The Instigator
nonprophet
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Christian_Debater
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

God gives us free will

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Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: Select Winner
Started: 4/30/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,948 times Debate No: 53679
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (56)
Votes (0)

 

nonprophet

Con

For this debate, we will pretend god exists
"god" is the god of the Bible
First round is for acceptance ONLY
This is a no-voting debate
Christian_Debater

Pro

First I'd like to apologize for my delayed acceptance of this challenge. I have been busy lately.

Regardless, thank you for inviting me to this debate. I will gladly debate you on this topic on the position that God indeed does give us free will. I will be using the King James Version 1611 for all my citations.
Debate Round No. 1
nonprophet

Con

"god" is the god of the Bible

The god of the Bible is all good, all knowing, all powerful, in all places at once and all just.

So, how can I do anything else but what an all knowing god knows I will do?

That would be impossible.

Also, god supposedly gives me the free will to believe in him or not, yet he uses the threat of hell (eternal torture) to "influence" my "free decision"


https://www.youtube.com...


When your choices have biased consequences, it's not free will.
https://www.youtube.com...

Christian_Debater

Pro

First I'd like to thank you again for the debate. Secondly, I do not have adobe flash player. I would request you do not resort to YouTube for you evidence in further rounds please. Thank you.

Well your first point is about hell and I can argue this. I agree hell is used to warn people because it does exist. However, what about prison?

You are an Atheist. Therefore, you believe your current life is all that matters. Wouldn't prison be equivalent to hell for you then? It is torture, both physically and mentally. It is common knowledge that there are gangs, fights, and tons of violence in prisons (physical torture). Moreover, they are stuck in a cage non-stop which will cause obvious mental problems as shown in many cases (mental torture). If you need a citation that is fine, I will get you one if you request it.

Moreover, it does exactly what you claim. Isn't prison doing what you claim about hell?

I have said that I can not watch the videos. I'd appreciate it if you'd quote, or at least not use video sources. YouTube has lots of non-factual information. It would be best to stick to text sources anyways.

Now to show you what the Bible states on this entire matter. This should end the entire debate. I'm going to post Romans 8:29-30:

Romans 8:29-30
King James Version (KJV)

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So does that mean we have no free will (which is a Calvinist belief if I may add)? No. Some people say with "foreknow" it means that it is the ones he knew ahead of time, but if you read the Bible God knows every hair on your head, he created you, so wouldn't he already of known you? Exactly. In the context of the chapter what this is saying he would know what you do before you even do it. It doesn't mean you have no free will, it just means God is a genius.

Let me give you an example. I have 2 cats. If I come home with cat treats and put them on the floor, I know they will already dart for the treats and eat them. Does it mean they have no free will? Of course it doesn't, they don't have to eat the treats. I just know them better, and I know they will eat them.

So I hope that answers your questions. In my honest opinion, you can't be against hell and not against prison when they perform the same task. Hell exists so Heaven isn't destroyed, just like prisons exists so societies aren't destroyed.

I await your response. May the LORD GOD bless you [please don't get offended] and I appreciate the debate.
Debate Round No. 2
nonprophet

Con

My video from youtube was about a robber who gave his victim a choice: hand over his money or die.
The victim had the "free will" to pick, so the lawyer defending him called it suicide.
See how absurd that is?

God is telling me I have the "free will" to believe in him, while he holds me over the heat of hell. Real free will doesn't have a gun pointed to your head or torture promised to you if you're "wrong".

You're whole rant about jail being torture has nothing to do with free will. It's a straw man argument.

God may be a "genius" but he can't break the natural laws. He can't make a rock he can't lift. He can't make a math problem he can't solve. He can't know what I will do if I have free will, in which case he is NOT all knowing!

So, if you want to say god is all knowing, then I don't have the free will to do anything else besides what he knows I'll do.

Your cat story makes no sense at all. First of all, cats have a survival instinct, which means they will go after food to survive. That's not free will. That's like breathing. You have to breath to survive, even if you choose to hold your breath. If you want to survive, you have to breathe and eat. No choice there.

Also, if they had found a mouse and ate that, they wouldn't be hungry for your treats, so you may THINK you know what they will do, but they may just have eaten and don't want your treats. So you don't know for sure the way god knows for sure.

This was an easy debate. I don't think you understand what "free will" means.


Christian_Debater

Pro

Yes I do. How does that correlate with hell or the Bible? The murderer/robber would be guilty according to the Bible, and the person who died would be innocent. I don't understand your point. You also haven't related it to the Bible at all. I kind of understand what you are getting at here thought, about hell being the robber potentially? Regardless, I will address this more later. My main point was you didn't specifically correlate this to the Bible.

First off, I wasn't ranting about hell. I was telling you how it does the same function as prison. They are almost identical. As for it being torture, it is not a straw man argument at all. I am just showing the parallels between jail/prison and hell. My main point was, how can you be against hell, but not prison? You never answered that. Secondly, like I stated, if you think hell establishes no free will, then why are you not against all prisons in general? Prisons punish people who commit crimes, yet you are not stating that prisons don't give us any free will? According to your logic people wouldn't have any free will with prisons existing because it limits what they are allowed to do [perform crimes].

