The Instigator
Debate_King1475
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
gryephon
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points

God exists

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
gryephon
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/11/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 617 times Debate No: 63084
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

Debate_King1475

Con

Alright. Please state your reason for believing in God and the evidence you have to support this and then I will make my rebuttal and argument.

Remember this before you argue state whether you believe in a personal God or a God of order and creation
gryephon

Pro


Tell me, do you not see that the body looks designed? Do you not see that you are fearfully and wonderfully made?


Tell me, do you not know that there is good and evil in the universe? For If there is no moral law giver, from whence come good and evil?


Tell me, do you not understand? What caused the universe to exist? Everything that exists has an explanation to its existence, except things that don’t out of their own nature (such as abstract entities like numbers and such). For if there is an explanation, the explanation is God.



I believe in a personal God. For if the universe shows intelligent design surely it has to be the work of conscience personal God, not a mindless impersonal deity that lacks intelligence.


Debate Round No. 1
Debate_King1475

Con

First, the body was not made intelligently. We get cancer, we have an appendix with no function and yet it can get cancer and kill us, we are mortal, we are weak, we have the desire to go to war I could go on. Well, if a god created man, then I would give him a 0/10 because you claim that god is perfect and yet a perfect man cannot get a perfect score, which is why he deserves no points.

Second, although you cannot prove in one sentences or even one book that a god does not exist. We can prove how unlikely it is that there is a god. The chances of a god existing are the same as the chances of the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus existing. There are so many things that contradict the existence of a god and even more contradictions of there being a personal god.

Third, although it is not 100% certain, it is highly likely that the big bang theory created the universe by spontaneously creating itself from nothing, which quantum mechanics explains from scientific theory. Scientific theory unlike religion is tested and researched before we make any claims and religion could have easily made up evidence and made up their religion with NO EVIDENCE.

Now for my many arguments for why I believe that there is no God:

Why would god not want to reveal himself to us? By not revealing himself to us, he is allowing there to be doubt and different views on what god is. You might say that if god reveals himself then we will be forced to act perfectly because he is always watching. But if you believe for a fact that god is always watching, then why do you make mistakes?

Also, if the universe had to have a cause, which you believe is god, then who created god? Why would you make an exception for your own case and not mine? Also, quantum mechanics verifies that the universe could have spontaneously created itself. It gives no explanation on how god could have been created.

Also, if god is supernatural then there would need to be supernatural evidence of him existing. Jesus is not supernatural evidence because you have no proof that he existed. If you say that the Bible verifies it, then I say that what is your proof that the Bible is no made up but was actually written by God.

Also, if god is supernatural and not bound by time then he would be spontaneously living in all time frames throughout history. If this is true, then god would have created everything at the same time throughout history. So, he would have created us knowing that we would fail him. If you say that free will is the reason that we betrayed him, then I would say that free will does not exist because our decisions are made by our brain. If we claim that god created us, then god created our decision making organ, the brain, in a way that would result in us betraying him. If you claim that the soul is what lets us do our decision making, then the same logic would apply from the brain.

Also, why would a God create such a big universe and only care about earth?

Also, why would a God have any desire to create us? It is not because of love because if god created us out of love then why would he allow us to fail him and cause all of our suffering in the world. Our actions are a result of what this god has created and if we betray him then god made us to betray him.

For your argument, give me well-tested, concrete evidence that there is a god.
gryephon

Pro

1st) Why God allows illness in the world is a tough one to respond to. I do know God has used illnesses before to discipline because of sin, and I do know that a disability has been used to show his glory such as the account of the blind man and Jesus (John 9:1-3). David was weak when compared to his massive nemesis Goliath, yet he gave the battle to the lord. Even Jesus’s mortality, his death at Calvary, has been a beacon of hope and brought many to God.

Honestly, I can’t tell you why God lets this or that person specifically suffers or dies because I don’t know everything. But I do know God has used these negative aspects for good. Just because there seems to be negatives at first glance, doesn’t really disprove that god did not make man.

On Vestigal Organs, the appendix isn’t a useless organ, it’s a storehouse for beneficial bacteria, read this article[http://bit.ly...]. I don’t know for certain if there really are any useless organs or just organs we don’t yet understand the functions to. How would one know when the ones we use to think were, are not?

You are correct that man cannot get a perfect score themselves, but with God, all things are possible. Man can be forgiven and become perfect through God.


2nd) I don’t really see how God’s existence is associated with chance. You can’t flip a coin and say he exists or doesn’t. I’m sorry, it doesn’t work that way.

