The Instigator
SavedByChrist94
Pro (for)
Winning
2 Points
The Contender
loveu157
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

God has to Allow Suffering, Problem of Suffering Refuted Indubitably

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Post Voting Period
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after 2 votes the winner is...
SavedByChrist94
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/31/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,028 times Debate No: 31941
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (2)

 

SavedByChrist94

Pro

From my Blog, Why it is Immoral for God(YHWH) not to directly allow then stop suffering.

Now before we start key words, Directly and Indirectly.

Directly prevent means, God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) prevents suffering by appearing.

Indirectly means He prevents or ends suffering Indirectly but through human beings or other resources which wouldn't break free will.

God is YHWH(Who is The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) and this a fact that I'll debate anyone against, so for all those of other religions I consider you "atheist"'s for rejecting The Real God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

Lets get straight desert with the point,

2 Scenario's,

Scenario 1:

I prevent person A from tripping, and because of that a majority of humanity dies and Person A never learns to watch their step

Scenario 2, I allow someone to trip, they learn from that and because of allowing it someone else lives.

Which is immoral, 1 or 2? Obvious 1, I should have allowed a person A to trip for 2 reasons, 1 to prevent this person from tripping again as this person will learn from this accident to watch his step, and 2, others get to live.

Now that was just a Scenario to make the Real examples easy to understand.

Example 1, God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) allows finite suffering, the suffering prevents the sufferer from ever doing evil as they learn evil causes what they hated which was suffering(thus living with YHWH for eternity) and another person gets to live as they can repent.

Example 2, God prevents finite suffering, The Sufferer doesn't learn from suffering thus somewhere in eternity sins and causes more suffering, by the prevention Free Will is broken, and others cannot repent, thus for the prevention of this finite suffering, someone dies for all eternity and never gets a chance at Eternal life.

Which is moral and which is immoral? If you are a Moral person then obvious Example 1 is Moral and 2 is Immoral,

what does this have to do with Theodicy?

Well if God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) allows someone to suffer, that person experiences suffering, why is that a good thing? well by experiencing the suffering, and knowing that sin causes suffering, if the person when they reach Heaven/The New Earth, since they know they have it all(In Heaven) and know how it is to suffer, they will not sin again, and thus suffering is ended for all eternity

So right there is it Moral for God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) to allow suffering, as this would prevent them from sinning, thus allowing them to live for eternity, and preventing further evil(Lack of good, suffering, Sin)

Also by allowing suffering free will isn't broken, if God(YHWH) prevents a finite suffer, then He must appear, if He appears an evil person can never truly repent, as they would never be sorry but just wanting God(Imagine n evil mobster, never repents, isn't sorry for his evil, then Jesus Christ appears and he acts all sorry, eg, Matthew 7:22-23, Jesus Christ "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"), and if that evil person cannot repent they will be judged to eternal punishment(Annihilation).

1 Fact we know as True, when Jesus Christ returns to Save us, our past suffering won't be a big deal,

Romans 8 -
Present Suffering and Future Glory
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
Revelation 21:4 - "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death"[a] or mourning or crying or pain,for the old order of things has passed away."

Now since all the suffering will be like a pinch, why then should someone else die for all eternity because one couldn't suffer? if one suffers finite, then they will not sin ever again, live happily for eternity(if they repent), and another can repent of their sin and evil.

How is allowing suffering and THEN ending it, evil? I would argue Not Allowing and then ending it is evil, God has to allow finite suffering until a right time, and then end it(Second Coming of Jesus Christ) all at once.

So if God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) directly allows suffering(doesn't cause but allows), He creates an Eternity for them and their free will as they won't ever sin again, allows others the chance to Repent due to His mercy thus allowing Eternal life for them, and ends Suffering for All Eternity.

If God prevents finite suffering(say for example rape), then another person cannot repent and will cease to exist for forever, that potential rape victim will eventually sin and potentially never repent thus also dying, and suffering will go on in a cycle forever and ever.

It is therefore Immoral for God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) to Directly prevent suffering and Moral for God(YHWH) to Directly allow and the end(all at once) suffering.

Also we could argue that God by not directly preventing suffering doesn't really allow suffering since The Suffering will only be finite and be like a pinch(as Paul said it's not worthy to compare), also God doesn't Really allow suffering, He just directly doesn't prevent it, He Indirectly(one of the key words) prevents it through humanity(The Father, and The Son and The Holy Spirit is The One that causes one to do good)

So recap, God is Moral for directly allowing suffering for these reasons,

1, it prevents the sufferer from ever sinning again when Saved, thus allowing them to live eternally and preventing suffering for all eternity(and the cycle of it)

2, allows another to repent as free will wouldn't be broken by the prevention and the person can repent, they repent and live forever, thus it is moral to allow finite suffering(which will be no big deal one day) so that the sufferer and another person live forever with God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit), without suffering, sin, and death, and this is Directly in line with The Bible, watch this,

2 Corinthians 4:17
For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison

Now keep this in mind, as Jesus Christ our Lord and God(YHWH) said,

"A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world."

