When we sleep, our nervous system is continually stimulated by various inner causes: almost all the organs secrete and are active; the blood circulates turbulently; the sleeper's position presses certain limbs; his blankets influence sensation in various ways; the stomach digests and disturbs other organs with its movements; the intestines turn; the placement of the head occasions unusual positions of the muscles; the feet, without shoes, their soles not pressing on the floor, causing a feeling of unusualness, as does the different way the whole body is clothed after its daily change and variation; all of this strangeness stimulates the entire system, including even the brain function. And so there are a hundred occasions for the mind to be amazed, to seek reasons for this stimulation. It is the dreams which seeks and imagines the causes for those stimulated feelings -- that is, the alleged causes."

And further:

"The stimulated imagination turns the recent past, disclosed in this way, into the present. Everyone knows from experience how fast the dreamer can incorporate into his dream aloud sound he hears, a bell ringing, for example, or cannon fire, how he can explain it after the fact from his dream, so that he believes he is experiencing the occasioning factors, and then that sound."

So here I propose that we have a much better explanation for my opponent's visions and dreams (which I cannot possibly take upon myself to prove did not happen) than the validity and relevance of said dreams. I think it makes quite a bit of sense, having understood the nature of coincidence with regard to the immense number of experiences we have each day and the mind's incredible ability to be deceived, even while sleeping. I will also point out with regard to probability that if dreams and visions are to be given such a power, the power to give us eternal and objective truth, then probability requires of us to consider all dreams and visions in such an analysis. Thus, anyone's vision of a pink elephant while on LSD or while dreaming must be taken just as seriously as the vision of Christ, and I propose there is no difference, practically or theoretically, between my recurring nightmare of being eaten by a fire-breathing t-Rex when I was a child (how strange our dreams can be, mind you) and my opponent's recurring visions of Christ. My opponent has given no reason to believe they should be treated differently, and the fact that speaking of Christ is quite a commonplace in today's world, especially for a born-again Christian like my opponent, gives a very likely explanation for why these dreams are occurring, as opposed to my opponent's insistence that these dreams are somehow not just a coincidence but a source of revealed truth (a "source" of truth that, mind you, has not been validated by my opponent). My opponent says that dreams appear "so real," and he is correct. I propose I have given a reason for this (or, more precisely, Nietzsche has given a reason for this), and anyone who has suffered from night terrors and had to be convinced of their innate arbitrariness by their parents will recognize that the perceived "realness" of the dreams is no indication of their truth claims or relevance to objective inquiries into the nature of things or the cosmos.

This, I have done what my opponent has asked of me, and shown him why dreams and visions are not a "reason to believe in God."

On the validity of the Bible:

My opponent has further claimed that the Bible is 100% accurate and correct." I will first ask him which stories in the Bible are 100% accurate, as there are many stories which are mutually exclusive describing the same supposed "event." He says that to "trust the bible you need to read the Bible." I have read numerous books, including Homer's the Odyssey. I would ask my opponent to lay out why these ancient tale of the travels of Odysseus are not 100% accurate, and I suspect he would turn to historical documentation and the nature and scope of fiction. It is a level of analysis he apparently has not used on the Bible, and fails to recognize that the reading of a series of text does not suffice in demonstrating their usefulness or their accuracy. One must provide reasons outside of the Bible that point to the validity of the Bible, and this is a commonplace and widely-accepted process of justification.

My opponent claims that history speaking of the fall of Jericho is reason to believe that said fall happened the way the Bible says it does. He asks "would history lie?" I think anyone who has read history knows that history has a long and complicated history with falsifying the truth, making the study of history much more than simply reading ancient accounts, but requires one to engage in cultural, literary, and historical analysis. It is a quite common notion to say that "The victors write history," and the methods by which we examine texts for historical truth must be, and oftentimes is, much more complicated than taking their claims at face value. For example, the Gospel of Judas says that Jesus told Judas to betray him so that it would be thought Jesus was the Messiah, fulfilling the ancient prophecies. I realize the historical controversy over this text, but my opponent's historical evaluative criterion provide no reason to believe the canonical bible over this account.
Dale.G

