Debate Rounds (5)
if you dont mind you can start by giving some examples why there is no god.
I will start by giving a few reasons why I believe the personal Christian god of the bible does not exist. I would like Pro to counter these and then give some evidence of their own for the existence of this god. The BoP is mutual here so the winner will be the one with the best argument!
Reasons for the bible god not existing
1. The omnibenevolent god creates suffering
2. The perfect god is imperfect by creating imperfection
3. The omniscient god is not all knowing
4. The all powerful god is not all powerful
5. Genesis is incorrect on the creation of the universe
6. God is surprised?
1.) The god of the bible is suppose to be omnibenevolent, but due to his actions he is clearly not so, therefore he does not exist. An omnibenevolent being cannot create suffering, but this god surely does. Since he is all knowing god he knew that his creation would betray him, knew he would banish them from paradise, knew he was going to drown them in a flood (along with all those innocent babies and bunnies), knew his own son would be killed by them, etc... The point is why would an all benevolent being create such suffering. It is not possible therefore this god is not possible.
2.) A perfect being cannot create imperfection, but god does so with man. God creates a creature that chooses to betray him, which is not perfection. Most people come back at this argument by saying god gave us free will. That we needed free will in order to be happy and know love. That we the humans used this free will for evil and we are to blame for getting kicked out of paradise. This logic does not follow because the opposite could be true as well. If god made this rule that only free willed people could be happy then he could of changed it so non free willed people could experience happiness and love. That would be the best choice because these beings could not ruin their own happiness or gods. Or better yet could god of given humans freewill in order to be happy but still make it impossible for them to do evil? They could be given several good choices to choose from instead of one path. It follows logically since god is supposedly free willed and omnibenevolent that he can create beings that are as well. It is impossible for a perfect omnibenevolent god to crate beings that can ruin their own happiness, therefore he does not exist. Plus a little side note, if god is perfect and eternal, what made him make the universe in the first place? Perfect beings can't be bored because that is imperfection!
3.) This god who is omniscient is proven not to be in the bible itself. Here is an example when he tests Abraham.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
It clearly shows that god did not know that Abraham was loyal to him and had to test him to be sure. Some other examples are in the tons of IF THEN statements god makes. If he truly knows everything then he would know the future and should say WHEN you do this THEN this will happen. Here are a few examples.
3 IF ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
4 THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
14 But IF ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And IF ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
23 And IF ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
24 THEN will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
He should already know who is going to obey him and who isn't, so why these statements? Not to mention what I have already said above. God being all knowing had to of known he was going to create a faulty race and know he would continuously slaughter them, but created humans anyway. Its kinda sick when you look at it, he create a race he knew he would slaughter and did nothing to change it? God did not know this so he is not all knowing, he does not exist.
4.) I will again us the bible against itself here to show god is not all powerful.
Judges 1:19 And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Could not drive out chariots of iron? This god created the universe! He created iron! Yet he cannot drive them out? Another thing to ponder is why is there still evil in the world? If god is all powerful and omnibenevolent he cannot allow evil to exist and should be able to stop it, but he doesn't. It makes no sense to leave it in the world because that causes suffering and that would not make him omnbenevolent. If he cant get rid of it then he is not all powerful. He does not exist.
5.) God did not create the would in six days, and the "age" of the world according to the bible (which is the word of god so if its wrong he is wrong) is inaccurate. We know now thanks to modern science that the age of the world is 4.54 billion years old (2), and the universe is 13.798 billion years old (3). Not the 6000ish years old the bible portrays. A lot of Christians are split on this. Some are young earth believers (the 6 days thing) and some believe in and old earth ( Its true age). Those that follow the old world path believe the "days" are more of phases or eons instead of literal days. That evolution happened, but it was all part of gods plan. This is still wrong because if you look at the creation story birds came before land animals, which as we know from fossils is not so. Plus if you believe the old world view you would have to also believe that god watched man's ancestors struggle and die young for 100,000 years until modern man came around. Which a omnibenevolent god would not do. Another plus, if you don't believe in the 6 day myth then there is not original sin and thus no need for Jesus. God did not create the world in six days, he does not exist.