Now that is WHILE we are in suffering and the suffering feels bad, now imagine no more death, suffering, pain, etc, and the suffering was no big deal, and it prevents you from sinning and suffering, and it allows another to repent and live forever.

It is therefore proven to be Immoral if God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) prevents suffering directly(by appearing) and is Moral for God(YHWH) to directly allow, indirectly through humans prevent and then end all suffering.
loveu157

Con

I think this will be interesting. I accept your debate.

I would like to tell you that not all people learn from their mistakes and some people do good but still suffer.

example 1: say a con-man continues to con for the rest of his life and becomes rich and has a happy life. If lying and stealing is said to be wrong then why will this man prosper for it.

example 2: a baby is born in a poor income country. This baby is very innocent. the baby is not able to rob a bank or even talk. The family has been a good family but they still suffer. The motors breast is like a pencil and barley gives any milk. The baby becomes unhealthy and starts to die.

If god makes people suffer because of their mistakes then why do good people live sad lives and bad people live happy rich lives. I see this as the main flaw in belief of god.
Debate Round No. 1
SavedByChrist94

Pro

"I would like to tell you that not all people learn from their mistakes and some people do good but still suffer."

It's not about learning from mistakes, read again. I'll copy and Paste,

"example 1: say a con-man continues to con for the rest of his life and becomes rich and has a happy life. If lying and stealing is said to be wrong then why will this man prosper for it."

Because somehow in this world, he prospered, YHWH made free will, the con-mans free will and humanity's free will caused it.

"example 2: a baby is born in a poor income country. This baby is very innocent. the baby is not able to rob a bank or even talk. The family has been a good family but they still suffer. The motors breast is like a pencil and barley gives any milk. The baby becomes unhealthy and starts to die."

And the baby will be given Eternal Life and like Paul said, Romans 8:18 - "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us."

If god makes people suffer because of their mistakes then why do good people live sad lives"

Because this world is evil and man is evil.

"and bad people live happy rich lives. I see this as the main flaw in belief of god."

Bad people somehow got ahead, all Free Will and Man's Choice.

Why does YHWH have to allow it? If He prevents it and appears to us Free Will is broken and bad people wouldn't be able to repent and would go to Hell(Which is Death), do you believe that it is fair for evil men not to get a chance to repent because YHWH prevented finite suffering which will be made no big deal in eternity?

I don't think that's fair, I know that YHWH allows suffering so that free will isn't broken and sinners can repent, those who suffer won't care as suffering on this earth will be no big deal in Eternity.
loveu157

Con

I see you are a strong believer in god and christ.

I don't think you understand that not everyone has a perfect life. I have done community service at many soup kitchens. I see these people come in here who have nothing and are the nicest people. why must they suffer because of there landlord kicking them out or because their job fires them.

You also said that there is glory that will come to us. That is incorrect. I said the baby dies and no her doesn't go to heaven because there is no heaven and the con-man doesn't go to hell because there is no hell. both of them will die and they will both die how they were. you can't suck up how your life is right now and say that you will go to heaven. If you do that you live your life.

If God existed he would be an truly evil man.

you said something about free will. yeah people do make choices in their lives that change the outcome. But what about people whose house gets robes. It wasn't their fault that they got robed.

(please exuse my bad english)
Debate Round No. 2
SavedByChrist94

Pro

"I don't think you understand that not everyone has a perfect life."

I didn't say anyone has a perfect life, as a matter of fact no one in this world has one, Perfect life will come at The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ.

"why must they suffer because of there landlord kicking them out or because their job fires them."

Man did that, how is that YHWH/God's fault?

"If God existed he would be an truly evil man."

How? Also we aren't here to insult people, I ask you, what have you done for anyone? Did you create the universe out of nothing? No, did you allow suffering so that suffering could end? No, did you create life? No, how can you be so hypocritical.

"you said something about free will. yeah people do make choices in their lives that change the outcome. But what about people whose house gets robes. It wasn't their fault that they got robed."

Of course, but it's due to FREE WILL, who WILLED the robbery? Not YHWH, the men who did it choose to do it.