Pro

I would like to ask a Question to Con is your Imagination Real

/ Me Quote Me saying whenever I flip a coin, I look at either heads or tales,' I can choose weather or not to go for heads or tales; but if I was to choose heads and it lands on heads; then I was right about what I have chosen right. right someone can know that it would land on heads, why because that is what the person chooses and if it did land on heads then I would say I just knew it would land on heads. lol

/ Me Quote Me saying to Con I would ask you to ask Father God to show your the Lord Jesus Christ to you in a dream and vision and Jesus will come to you in dreams and visions. the proof and Evidence is you will see Jesus in visions and dreams thus then it will be you who will know deep down in your heart that what I said about me having dreams and visions of seeing the Lord Jesus Christ is true. :)

/ Me Quote me saying to Con do dreams happen yes or no.

/ Me Quote Me saying Jesus knew Judas would betray him Jesus Christ said in John 6:64
King James Version (KJV)
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

/ Me Quote Me saying Jesus Christ also said in
John 17:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

/ Me Quote Me saying why should we believe the bible is 100 percent accurate and correct; let's look at Prophecy shall we, there has being fulfilled Bible prophecy that has being done :) let's look at Israel will prevail over its enemies
Bible passage: Isaiah 41:12-14
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s

In Isaiah 41:12-14, the prophet said God would help Israel during times of conflict with enemies (if the people have faith in God). Isaiah said this during a time when the northern kingdom of Israel had already been conquered by the Assyrian Empire. And the southern kingdom, Judah, was about to be conquered by Babylon. (The Bible explains that Israel and Judah lost their independence because so many of the residents had turned to false religions). But, since 1948 when Israel was re-established, Israel has been attacked by much-larger countries. And Israel has prevailed in each of those attacks. This prophecy has found partial fulfillment; Christian scholars believe that a time will come when all of Israel's enemies are destroyed.

Here is Isaiah 41:12-14

Though you search for your enemies, you will not find them. Those who wage war against you will be as nothing at all. For I am the Lord, your God, who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, Do not fear; I will help you. Do not be afraid, O worm Jacob, O little Israel, for I myself will help you," declares the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

/ Me Quote Me saying let's look at The ruins of Israel would be rebuilt Bible passage: Amos 9:11, 13
Written: about 750 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s

In Amos 9:11, 13, the prophet said that God would restore the land of David. (King David ruled Israel from about 1010 BC to about 970 BC). The land of David - Israel - was conquered and destroyed by the Babylonians, Assyrians and Romans. The land has been in ruins for much of the past 2000 years. The Jews, who had been scattered throughout the world, began to return in large numbers during the past 100 years. Since then, they have been rebuilding many of Israel's ancient cities. Amos also said there would be continuous planting and harvesting. During the past 100 years, the Jews have been using advanced farming and irrigation techniques to turn barren land into productive farmland. Today, Israel is a source of food for many countries.

Here is Amos 9:11, 13

"In that day I will restore David's fallen tent. I will repair its broken places, restore its ruins, and build it as it used to be,' " "The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills."

/ Me Quote Me saying here is why God who is Jesus Christ is real please watch video evidence for God who is Jesus Christ is very real.

/ Me Quote Me saying to Con I never meet Patrick who is in the YouTube video before, but father God gave Mr Prophetic Evangelist Dale Garland a Prophetic Word to give to Patrick. thus I have given solid proof and Evidence for God who is Jesus Christ being very real :) I can boast and say checkmate right there. :) lol

/ Me Quote Me saying to Con the way to prove God being very real is peoples Testimony's, please watch video Evidence of The Testimony's I Present before you

/ Me Quote me saying to Con, to say believing in God is you first have to see God to believe in him if you say that I will say you don't believe in the wind, you say yes I do Dale I will say no you don't,' I will say what proof and Evidence do you have that you believe in the wind. you say well I feel the wind I will say now when someone comes to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ they say they feel God Love Joy and Peace, and some people call us Christians nuts but we are not nuts,' come on people God is real,' I have never seen the wind come at me before but I have felt the wind come and touch my skin. :) to say God is not real is just like saying you cannot see your ear but you need a mirror to see your ear you cannot see your ear without using a mirror. :)

/ Me Quote Me saying to Con If God does not exist, then from where comes humanity's universal moral sense?

