The Instigator
Manuel-Crespo
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Cookie777
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

God is Evil

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/24/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 456 times Debate No: 90140
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
Votes (0)

 

Manuel-Crespo

Pro

Hello and welcome to this debate. This is the first debate I've created.

I will argue that God is evil. Con will argue that God isn't evil. In this argument we will not argue God's existence.

I think that God is evil because it is given that He's omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent, yet evil exists in this imperfect world. Ergo, there are three options: God isn't omnipotent, God is evil or God doesn't exist. Because we are not arguing God's existence, I propose that God is evil.
Cookie777

Con

Because Evil exists cannot offer PROOF that God is Evil...because Good also exists. You would be jumping assumptions to conclude this. That God is all knowing, all powerful and all good does NOT contradict the existence of Evil.
By virtue of 'what is' we cannot say good is ever evil or evil is ever good.
They stand alone.
What one can conclude is that the story within our Bible and other texts are telling of ONE contradictory thing...God created the Angels 'to not be able to die.' He maintains control of them but this was not always so as we are told of a huge battle when Lucifer and his 1/3 of angels (demons) tried to take control of God's domain.
So obviously God made a 'mistake' in creating creatures that He could not totally destroy. Mistakes are not either 'Evil' or 'Good' ....both sides of those contrasts can make mistakes.
Gods incapacity to understand EVIL by virtue of his unadulterated GOOD created that 'mistake.'

The truth of his great power lies in how He turned that Evil to GOOD. Who of us would know a difference or learned true sympathy or empathy or built TRUE character without the results of Evil.

Living through 'BAD (Evil)' is what can create the greatest and most powerfully of exceptional character and what creates the people who can overcome the world to become 'good souls' worthy of becoming a value to our existence and beyond.
Debate Round No. 1
Manuel-Crespo

Pro

If God can't understand evil by virtue, does that makes him not omniscient? If God made a mistake, does that makes him not omnipotent?

If God is all powerful then He made things just as he wanted and if He sees all then He knew evil would exist. But given that He doesn't understand evil then He isn't all powerful. Nevertheless, scripture says the following:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." [Isaiah 45:7]

So He knew what He was doing. He could even prevent evil. Something infinitely good can't make systems that result in a bad consequence unless He isn't all powerful.
Cookie777

Con

"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He," (Deut. 32:4).
"Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor," (Hab. 1:13).
The translation of EVIL...in your posted argument is often translated for other 'words' which most often are indicative of the word CALAMITY as a purer translation...the original word was 'Rah.'
You are confusing the word EVIL....with the actual truth that God often does interfere in our lives and that of those before us to cause 'problems' that CHASTISE us and that TEACH us things we need to learn.
Just like any good parent!!!

EVIL is the creation of Satan and quite often the CHOICE of men.
God gives us FREE CHOICE and while He may forgive us when we learn our lessons we still suffer the human consequences on this Earth for what we do....what others who have done wrong has caused us....and sometimes what God sees fit to put us through to make us much better human beings.

The Ultimate goal of course is making us (as many as possible) FIT to be a spirit being and to add goodness to God's realm.

Your use of the word EVIL is the problem here....you are confusing punishment or our God giving us 'lessons' for immoral EVIL. The two are quite horribly different.
Debate Round No. 2
Manuel-Crespo

Pro

If Satan is evil, then who made Satan? Who knew that evil would come from it and who could have prevented it? Is it just to create injustice?

He could have made a better world than the one we live now, with no need to learn from "calamities" or "evil" things. We wouldn't need choice because we wouldn't need to choose between good or evil because evil wouldn't exist. To put choice in the equation is to put evil in the equation. Wouldn't it be easier to just create something purely good? Why create an angel that could turn evil so He could sacrifice Himself to Himself so He could save us from the choices He put there in the first place?

Evil is evil. To have infinite wisdom and yet create the possibility of evil is an evil thing indeed.
Cookie777

Con

I have already stated...Satan was an Angel created by God. The Bible and other relevent texts say this.
It is only man's very limited and minute mind that would seek to create the argument that God should have given you and others on this planet something better than life is!!!
HOW HORRIBLY MINIMIZING of the grand scheme of things your argument truly is!!
God should have 'GAVE YOU (us) better????
Yes it is a GIMME kinda world isn't it?? Lol!
Would you have us all robots? Incapable of feeling pain or empathy or great feeling because we have LIVED with 'bad' to a point we FEEL its result? Or incapable of fully feeling the happiness of good things in life because we have good all the time to spite how we live or what we do???
I don't believe people would welcome being robots. I don't think life would be worth living that way...it DOES take some deep thought.
Your attempt at play on words distracts from the pointed issue you raise!
God does not appear to have known that Evil would come from Satan or any of the Angels He created...like I said before creating them to not be able to be destroyed was a mistake...likely because in the body of all 'goodness' even God would have a hard time believing any creation might choose EVIL over GOOD!
No way to get around the making of a mistake here which would also fall short of what some people think in their view of God...but making a mistake is NOT THE SAME as intentionally promoting EVIL!!!
The type of world you present is one I sure would not want to live in....who wants to live with little emotion due to lack of depth of life and results of one's own choices. What kind of people would we be??
The only REAL goodness comes from those who have saw true EVIL. It takes one to build the other!!
What strength of character CHOICE builds!

If we question God and Evil within our God...then we should also be questioning it within ourselves! Pointing that energy to our own lives is much more practical than trying to define God and turn the GOODNESS he gave us (THAT WE TURNED BAD) into our focus which then obviously turns to bitterness as we play the BLAME game with God...instead of looking to our own being for the strength to become GOOD...fight EVIL and live life productively.
Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ErectileReptile 7 months ago
ErectileReptile
You should read previous comments before you ask redundant and already answered questions. And for one thing, show some respect, I am not here to debate the existence of God. I do not care in the slightest about your feelings toward religion, be disrespectful and annoying all you want, that is no concern of mine.
Posted by Woolfmann 7 months ago
Woolfmann
Yes it is true, Gnosticism existed long before the invention of Judaism & Christianity, but, it does not disprove the idea that a 'loving god' is the only truth. The idea that all things had to be made by an intelligent, other-worldly being is ludicrous! If you so-called 'god' is loving & all-knowing, then why did he create evil? He must of known that Lucifer would betray him, so why didn't he stop him? The fact remains is that god cannot be good or evil because god does not exist. The religious fanatics of this world are very wrong. Especially those who practice in the United States. Organize religion is nothing more then a scam & priests are nothing more then snake oil salesmen. It is said that religion is, '...the opium of the masses.' Only small minds cannot comprehend the reality that we are alone in this. No great power is going to swoop down from the sky & rescue us all. The fact that the Judeo-Christian god has already chosen his elect, as in Calvinist Christianity, & & sentenced the rest of us to the pains of hell & suffering for all eternity, is nothing but proof that if god does exist, he is a monster,
Posted by Heirio 7 months ago
Heirio
"only love can summon a response of love, which is the one thing God wants from us and the reason he created us."

Then why hasn't God given a display of love?
Posted by ErectileReptile 7 months ago
ErectileReptile
Gnosticism includes many belief systems, and some did define God that way, but a more complete and historical definition of Gnosticism would be:

A collective name for a large number of greatly-varying and pantheistic-idealistic sects, which flourished from some time before the Christian Era down to the fifth century, and which, while borrowing the phraseology and some of the tenets of the chief religions of the day, and especially of Christianity, held matter to be a deterioration of spirit, and the whole universe a depravation of the Deity, and taught the ultimate end of all being to be the overcoming of the grossness of matter and the return to the Parent-Spirit, which return they held to be inaugurated and facilitated by the appearance of some God-sent Saviour.

However unsatisfactory this definition may be, the obscurity, multiplicity, and wild confusion of Gnostic systems will hardly allow of another. Many scholars, moreover, would hold that every attempt to give a generic description of Gnostic sects is labor lost.

Put simply, they thought that God was "understandable and knowable"
Modern Agnostics think they know what agnostic means, but the original meaning was "a believer in god who thinks that god is a mystery and not for mortal understanding"
The Gnostics of the Jewish and early Christians thought that you could have a 'personal relationship" with God and/or Jesus, could talk to them as you would a friend and get an answer that was just for you. The Agnostics thought such an idea was blaspheme.
The Gnostics thought God was just what he said he is "all things all the time" which includes evil.
Posted by Woolfmann 7 months ago
Woolfmann
Of course none of you have pointed out Gnostic influence in the Holy Bible. For every passage that states 'god is good' I can point out many other that state otherwise. Gnosticism precepts point to the one that most call 'god' that is the god of the Jews, Christians, & Muslims, is in reality, the beast. Gnostic texts made it into the Holy Bible. So I pose this question: if Gnostics believe 'god' is evil, why were their texts included in the Bible?
Posted by Manuel-Crespo 7 months ago
Manuel-Crespo
The comment section is intriguing enough. I read this short book a long time ago. Maybe y'all find it interesting as I did. Unfortunately this link with english translation is from Jstor (accesing it from an university's database should be enough to get it). Here's the link: https://www.jstor.org...

It is from the philosopher Paul Ricoeur, which was a believer (had a pentecostal's mindset I believe, or at least he was good in theology). His work is great, praised both by believers and non-believers (or so I believe). The book is called "Evil, a Challenge to Philosophy and Theology".

I also found this link which with a spanish translation (easier to access than the Jstor link). http://www.pensamientopenal.com.ar...

Note: I don't use Ricoeur's arguments because they are more "historical" than "philosophical", but his thoughts are interesting.
Posted by ErectileReptile 7 months ago
ErectileReptile
Philip Yancey wrote a book that perfectly explained why. He said and I quote, "More amazing is his refusal to perform and to overwhelm. God's terrible insistence on human freedom is so absolute that he granted us the power to live as though he did not exist, to spit in his face, to crucify him. I believe God insists on such restraint because no pyrotechnic displays of omnipotence will achieve the response he desires. Although power can force obedience, only love can summon a response of love, which is the one thing God wants from us and the reason he created us."
Posted by Heirio 7 months ago
Heirio
Then why doesn't he show himself to us so we believe in him?
Posted by ErectileReptile 7 months ago
ErectileReptile
God allows us to make those choices. If he forced us to be good, we"d have no reason to choose him. And since we have that freewill, we often choose ourselves and not him. God allows evil things to happen because if we truly believe in him, then nothing can shake our faith.
Posted by Heirio 7 months ago
Heirio
Reptile, what do you mean?
Do you mean that evil is part of Gods grand plan or something?
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