I would read the Bible. Also, take in account God did create them. I digress, Jesus' birth and same with John the Baptist's birth break natural laws. God can easily make a rock he can't lift, yet he can still lift something he can't lift. God is a spirit [John 4:24] and he can manifest himself in a body [John1:1]. So, all God would have to do is not to use anything spiritual to lift the rock. Say it weighs 10,000 pounds. His flesh body can't lift it. However, if he does like what is Mark 11:23 with the mountain, the rock will easily be lifted/moved. A math problem he can't solve? Well I just showed how the previous example is refuted, you can basically apply it to the next one. However, can you create something without creating it? Of course not, that doesn't mean you are not omniscient. This is a straw man argument that is used often. The definition of omniscient does not require these things. God just needs unlimited knowledge and understanding, which he does have. It does not mean he has to perform the tasks you have outlined [even though I explained how he could do them anyways]. To further prove it, I'll define omniscient:

om"nis"cient/;4;mG2;n=8;@3;ənt/ Show Spelled [om-nish-uhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
noun
2. an omniscient being.
3. the Omniscient, God.

References:
http://dictionary.reference.com...

That is not true. You can know what someone is going to do, and they still have free will. I know that if I put cat treats on the floor, that they will run and eat them. They don't have to do it, they have free will, but I know what they will do. Refer to Romans 8:29-30 on this exact matter.

God knowing what you will do does not restrain from what you can do. Read Romans 1 on the homosexuals who perverted God's image and who he was, and regardless of what he did, they'd never listen to him. Therefore, he let them do what they wanted because they'd never listen to him. So no, your claim is false.

Yes it does, you just don't want it to. Cats eating treats is not a survival instinct, but fine, I'll give you another example. Someone has not eaten in days, and are starving to death. If I give them bananas, they will eat them. Or let me change from food to something else. If you act sexy to your spouse and you bring them to the bedroom, you will have intercourse. Now you can say these are all survival instincts etc., but come on now. We can go against our survival instincts. If not, then we'd have no free will, right?

I think you misunderstand completely. I have refuted all of your arguments. You claim I am using a straw man argument when that is what you did yourself. You haven't shown that God does not give us free will, according to the Bible. Also, according to the logic you used, none of us have free will because prison exists. Your own logic ruined your argument, because you didn't elaborate on my argument about prisons. Also your argument on instincts, let alone it be for cats, would mean some animals have no free will either. So what is it?

In conclusion, I have refuted all of my opponent's arguments. My opponent never answered my question on prisons. I have shown how God does give us free will, even though he knows what we are going to do. I thank my opponent for this debate, and may the LORD GOD bless you all.

On a final note, vote for who you want via the comment section unless you have a high enough elo rating.
Debate Round No. 3
56 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Christian_Debater 3 years ago
Christian_Debater
From the context of the debate, he meant THE LORD.
Posted by Migrating_Hacker 3 years ago
Migrating_Hacker
He said to pretend "god" exist ,but what god does he mean God or god "idol".By saying god is putting God's name in vain which is a sin according to Exodus 20:7 God is Jehovah and god is Satan so specify what god your talking about. ok
Posted by Migrating_Hacker 3 years ago
Migrating_Hacker
He said to pretend "god" exist ,but what god does he mean God or god "idol".By saying god is putting God's name in vain which is a sin according to Exodus 20:7 God is Jehovah and god is Satan so specify what god your talking about. ok
Posted by Migrating_Hacker 3 years ago
Migrating_Hacker
He said to pretend "god" exist ,but what god does he mean God or god "idol".By saying god is putting God's name in vain which is a sin according to Exodus 20:7 God is Jehovah and god is Satan so specify what god your talking about. ok
Posted by Christian_Debater 3 years ago
Christian_Debater
Hey Zmowlcher, just so you know, before you put a religious thing as your picture [I know the character is from demon souls but it represents a religion] you should probably do more research into sun worship.

Bible verses about sun worshippers:

2 Kings 23:5 [baal is a demon btw if you read that verse], Ezekiel 8:16 [sun worshippers turning their backs towards the church].

Just two verses for ya. So now to show some resources outside the Bible on sun worship and what your character there from DS is actually worshipping:

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Keep in mind, the Egyptians and Jews weren't exactly friends. There is more places that worship the sun in other religions and what not and have sun symbolism. Just keep in mind, they were usually against Christianity.

Since you are an agnostic, I would hope you change your picture now.
Posted by ZMowlcher 3 years ago
ZMowlcher
You guys are ridiculous.
Posted by Christian_Debater 3 years ago
Christian_Debater
nonprophet, you keep reposting the same argument, you have yet to answer my question.

Your whole argument is that Hell, because it is a punishment for ___ action, restricts free will.

Therefore, Prison, which has punishments for ___ action, restricts free will.

Therefore, Prisons create no free will according to your logic. If you are against hell and say it restricts free will, then you can't say prisons don't do the same.

As for the aspects and characteristics of hell, we can debate that another time. That is not on the topic of free will, that we are debating, whatsoever [it is just a straw man you are using to try and avoid the question on prison]
Posted by Christian_Debater 3 years ago
Christian_Debater
nonprophet, you keep reposting the same argument, you have yet to answer my question.

Your whole argument is that Hell, because it is a punishment for ___ action, restricts free will.

Therefore, Prison, which has punishments for ___ action, restricts free will.

Therefore, Prisons create no free will according to your logic. If you are against hell and say it restricts free will, then you can't say prisons don't do the same.

As for the aspects and characteristics of hell, we can debate that another time. That is not on the topic of free will, that we are debating, whatsoever [it is just a straw man you are using to try and avoid the question on prison]
Posted by DeeAnn 3 years ago
DeeAnn
I believe Con won this debate because I saw through all of Pro's arguments. However if this was a 7 point system I would have awarded Pro some points as well.
Posted by nonprophet 3 years ago
nonprophet
You can't compare hell to a prison.

Hell is an infinite punishment for a finite "crime"
Hell is not for rehabilitation, it's for revenge.
The crime that sends you to hell is a simple non-belief in a god.

Prison is is for rehabilitation since you get released and get a second chance.
Prison is not forever.
You don't go to prison for thinking something.
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