6.) God is surprised? It is not possible for an omniscient being to show emotion, because he already knows what is going to happen! When you step onto the street and a car almost hits you, you are shocked and scared. A being who knows everything knows would not be hit by the car and therefore would not show emotion. When you are angry at your spouse because you find them cheating on you it is because you did not know it was going to happen! God shows so many emotions, especially anger in the bible. This should not be so because he knew the things that angered him were going to happen! We show frustration and anger at not being able to change or fix things as well. An all powerful god should never have this problem because he can change anything. God shows emotions in the bible, he does not exist.
I have given 6 points that I would like you to counter. If you don't hit each of these I consider it a drop and loss. Plus give some evidence that the god of the bible exists as well please. I look forward to your answer! Thanks!
(1)https://www.bible.com... (I used the KJV)
You lack understanding of the Bible meaning these claims you make aren"t completely valid. I"ll explain more on this the next round. Please in the next round tell me what you think suffering is. In your case suffering isn"t real, it is a matter of opinion. If no god exists, I can say suffering doesn"t exist because the suffering we talk about is the suffering that is explained in the bible.
2.) God created perfection. For example let"s say you have a kid. He is an innocent little boy who you love. He grows up and is a good man. Next thing you know he is a drug dealer and is in jail. Was that your fault? Did you create imperfection or did he bring it upon himself? God gave us everything we needed before Adam and eve sinned and they betrayed him.
3.) So you say god knows everything? Yes he does. But for him to know everything and know what is going to happen, it has to happen. This is just a little example. God knows I"m going to post this post because he knows everything. But for him to know it will happen, it has to happen.
4.) I don"t think you understand the moral of the story. You really think god cant physically move it? Of course he can. It never says he can"t physically move it.
5.) //"God did not create the world in six days, and the "age" of the world according to the bible"//
Could you be wrong? Have scientist proven the age of the Earth? Are the 100% reliable? Do we understand the universe when we know less the 10% of our own ocean which is about 1:1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 etc. equivalent?
Humans know nothing without god because without him absolute truth can"t exist. If absolute truth doesn"t exist, we can"t know anything for sure, meaning we could be wrong about everything you know. This being said you could be wrong about everything you know.
Let"s say Genesis is not accurate or true. That disproves god how?
Your overall argument is as good and valid as me saying that all scientists are wrong and the Earth is 6000 years old, therefore he exists.
If genesis is correct, everything you said is wrong. Without absolute truth, your idea is no better than mine.
6.) Let"s say my brother is going to die in 2 days. Let"s say he has cancer and he will die in 2 days for sure. Is it sad? Yes it is very sad. Does this mean the day it happens I will not cry because I knew it would happen?
Let"s say I get hit by a car by surprise. It hurts and I will most likely be angry, mad etc. let"s say I know it"s going to happen, I see the car coming and I know I will be hit. I still will be mad because it happens. Now let"s say somehow I know it will happen in the next few days. I will be mad because I know it will happen and I will be mad and in pain when it actually happens. You might say well, I could have prevented it if I knew it would happen in the next few days. Yes I could. But would god? He gave us free will so most things he will not prevent us from doing.
Without god, absolute truth cannot exist. If absolute truth doesn"t exist, your "proof" or "facts" are nothing more than garbage because you saying they are true is no better than me saying they aren"t true.
It has been "proven" by scientist that the universe had a beginning. Prove to me how it could and how time could start without a higher being that stands outside of the law of physics.
1: the state or experience of one that suffers
Here is the definition of omnibenevelent
1.All-loving, or infinitely good, usually in reference to a deity or supernatural being, for example, 'God'. Its use is often with regards to the divine triad, whereby a deity is described to be simultaneously omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. This triad is used especially with the Christian god, Yahweh. The omnibenevolent God, by definition, was unable to withhold forgiveness from his people.