/ Me Quote Me saying to Con why would people choose to die for something that they believe there where the Apostles
History reveals the fate of the Apostles Philip: was stoned to death,Phrygia,A.D 54 Peter: was Crucified,Rome A.D 69
the Apostle Paul: was Beheaded Rome, A.D 69 Andrew: was Crucified,Achaia,A.D 70 Matthew: was Beheaded Ethiopia,A.D Thomas: was speared to death ,Calamino, 70 A.D James ( The Less): was Clubbed to death, Jerusalem A.D, 63 John: was Abandoned, isle of patmos,A.D 63

/ Me Quote Me Saying to would you choose to die for your belief can you humbly answer that question thanks
Debate Round No. 3
andrewkletzien

Con

In my final round, I would not like to be accused of not responding conclusively. So, I will begin by laying out and answering directly the questions posed to me, and you will see that I have no fears in answering them; I fully recognize and have admitted I am not in the position to accuse my opponent of a liar, that these visions may not have happened. My argument here is to take the responsible path, to show not knowledge of the validity of these occurrences but to provide a reason for these occurrences that is more likely a statement of physiology, human experience, and the workings of our imperfect minds, rather than a statement of the validity and truth of what these experiences told my opponent. For this I must remain clear, that my role is not to deny that these things happen, but my responsibility is to show a more reasonable "reason" for these occurrences than the inherent truth of these visions.

My answers:

1. "Is your imagination real?" Real, yes. Reliable in regard to objective truths, absolutely not. I do not claim or adhere to such arrogance.

2. "I would ask you to ask Father God to show you the Lord Jesus Christ to you in a dream." I must be honest, I was a devout, conservative Catholic for 16 years. I have asked, through perilous problems in my life with regard to family health and my own personal mental health, and I realized that the problem was not that I was not praying hard enough, it was that no one was on the other side. Like I said in the comments, I know what you're offering me. Do not assume that I do not understand, for I have been in Catholic, private school since K-5 to my Jesuit, Catholic university. I realize I'm not debating with a Catholic, but the assumption that I do not understand, or I don't want it enough or don't understand what you're offering me, is absurd and serves as a cover to the fact that you don't realize people don't want it; I don't wish to be offered an impermeable faith which tells me I have all the answers about the biggest questions, I don't wish to be a part of the scapegoating that is the "sacrifice" of Jesus Christ, effectively a vicarious redemption allowing people to put their sins on another human being. I wish to take responsibility for my own actions, and I am driving this point home because I find it to be the most influential cognitive dissonance between believers and non-believers: knowing the difference between proselytizing and intelligent debate.

3. "Do dreams happen, yes or no?" Yes, I think I have made that thus far clear, if I have not I apologize, but I think anyone who read my last debate will see I do not argue for a second the existence of dreams. I simply argue that my opponent is giving dreams much more cognitive attention than they deserve.

4. "Would you choose to die for your belief, can you humbly answer that question." Simply put, for the most part, no. And that's my point, I don't have that much certainty, and don't assume that a mammalian primate like myself can claim to have that much certainty. So no, I believe in recognizing my own self interest, and find the promotion and glorification of martyrdom to be quite misplaced and unsubstantiated with regard to moral law and questions of the rightness, wrongness, or even necessity of such an act. Simply put, I have my beliefs but I would never institutionalize, in tablet form, that dying for these beliefs which others have laid out for you to accept. I am more skeptical of authority than that.

On the epistemic knowledge question:

My opponent has quite clearly failed to see the ultimate question of epistemology and how it relates to the question and statement of probability he is making. He is perfectly right to say that if he "guesses" that a coin will land on heads, and it does so, then he held a "true" belief. The question is much further, and my opponent's failure to recognize this is quite revealing within the larger context of this inquiry. The question is whether or not you held a justified true belief, whether your "correct" statement was simply a matter of luck. The same question has been posed to you and left unanswered: what reason do you have to believe that these dreams and visions provide not a correct belief, but a justified true belief? You have none, and anyone who recognizes this basic question will realize that the necessity and inherent need for justified true belief has not been met by my opponent in his descriptions of these dreams and visions.

On my personal dreams and visions of Christ:

I too have had dreams with Christ in them, but I also have had dreams with fire-breathing T-Rexs, and anyone who watched my previously cited video will see that in developing a theory of the accuracy of such mental states, one must consider all of the occurrences, meaning all of the obviously absurd and subconsciously fabricated dreams. My opponent has given absolutely no reason to believe his dreams and visions of Jesus are of any more legitimacy or relevancy to questions of objective reality, specifically the existence of god, the question that this debate was derivitive of. If I had such a dream, I would surely chalk it up to the widespread nature of Christianity within my culture and the overall tendency of individuals to dream of things related to the world and environment they live in, rather than the innate truth in the visions I have seen. I have seen a pink elephant or two in my time, under the influence of not-entirely-healthy substances, as well as within my dreams and past night-terrors, but I have seen no reason to establish this as a relevant epistemic source of truth, and especially not if properly asked to establish justified, true belief.

On the Bible and it's overall use
:

I do not wish to repeat myself overtly, but I made it clear that any authority or evidence drawn from the Bible must be backed up by convincing and clear reason to believe that specific text with relation to the historical, scientific, or philosophical claims the text makes. I honestly believe that no such evidence was provided, at least not in a serious and convincing amount, and thus the countless Biblical quotes that are often lacking in historical and literary analysis and/or criticism are entirely irrelevant, for no sufficient argument was made to establish the validity of such quotes within the confines of this debate. A skilled and passionate atheist who is quite hung up on these details, and anyone who has read the Bible, front to back, as I have, will note that the Israeli conquests and "accomplishments" that are described have a much richer and more revealing history, with the tribe being responsible for mass genocide, widespread rape, gruesome infanticide, all warranted from the deity. This is historical semantics at this point, but I ask anyone reading to at least acknowledge that the context of many of these texts provide a much more convincing reason to think that anything expressed in such a text is truly marked by the "indelible stamp of our lowly origin," as Darwin would have put it.

What my opponent's argument ultimate comes down to:
1. I had visions and dreams of Jesus Christ.
2. These visions seemed real to me.
3. These visions are reason enough for me to believe.
4. Because these are reason enough for me to believe, they are reason enough for you to believe.

I will ask my readers to evaluate this argument, not only for its validity and consistence with the arguments set forth by my opponent, but for the quality of its persuasion. If you were set with a list of things people have dreamt about and had visions of, I find it reasonably sensible to conclude you would be faced with choosing between the most absurd and incoherent narratives you can imagine, and no amount of evidence provided by my opponent gives reason to believe his particular visions of a subject very relevant to him during his waking hours are any more of an indication of objective reality as it exists than my childhood nightmares of a fire-breathing T-Rex.
Dale.G

Pro

OK I agree that I have a imagination,and you to Con have a imagination to, now I can say I have the Lord Jesus Christ in my imagination. and Con you would have to believe me you cannot prove me wrong, because you would have to try to disprove I have not got a imagination, when I do have a imagination things come into our imagination, you Con would believe that Right, our imagination cannot be proven by video evidence until we act what was in our imagination. :)
many people who end up great art Designers have got a great imagination of creating art, :) it is possible to have something come into our imagination, and it becomes real, that can happen here is a link:
/ Me Quote Me Saying the person who drew up the pitcher of Jesus, had the design of Jesus in his imagination,
If I was to go to a doctor and tell the doctor I have Jesus Christ in me imagination, the first thing the doctor would say is what dose Jesus look like. then I would have to draw up a pitcher of Jesus :)

/ Me Quote Me saying Con said this I don't want it enough or don't understand what you're offering me, is absurd and serves as a cover to the fact that you don't realize people don't want it;

/ Me Quote Me Saying Con has just admitted that he is trying to deny evidence that I have given him and Con doesn't want other people to want it.