I think you did not read the argument, read this,

Scenario 1:

I prevent person A from tripping, and because of that a majority of humanity dies and Person A never learns to watch their step

Scenario 2, I allow someone to trip, they learn from that and because of allowing it someone else lives.

Which is immoral, 1 or 2? Obvious 1, I should have allowed a person A to trip for 2 reasons, 1 to prevent this person from tripping again as this person will learn from this accident to watch his step, and 2, others get to live.

YHWH(The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) Morally allows suffering, why? shown right up there ^
loveu157

Con

Im sorry if I insulted you. That was never my intention.

2 questions:

If god knows all and knows what it right then why would he let people rob a house?

How do you know that people will be saved and how do you know that christ will come back?

(ps. Im a little confused but not to much)
(pps. please exuse my bad english i have dyslexia)
Debate Round No. 3
SavedByChrist94

Pro

"If god knows all and knows what it right then why would he let people rob a house?"

Read what I first wrote all over again, I proved that YHWH allows for example a house to be robbed, not because He doesn't exist or care, He really exists the reason He allows suffering/bad things to happen is so that people can repent, if He doesn't allow bad things(which will be no big deal in Eternity) then others can't repent and go to Hell(Death) for eternity for what they did as they cannot repent or because they don't want to. YHWH allows suffering because He is merciful to allow bad people to say sorry and be forgiven, which is amazing, the suffering YHWH allows makes this possible, the suffering will be a big deal at all when we go to Heaven/New Earth, Read,

From YHWH's Word, The Bible,

Romans 8 -
Present Suffering and Future Glory
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
Revelation 21:4 - "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death"[a] or mourning or crying or pain,for the old order of things has passed away."

"How do you know that people will be saved and how do you know that christ will come back?"

Because YHWH(The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) exists, study science, history etc,

The Bible is Scientifically and Historically Accurate, if there are any contradictions it is about 5 or less which is nothing, and it's proven True.
Jesus Christ Historical Resurrection is a Fact
The Shroud of Turin is Scientifically Supernatural
First Uncaused Cause
Fine Tuning
Morality cannot exist without YHWH
Intelligent Design
"macro-evolution" is Scientifically false
demonic Activity
Substance Dualism
loveu157

Con

look I'm getting tired of this argument

these scriptures prove nothing you can't prove to me that they are all scientifically accurate I'm not going to say much but I'm going to talk about this

Jesus Christ Historical Resurrection is a Fact
The Shroud of Turin is Scientifically Supernatural
First Uncaused Cause
Fine Tuning
Morality cannot exist without YHWH
Intelligent Design
"macro-evolution" is Scientifically false
demonic Activity
Substance Dualism

most of these are not proven give me science then we will talk more

(the reason I'm somewhat giving up on this is because I have found it is hard to talk to a very religious person about god)
Debate Round No. 4
SavedByChrist94

Pro

Study each of those listed then you will find The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit, if not then it's an emotional issue in which I suggest you read YHWH's Word directly.
loveu157

Con

You don't get it your not using anything but the supposed gods word that has many different interpretations. I don't know why i accepted this debate. vote for whoever the hell you want.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by loveu157 4 years ago
loveu157
I ment to say *live your life shortly*
Posted by SavedByChrist94 4 years ago
SavedByChrist94
Free will and Suffering Factually exist, therefore Argument is Conclusive, There is no Problem of Suffering
Posted by Magic8000 4 years ago
Magic8000
Your whole argument assumes that free will and suffering must exist together.
Posted by SavedByChrist94 4 years ago
SavedByChrist94
Nope, Morally He's going to allow it Directly, prevent it Indirectly(through Human Conscious) and stop suffering all at once(Jesus Christ 2nd Coming). Read The Scenarios to understand why.

Read The Whole Thing again if you have concerns debate or ask me on the comments.
Posted by Diirez 4 years ago
Diirez
Just to be clear, you're arguing that it would be immoral for God to stop suffering?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Pennington 4 years ago
Pennington
SavedByChrist94loveu157Tied
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Total points awarded:20 
Reasons for voting decision: I was not convinced at Pro's or Con's arguments. Pro made a lot of assumptions without anything to comfirm them. Con never really showed the wholes in Pro's case. I give neither arguments. Pro did hang in there and made a argument so I give him conduct. I also thought he had better spelling.
Vote Placed by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
SavedByChrist94loveu157Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: I didnt buy the whole "He lets bad things happen so that people can repent" argument since this does not explain why God allows excessively bad things to happen such as the Holocaust or any genocide. That being said though con's arguments were non-existent and he appears to have been confused over what was even being debated in the first place. Neither side used sources either so I cant allocate points since both sides sucked pretty bad