What contradictions state that God cannot exist?


3rd) I’m pretty skeptical on spontaneous existence. Historically speaking, spontaneous existence has a tendency to be disproven in science, e.g. Pasteur’s experiment.

The problem is that “nothing” is not a causal agent nor a spontaneous agent by its nature, nothing is not anything by definition. Nothing has no space, no dimensions, no mass, and no causality. What you’re proposing from my understanding is nothing created the universe. It’s self-evident, nothing cannot start the universe, it has to be something because something can be a causal agent, but nothing cannot be a causal agent.

It also needs to be noted that whatever caused the universe to exist needs to be able to make causes on its own accord. The only thing I know that causes something on its own accord is a mind, a personal being. This would mean that whatever caused the universe fits perfectly with a personal God.

Why say no evidence? Whoever says this is deprived of any form of religious education.



Your other arguments

Reveal? If you do not believe in Jesus, or the divine attributes that are clearly seen in nature. You would not believe in God even if a person rose from the dead and said he existed. In my mind, he does reveal, in his own way, you just don’t want to believe.



then who created god?

Well there are exceptions to the cause. I’ll explain it like this, “Anything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.” For example abstract entities like numbers don’t have a beginning or ending, time is irrelevant to them, they don’t really cease to exist like material objects tend to do. And it’s because it’s in their nature that they are this way. God in his nature is eternal. Quantum mechanics doesn’t need to explain his origin because he has none.


there would need to be supernatural evidence of him existing

What do you mean by supernatural evidence? To me life itself is supernatural evidence for a creator.

If it is true that Jesus never existed I find this truly mind boggling that the most influential man in all of human history never existed. Many martyrs have died in his name. People’s lives have changed from his sermons. The most widely used calendar (Gregorian) is based on his existence. If you don’t believe that Jesus ever existed, why believe in any historical fact?

If you’re after non-Christian sources, I guess you could try Josephus or Tacitus for starters. Though my favorites are the ones from the Bible.


if god is supernatural and not bound by time then he would be spontaneously living in all time frames throughout history…

What do you mean by spontaneously living all the time? God is eternal, there is nothing spontaneous about that. There is no popping into existence, he’s simply always been.

Yes, this is true that God made beings that can be susceptible to temptation like the incident in the garden of Eden. In the same way it is also possible to resist temptation as many characters in the bible have demonstrated (e.g. Job 1:22). For why do you say free will can’t exist because God made man this way? I do not understand. Some people choose to give into temptation, whereas some do not.

why would a God create such a big universe and only care about earth?

Why assume the earth is all he cares about? The universe is so big that I wouldn’t know that.



Also, why would a God have any desire to create us?

I believe God made man for his glory.



For your argument, give me well-tested, concrete evidence that there is a god.

What do you mean “well-tested”? God isn’t something you can put under a microscope and test with chemicals if that’s what you’re after.



Also, you didn’t answer my question about where do good and evil come from (unless I missed it). For I do believe that objective moral values do exist, and the explanation to their existence is God.

Debate Round No. 2
Debate_King1475

Con

Debate_King1475 forfeited this round.
gryephon

Pro

Opponent has forfeited. Vote in favor of me.
Debate Round No. 3
Debate_King1475

Con

Debate_King1475 forfeited this round.
gryephon

Pro

Opponent has forfeited. Vote in favor of Pro.
Debate Round No. 4
Debate_King1475

Con

Debate_King1475 forfeited this round.
gryephon

Pro

Opponent has forfeited
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by mightbenihilism 2 years ago
mightbenihilism
Jhoncastro, the ancient Gnostics did indeed believe God to be an alien, calling him "Xeno" (the foreigner, the alien, the stranger). This later was appropriated by L Ron Hubbard in his "Xenu" mythos, revealed only at advanced levels of Scientology.

However, it is possible that God may not have our best interests at heart. He is called a "shepherd" among the Abrahamic faiths, for instance, and a shepherd only has sheep so he can:

1. Kill and eat them
2. Steal their wool
3. Steal their milk (in a way which decency forbids me to describe)

A shepherd also utilizes wicked and mangey dogs to keep the sheep in line, through fear. What else would describe the myriads of priests, mullahs, swamis, pastors, rabbis, and bonzes who have subjugated women, the poor and the working class for so many years?
Posted by jhoncastro 2 years ago
jhoncastro
God does exists its obvious. Who would have made us and me even an alien? There would be no life on earth or in my universe if he were not real. He is our father, provider, giver, and made us all the way we are today.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
Debate_King1475gryephonTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture