The Instigator
Sandy_358
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
LuciferWept
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

God hates homosexuals.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
LuciferWept
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/4/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 649 times Debate No: 102889
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (1)

 

Sandy_358

Pro

I believe that God hates homosexuals for reasons that will be discussed in this debate. Your job is to defend your belief that God doesn't hate homosexuals. I wish you good luck, and let the best debater win!
LuciferWept

Con

How can that which does not exist hate?

Please, define God.

I would doubt that the majority of gods worshipped worldwide hate homosexuals.
Debate Round No. 1
Sandy_358

Pro

Sorry for my informality, I know very little about debating.
You have a great point, I agree that something that doesn't exist can't express emotions.
That aside, hypothetically, if a god exists, according to the bible, does he hate homosexuals?
Personally, I would say that he, if existant, does hate gays. A verse that supports my opinion is Levictus 20:13.
LuciferWept

Con

Okay, so we have narrowed it down to two possible Gods: the Jewish God and the Christian God. And yes, there are differences, such as the Jewish God is one single entity as one God while the Christian God (unless you adhere to Arianism) is three entities making up one God. There are other differences, but since you have opted for the term "Bible" and not "Torah", then I shall assume you mean the Christian God.

Presupposing the tenants of Christianity, one should note that the religion revolves around two main concepts: First, that Christ was born of a Virgin (which has no bearing on this argument) and Second, that Jesus died for the sins of every single human who has ever lived and will ever lived. Essentially, the theology believes that Man was barred from Heaven after the events of Chapter 2 in Genesis. Jesus died in order to lift this prohibition, thus suffering and dying in the place of all of mankind. Jesus, according to Christianity, is God. Thus, God died for the sins of Man.

Homosexuality is considered a sin in Christianity[1]. This is evidenced by the Bible Verse Pro provides as well as several others. Taking this and the Christian reasoning for the death of Christ, we know that Jesus (God) died for homosexuals as well as all other sinners.

The Gospel According to John states "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13)[2].

Now for the second wave of my attack.

Christianity also condemnes hatred.

Christianity, as well as many religious philosophers who were not Christian (such as Spinoza) state that God is good. All that comes from God is good, as that God is good. (Simply put, God is good, so nothing he wills can be evil. So everything he wills is good). "Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them." (1 John 2:9-11) [3]. Thus, it is to be believed that hatred is a sin. Sin is evil, thus God cannot hate, since he cannot sin since he cannot be evil.

Since all that comes from God is good, then that includes homosexuals. Now, this does not mean that God accepts the act, but he does not hate the persons committing the act. Hence the sin is punished, and according to Christianity, the death of Christ was the act by which sin was made forgivable.

So no, according to Christianity, God does not hate homosexuals.

[1] http://www.allaboutgod.com...
[2] https://www.biblegateway.com...
[3] https://www.biblegateway.com...






Debate Round No. 2
Sandy_358

Pro

I disagree.
God has shown hatred multiple times throughout the Bible.
Examples of this are:
Lectuvus 20:23
Lectuvus 26:30
Deuteronomy 32:19
Psalm 5:6
Psalm 10:3
Malachi 1:3
Romans 9:13
These verses simply prove that God has the ability to hate and, therefore, doesn't express unconditional love for all. They don't particularly prove that God hates homosexuals.

There is evidence, that God, of the Christian faith, hates homosexuals.
By definition, an abomination is "anything greatly disliked or abhorred" (according to dictionary.com).
Referring back to Lectivus 20:13, it states that homosexuality is an abomination. Therefore, God hates homosexuals.
Also, in 1Corinthians 6:9, it states that homosexuality is such a horrendous sin that homosexuals won't be allowed into heaven.
LuciferWept

Con

With regards to the Bible verse provided, you should provide the whole quotes (just a note for future reference). For the sake of voters, I will post them here. [1]

Leviticus 20:23
"And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them."

Leviticus 26:30
"And I will destroy your high places and cut down your incense altars and cast your dead bodies upon the dead bodies of your idols, and my soul will abhor you."

Deuteronomy 32:19
"The LORD saw it and spurned them, because of the provocation of his sons and his daughters."


Psalms 5:6
"You destroy those who speak lies; the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man."

Psalms 10:3
"For the wicked boasts of his heart's desire, And the greedy man curses and spurns the LORD."