? Me Quote Me Saying I would like to ask Con a question Con would you lay down your life for someone you don't even know yes or no.

/ Me Quote Me Saying Con Jesus Christ offered up himself freely to die on the Cross for all our sins, Jesus wanted to die for all our sins, and no I do not die for someone else sins. only Jesus Christ paid for all of our sins the only way someone is saved is to believe and have faith that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all our sins, and to repent before the Lord Jesus Christ of all our sins, ask the Lord Jesus Christ forgiveness, and ask the Lord Jesus Christ to come into your heart and life, God dose not want me to die for someone else sins no, Jesus Christ said in John 3:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

/ Me Quote Me Saying so Con cannot disprove my dreams and visions, when Con answered my question regarding "Do dreams happen, yes or no?" / Me Quote Me Saying Con said Yes, so Con cannot argue against me having dreams and visions of seeing the Lord Jesus Christ when it is me who had that experience. Con to have a Experience of seeing the Lord Jesus Christ in dreams and visions if Con calls out to Father God and ask Father God to show him the Lord Jesus Christ in dreams and visions Jesus will. then when Jesus do come to you Con in dreams and visions then you will believe Dale was right, :) I can boast that God who is the Lord Jesus Christ can come to me, and Con in dreams and visions, I got a Question to ask Con what would impress you enough to believe and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, what would you do if Jesus Christ did show himself to you and started to talk to you about Heaven, and Jesus Christ shows you what Heaven looks like, and your like oh I would like for me Mum and Dad to see what Heaven is like. and how Jesus Christ loves you and how you feel love Joy and Peace in a dream and vision,

/ Me Quote Me Saying Con I would die for my belief in Jesus Christ, why well it shows that I am not a weak fooled person who backs down when the going get's hard. I am not fearful for what I believe in, :) those who choose to not die for their belief well to me that is madness, why is it madness well for example if someone comes up James and says to James if you do not believe in god I will kill you and let's say for example James say's, he dose not believe in God,' then James dies,' because of his madness belief system, that is why atheism is madness, if someone came up to me, and says they will shoot me dead by pointing a gun at me, and tells me I,would for my belief in Jesus Christ I would say yes even if I get shoot dead I will live forever with the Lord Jesus Christ. there has being people who have being killed for their belief in God here is proof and evidence watch this Link

/ Me Quote Me Saying when I watched the columbine shooting, on YouTube and when I heard one of the gunmen said to a Girl who by the name of Cassie Bernall, if she believed in God and she Cassie Bernall said yes, she Cassie Bernall was murdered. I choose to believe in God I knew within my heart what a brave young girl, to die for her belief I thought
well God is real, it is people testimony's of experiencing their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that got me believing in Jesus Christ.

/ Me Quote Me saying the reason why I believe the dreams and visions of seeing the Lord Jesus Christ was a real, experience is I felt Love Joy and Peace, in The dream vision, was very real. and when I was in the dream vision, I felt like I was actually came out of my body, and experienced seeing the Lord Jesus Christ a dream vision, happens you belief that Con. so Con you cannot say the dreams and visions of what I had was not real, why well when I asked Con this question here "Do dreams happen, yes or no?" / Me Quote Me Saying Con answered Yes,

/ Me Quote Me Saying Con which is it going to be, this is what You Con said The same question has been posed to you and left unanswered: what reason do you have to believe that these dreams and visions provide not a correct belief, but a justified true belief? You have none, / Me Quote Me Saying or is it going to be this Con "Do dreams happen, yes or no?" / Me Quote Me Saying Con answered Yes, / Me Quote Me Saying Con you cannot eat your cake and have it both ways. meaning if you say yes to do dreams happen, then you Con cannot say this The same question has been posed to you and left unanswered: what reason do you have to believe that these dreams and visions provide not a correct belief, but a justified true belief? You have none, / Me Quote Con needs to be honest with what he say's.