The god of the bible is omnibenevelent sand therefore cannot cause harm or suffering OR allow it. There are tons of examples where he does this as I have said before. I know suffering is real and that is a major reason why I question the Christian gods existence.
2)I am not a all powerful god! If I raise my kid and he turns out to be a drug dealer I have no control over that like you said. This is a bad analogy for god though because unlike me he created everything! He made Adam, he made personalities, he made emotions, he made his biology. He had complete control unlike I have with my kid. My statement is god is perfect, and he could not create that thing in Adam and eve that would cause imperfection and make them WANT to turn on him in the first place.
3) This part makes no sense. Your saying things have to happen in order for god to know about them? That still doesn't counter my point that he KNEW that the human race was going to fail BEFORE it happened. You're just saying it HAD to happen in order for him to know it was going to happen? That is not all knowing, but the Christian god is said to be in the bible.
4)I gave you the verse right there, plus you didn't counter my not getting rid of evil part either.
5) Yes science is pretty sure about the age of the earth and the beautiful thing about science is that it could be wrong! Scientists don't hold onto an idea once it is proven wrong or evidence is given that points to another conclusion. Unlike religion and christianity that claim to know everything already, science when GIVEN EVIDENCE can change its mind. Sure we could be wrong with the age of the world and sure we could never know its exact age, but we can get close to that number with modern technology today. The problem with your six day story is that there IS NO evidence at all to support it. If genesis in not true then it disproves the existence of the BLIBLICAL god, not that there isn't some deist god that created the universe out there. We are debating the Christian god here remember!
6)Here you say if you knew ahead of time you would still cry when your brother died. I agree you would, that is very sad. This does not counter my point that god knew all these things were going to happen when he crated man as he did, and he (unlike you) could of and didn't change man to prevent this from happening. The guy created the universe and man, couldn't he since he knew what man was going to do in the future change man? Or make him different?
You say that without god absolute truth doesn't exist. Well I say it doesn't exist now! We don't know anything for a fact a full 100%. So even with your Christian god we don't have absolute truth.
Here at the end you say it has been proven the universe had a begging. This is true, it has, and scientist have EVIDENCE of it happening 13.788 billion years ago (3). Now it is also true that science has not disproven that a god started the universe, nor can they in the foreseeable future. This DOES NOT mean that your Christian god is real. With the evidence given we can be very sure the universe wasn't made in six days about 6000ish years ago. This DISPROVES the bible and its god, but there could be some deist god out there that made the universe but doesn't take part in it. Those are two very different gods, and since we are debating the god you picked, science can disprove that one.
Thanks for your reply! I hope that you give me some evidence in your next round that your Christian god really exists, not some deist god. Thanks!
//"IF you want my personal definition of suffering I would say that it is harm."//
That is your personal definition. That doesn"t mean it is true. Personally I agree so we will go with it.
//"You suffer when something is being done to you (you are harmed), you suffer the consequences when you do something to others (bring harm upon yourself), and others suffer when you do something to them (you cause harm to them)."//
So what is your point? You"re proving that God doesn"t exist. This does not prove he doesn"t exist. You are admitting that humans bring suffering on themselves, not God.
//"The god of the bible is omnibenevolent sand therefore cannot cause harm or suffering OR allow it. There are tons of examples where he does this as I have said before. I know suffering is real and that is a major reason why I question the Christian God existence."//
You know suffering is real? How do you know? By who"s standards? Without God, suffering is just an opinion and is non-existent. For example, you say someone who is sick is suffering. I say he is not suffering. Who is right? Who decides who is right? Without someone who can decide this, you cannot say anything for a fact.
He can allow it when it"s a punishment. Adam and Eve sinned and brought suffering on themselves. He did not create it. We created it.