Malachi 1:3
"I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, 'How have You loved us?' 'Was not Esau Jacob's brother?' declares the LORD. 'Yet I have loved Jacob; but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert'"

Romans 9:13
"As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' "

Now, before I begin my primary assault, I must point out that Romans 9:13 is clearly a reference to Malachi 1:3, and the purpose of this letter was to question whether or not God is just. However, as that this is a reference to the Old Testament, and not a creation in the New Testament, it should not be considered part of the Christian God, but of the Jewish God. Between those two, I have already written the contrast. However, allow me to illustrate the contrast a little more.

Religions evolve into other religions, case in point, Judaism spawned Christianity, but Christianity is not Judaism. It has a Trinity for a God instead of a Unitary God. Christians believe the Messiah has already arrived and Jews believe that they await the Messiah. In other religions, similar differences can be noted. Asatru, the religion that centers around Odin and Thor, evolved from a religion which was without Odin. Instead, the King of the Gods of the (very) ancient Norse was Tiwaz, who in Asatru became Tyr[2], the God of Justice and War. Tiwaz and Tyr are, in essence, different entities, as that one had supreme authority and the other does not. Likewise, Tiwaz evolved from Deiwaz, a very primitive Indo-European deity who might have been the "ancestor" of not only Tiwaz and Tyr, but also of Zeus and Jupiter. In Asatru today, there is still a divide, which might be comparable even more so the difference between Christianity and Judaism. In Odinist or Theodist Asatru, Odin is the ruler of Aesir and has no equals. In Nordic Asatru, he has a rival in the Vanic Goddess Freyja. Although this may not seem related, I bring this up to demonstrate that religions evolve and change over time. So, just as we do not reference the Qu'ran when discussing the Christian God, even though both religions are deviations on the first Abrahamic Faith, we cannot bring up the Judaism when discussing the aspects of the Christian God.

So, what differences are there between the Jewish and Christian God (beyond Trinity vs. Singular)? For one, the Christian God demands that adherents go out and seek converts. Many religions of the ancient world (that is before the establishment of the Roman Empire) were what are now called Folk Religions. Whereas Christians and Muslims dismiss the existence of Odin or Zeus or Shiva outright, saying there can be only one God, ancient Folk Religions recognized the "validity" of one another's Gods. So ancient Jews did not dismiss the existence of Moloch, but viewed the deity as something evil and worshipped by wicked Canaanites[3]. For example, Leviticus 18:21 says "You shall not give any of your children to devote them by fire to Moloch, and so profane the name of your God". This verse does not deny the existence of Moloch, in fact it implies an affirmation of Moloch's existence. However, the Christian believer denies the existence of Moloch on the grounds that there is but one God. Due to this difference, the verse you chose from Romans is little more than a quote, and not an attribute of the Christian God.

This is important as that the central figure of Christianity is not Moses or Abraham, but the Incarnation of God, i.e. Jesus. A Folk God, such as the Jewish God, is concerned only with the good of the people who worship him (hence why so many ancient Greek Cities chose a specific patron deity) and not with others. The Christian God, however, interacts with a non-Jew when he heals the Centurion's servant. The followers of Jesus, the Apostles, go out beyond the Jews to seek out converts to Christianity. Judaism does not actively seek out converts (although it is possible to convert)[4]. Finally, Paul's letters to the Romans, the Galatians, the Colossians, etc. are all to other groups who were not Jews. This means that Christianity is not Judaism, and merely adopts its Scriptures, but not its practices.

Now, let us assume that Jesus did only come for the Jews, as some theologians have speculated. In fact, let us examine 1 Corinthians 6:9. "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality". 1 Corinithians 6:10 continues the damning "or thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God". The list appears to be very great. And the entire chapter and the following one goes on condemning all forms of sexual excess, such as prostitution, touching women, etc. All of these sins, does the Christian God hate all of these persons. If so, then this God must have hated the entire human race! So much for the God of Love....

However, according to Christian theology, Jesus died for every person's sins. This includes homosexuals. The Christian God hates the sin, not the sinner (to use the cliche). Again, John 15:13 states "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." Now, you could claim that Jesus excludes homosexuals, however, you'd have to include the full Scripture and condemn all women who have had sex outside of marriage (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die"). And also don't forget those girls who are raped who do not scream for help (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 "If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you").

So, if this Jesus was the Christian God, as is claimed, and he died for all sins, then no, God does not hate homosexuals. Jesus dying for all sins is the central tenant of Christianity.

However, if he did not die for all sins (as you imply) because of hatred, that contradicts the central tenant of the Christian Faith, and allows us to doubt Romans 4:24-25 "It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification." This means that can doubt the central tenant of Christianity, that Jesus died for our sins. Since we can doubt the primary miracle of Jesus, we can doubt the other miracles as well. So now we can logically doubt the existence of the Christian God.

So again I ask,

How can that which does not exist hate?

[1] http://biblehub.com... (all verses taken from the English Standard Version)
[2] https://www.britannica.com...
[3] https://www.britannica.com...
[4] http://www.interfaithfamily.com...













Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Sardukar 7 months ago
Sardukar
@luciferwept

Should have asked for what you required to proceed in the comments before the debate started.

The joker hates batman. The joker does not exist. The joker still hates batman in the context he is presented in.

The debate topic is under religious not philosophical.

Just seems like you are not arguing in good faith when people do that.
Posted by LuciferWept 7 months ago
LuciferWept
You would have done better to argue from the perspective of the Jewish God. The New Testament gives me too much to work with.

and @Sardukar, it's a perfectly logical question. A: I needed him to more clearly define God, which he did. and B: if something does not exist, then how can it hate?
Posted by SJM 7 months ago
SJM
@Sandy_358 The verse says only "men who have sex with men", this is the same as just saying men who act on their tendencies. God may not like the act and not hate the sinner, they're not mutually exclusive. Hence the phrase "hate the sin, not the sinner". Not only that, but you're missing out on the burden of proving the word hate. Where in the verse that you quoted does it show that God "hates" these people? God simply says they won't inherit the kingdom. It's not like God hates sinners, if that were the case then everybody would be hated considering everyone is a sinner.
Posted by Sandy_358 7 months ago
Sandy_358
@SJW
The point that you've made is true.
The verse that I have stated was only about homosexual acts, not homosexual desires or homosexual marriage in general.
I wish to direct your attention to 1Corinthians 6:9-11. In this verse, it says that if sinners don't repent, they won't be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. It then proceeds to list traits of sinners. This list includes homosexuals. It is still debatable if this pertains to homosexual acts, or simply homosexual intentions.
Posted by Sandy_358 7 months ago
Sandy_358
@SJW
The point that you've made is true.
The verse that I have stated was only about homosexual acts, not homosexual desires or homosexual marriage in general.
I wish to direct your attention to 1Corinthians 6:9-11. In this verse, it says that if sinners don't repent, they won't be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. It then proceeds to list traits of sinners. This list includes homosexuals. It is still debatable if this pertains to homosexual acts, or simply homosexual intentions.
Posted by Sardukar 7 months ago
Sardukar
Cons first statement lol.

"How can that which does not exist hate?"

Pro obviously does not want a debate about if God exists but if God hates homosexuals. It's just stupid to even bring up the question "does God exists" in this particular debate because its clear to anyone with any sort of awareness that's not whats being argued.

Now pro is immediately on the defensive and has to waste time and words going through the motions and explaining stuff that's already a given.

Sure maybe Pro should have specified weather the debate was about the Jewish, Christian or Islamic God but all three versions are from the Abrahamic faith and use most of the same arguments anyway.

Just seems to me Con is trying to derail the spirit of what the debate is supposed to be about.

"if God exists" is an entirely different subject then Gods traits and actions.
Posted by Sandy_358 7 months ago
Sandy_358
The verse says that if a man lays with another man, they should be put to death. That means that if a man does "it" with another man, they should be killed, according to the Bible.
Posted by Sandy_358 7 months ago
Sandy_358
The verse says that if a man lays with another man, they should be put to death. That means that if a man does "it" with another man, they should be killed, according to the Bible.
Posted by Sandy_358 7 months ago
Sandy_358
The verse says that if a man lays with another man, they should be put to death. That means that if a man does "it" with another man, they should be killed, according to the Bible.
Posted by Sandy_358 7 months ago
Sandy_358
The verse says that if a man lays with another man, they should be put to death. That means that if a man does "it" with another man, they should be killed, according to the Bible.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Manastacious 5 months ago
Manastacious
Sandy_358LuciferWeptTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro fails BOP. Con is easy winner.