/ Me Quote Me Saying I have given reasons to believe in God who is Jesus Christ, I have described what happen in my dreams and visions of seeing the Lord Jesus Christ, Con well how come there are a lot more people then me and you who have seen Jesus Christ in dreams and visions. and said Jesus is real by how they seen Jesus Christ in dreams and visions, here is Proof and Evidence of a Muslims who had a vision of seeing the Lord Jesus Christ.

/ Me Quote Con I noticed you did not talk about your dreams of seeing Christ, if you truly had a visions dreams of seeing Jesus Christ your would describe a lot about the dream and visions, of seeing the Lord Jesus Christ, I have described a lot about the dreams and visions of me seeing Jesus Christ. and the way I believe dreams and visions can help someone believe in Jesus Christ, is if they truly ask and have a wanting to see Jesus Christ in a dreams and visions,
when I called out and asked Father God to show me the Lord Jesus Christ in dreams and visions I was so wanting I was not mucking around or mocking God. no I meant it and Jesus Christ came to me in dreams and visions, the way I believe my experiences of seeing Jesus Christ is the mount of Love Joy and Peace I felt, I feel the wind but I cannot see the wind dose that means the wind cannot be believable I believe in the wind even through I cannot see the wind
Debate Round No. 4
29 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by andrewkletzien 3 years ago
andrewkletzien
I concur that we need not take this further. I am glad, however, that we have come to a level of at least relative understanding and mutuality.
Posted by johnlubba 3 years ago
johnlubba
I no longer have any interest to pursue this matter further, I accept your never meant what I thought you meant. Although it did come across to me like you were saying that mentally ill people are easily duped into religion because they are not intelligent enough to know better due to a mental illness.

I apologize for thinking this is what you meant. and again thank you for holding the higher moral ground by not retaliating to my offensive remarks. Peace.
Posted by andrewkletzien 3 years ago
andrewkletzien
Your offense may be because you seem to have assumed there is any reason to conclude that intelligence has any correlation with mental illness. Your counter-hypothesis of my being an atheist as explained by mental illness makes such an assertion. Some of the most brilliant minds have been mentally ill, and some mental illness does come with a deficiency in intelligence. But it's important to note that my assertion of mental illness being a reasonable explanation for deep faith does not make any assertion, whatsoever, regarding intelligence.
Posted by johnlubba 3 years ago
johnlubba
You are apologizing for my perception when it's your perception that would be preferable to an apology.

Again you argue a strawman, as I stated earlier, I do not contend that when people face hard times they will turn to religion or God. I conceded this in my prior statement, and I am comfortable with that.

I was contending your statement about Dale.G being mentally ill and you using this as an excuse for his deep seated faith, What if I was to say after discovering you have a mental illness that it is perfectly reasonable to understand why you are an atheist, because you are not smart enough to have faith in God.

I do nor represent this as factual but I bet you would be offended by such a statement.

It's like you said Dale.G has a mental illness and that is why he is religious. Same thing.

Anyway, Andrew you have displayed good conduct in your rebuttals to me and not returned my offense to you, so for that I am grateful. But reject the comment that people who are mentally ill become religious because they are mentally ill, or that because someone is mentally ill it's undertstandable why he is a man of faith.
Posted by andrewkletzien 3 years ago
andrewkletzien
If you have taken what I have said to imply something heinous, then I apologize only that you have that perception, but not for what I have said. You will also note that you yourself have engaged in a straw man, for I did not say that this is the case in every situation. There are plenty of mentally ill atheists, myself being one. But it is statistically observable that those who are poor, those who are marginalized, and those who have physical and mental illnesses are more likely to turn to religious traditions than those who have economic and social security. The religious recognize this quite apparently in their constant questions to the dying of whether they will "convert" while they have their chance. They seem to think that they have a better chance of making converts of those who are not mentally or physically strong, and they are, in fact, correct about this. As Marx pointed out, to give up religion is to give up the condition which requires illusions, and conditions which require illusion (for aesthetic or emotional purposes) are thus more likely to be accorded with strong religious belief. It's statistics, proper and conservative extrapolation, nothing more and nothing less.
Posted by johnlubba 3 years ago
johnlubba
That's not what you are implying Andrew, you are implying because Dale.G is mentally ill it is perfectly reasonable to understand why he is a person of faith. That is a preposterous and offensive claim. What about mentally ill atheists? why haven't they turned to faith if being mentally ill is a reasonable qualification to pick up faith. What about those who have a deep seated faith that are not mentally ill.

I find it amusing that you are arguing a straw man, I am not contending that people who struggle or find life hard turn to God for answers or support, I am pointing out how offensive your comment was about Dale.G holding a deep seated faith because he is mentally ill, It's like your saying that mentally ill people are sucked into religion and faith because they are mentally ill. That is a thwarted perception. and does not hold true in all cases, what about those who are mentally ill and are atheistic? are they atheist because they are mentally ill?

You work it out.

I apologize for insulting you but remarks like that can hold cause for a retaliation.
Posted by andrewkletzien 3 years ago
andrewkletzien
It's a scientifically observable fact that those who struggle in life are more likely to be religious. Much literature had been written on "fox-hole atheists" because of it. The most common reason people give for their faith is the comfort it gives them. Thus, it makes perfect sense that those with a harder lot in life will be more likely to cling to a faith tradition.
Posted by johnlubba 3 years ago
johnlubba
I am fully capable of understanding what you said you twit.

I am challenging you on your stupidity to make such an outrageous claim as to imply that because Dlae G has a mental illness, this is the reason behind his deep seated faith.

You are a stupid idiot.
Posted by andrewkletzien 3 years ago
andrewkletzien
@johnlubba: What about what I said do you not understand?

This may help you: www.dictionary.com.
Or use your HookedOnPhonics.
Posted by johnlubba 3 years ago
johnlubba
@ Andrewkletzein As someone who has a very long and complicated history with mental illness, I actually understand why this may have led my opponent so such a deep-seeded faith.

WTF Are you talking about you retard.
9 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Vote Placed by derkcloud 3 years ago
derkcloud
andrewkletzienDale.GTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: I feel like I could copy and paste my reasons for voting from all of Dale.G's other debates, because it would still be valid. AS USUAL Pro had horrible spelling and grammar(I could type better with my flaccid c**k) Conduct points again go to Con since Pro again took time in each round to preach at Con. Pro lost any credibility by employing his "I can't see the wind" bit. Another pathetic debate from the world's most pathetic apologist.
Vote Placed by Deadlykris 3 years ago
Deadlykris
andrewkletzienDale.GTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Poor conduct, poor S&G, poor arguments, and self-sourcing? Pro loses, hands down.
Vote Placed by Trinitrotoluene 3 years ago
Trinitrotoluene
andrewkletzienDale.GTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Even while plagiarizing, Pro failed to present an argument that extended beyond the Bible itself.
Vote Placed by Aceviper2011 3 years ago
Aceviper2011
andrewkletzienDale.GTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: I said this once and ill say it again, you have to go beyond the bible to prove something exist.
Vote Placed by minstrel 3 years ago
minstrel
andrewkletzienDale.GTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Plagiarism again Dale.G! Doesn't the Bible have something to say about lying?
Vote Placed by THEVIRUS 3 years ago
THEVIRUS
andrewkletzienDale.GTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro didn't back anything up and stole whole arguments that weren't his
Vote Placed by rowsdower 3 years ago
rowsdower
andrewkletzienDale.GTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Even without the plagiarism pro lost. His entire argument consisted of i have visions and the bible says.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 3 years ago
bladerunner060
andrewkletzienDale.GTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Con made better arguments, however, it doesn't matter because Pro plagiariazed. Again.
Vote Placed by likespeace 3 years ago
likespeace
andrewkletzienDale.GTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Rowsdower proved Dale.G plagiarized his arguments, so arguments and conduct to Con. I am also reporting him, as this is at least his second offense, and he has been warned.