2.)//"He had complete control unlike I have with my kid. My statement is god is perfect, and he could not create that thing in Adam and eve that would cause imperfection and make them WANT to turn on him in the first place."//
God created perfection. We created imperfection. God is perfect because he created perfection. We are not perfect because we created imperfection. Please be more specific on what you mean by "that thing in Adam and Eve" that would make them want to turn on God.
3.)//"You"re saying things have to happen in order for god to know about them? That still doesn't counter my point that he KNEW that the human race was going to fail BEFORE it happened. You're just saying it HAD to happen in order for him to know it was going to happen? That is not all knowing, but the Christian god is said to be in the bible."//
God knows everything. Let"s say for example that I"m going to go and walk to school. He knows I"m going to walk to school. Now let"s say I"m not going to walk to school. Even though it hasn"t happened, he knows it won"t happen. For him to know something will happen, it has to happen. If it never does, he knew it wouldn"t happen.
He knows everything whether it happens or not.
4.)In the second round you said //"Judges 1:19 And the Lord was with Judah; and he drive out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Could not drive out chariots of iron? This god created the universe! He created iron! Yet he cannot drive them out? Another thing to ponder is why is there still evil in the world? If god is all powerful and omnibenevolent he cannot allow evil to exist and should be able to stop it, but he doesn't. It makes no sense to leave it in the world because that causes suffering and that would not make him omnibenevolent. If he can"t get rid of it then he is not all powerful. He does not exist."//
I said //"I don"t think you understand the moral of the story. You really think god can"t physically move it? Of course he can. It never says he can"t physically move it."//
I should have been clearer. God can move anything. Let me give an example of what he means by he can"t do it.
For example god can"t make us love him. But he can. He can"t because he promises he won"t. God obviously can do anything, but sometimes he chooses not to. After Noah"s ark, he promised he would never flood the Earth again. Now in a way he can and in a way he cant. Obviously he can if he wanted to, but he is not a liar, therefore in our eyes he can"t.
5.)//"Yes science is pretty sure about the age of the earth and the beautiful thing about science is that it could be wrong!"//
//"Unlike religion and Christianity that claim to know everything already, science when GIVEN EVIDENCE can change its mind."//
So we can"t change our mind but scientist can? Maybe it"s because we came to a conclusion and you haven"t? If there"s a chance your wrong, could that mean you"re wrong? Obviously scientist doesn"t have all the evidence yet, and until they do you can come up with the conclusion that a young Earth is not possible. You cannot say creationism is disproven until you come up with a conclusion yourself.
//"The problem with your six day story is that there IS NO evidence at all to support it."//
So we don"t have evidence? You admitted that scientist can change their ideas and minds when they get new evidence. They haven"t gotten all the evidence. Therefore both are theories and both can"t disprove God.
//"If genesis in not true then it disproves the existence of the BLIBLICAL god, not that there isn't some deist god that created the universe out there. We are debating the Christian god here remember!"//
The main belief is that Jesus is god"s son. This is the main belief of Christianity. If Jesus never existed then that could pretty much disprove the Christian God. There are many theories that are possible other than Genesis, which I believe in.
6.)//"The guy created the universe and man, couldn't he since he knew what man was going to do in the future change man? Or make him different?"//
Right now you sound like you don"t believe in him because you don"t like the way he works.
//"Now it is also true that science has not disproven that a god started the universe, nor can they in the foreseeable future. This DOES NOT mean that your Christian god is real."//
Ok, it doesn"t disprove him either.
//"With the evidence given we can be very sure the universe wasn't made in six days about 6000ish years ago. This DISPROVES the bible and its god, but there could be some deist god out there that made the universe but doesn't take part in it. Those are two very different gods, and since we are debating the god you picked, science can disprove that one."//
"You can be very sure" very sure? That"s not absolutely sure.
Evidence that can be wrong doesn"t disprove anything.
Randwot222 forfeited this round.
Randwot222 forfeited this round.
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