The Instigator
CapAhab
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Briannj17
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

God is ONE, not a trinity as per the Hebrew Bible

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
CapAhab
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/9/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 402 times Debate No: 85978
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)

 

CapAhab

Pro

To continue this debate with a serious person.

http://www.debate.org...

Round 1 - Opening Arguments Only (No rebuttals)
Round 2 - Rebuttals Only
Round 3 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 4 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 5 - Closing Arguments and Closing Statements

My opponent will have to prove reasonably that G-d is a trinity only by using the Hebrew Bible. The new Testament cannot be used.

Definition of Trinity - Tri-Unity - Complex Unity:

God as three consubstantial persons, expressions, or hypostases: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons"

http://www.gotquestions.org......

Serious debate only.

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is ONE! Deuteronomy 6:1

19. Zechariah 14:9 " And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

This is the foundation of Judaism and one of the main reason why the Jewish people refuse to bow to Jesus. G-d is one, and having three distinct person is polytheism.

But let us first look at the verse showing G-d is one and alone.

THERE IS NONE OTHER LIKE THE LORD
Exodus 8:10
Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

THERE IS NONE BESIDE HIM.
Deuteronomy 4:35
"To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
Deuteronomy 32:12
"The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him.
Deuteronomy 32:39
'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.
Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
Isaiah 45:5
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
Isaiah 44:8
Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'"
Isaiah 45:6
That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other,
18. Joel 2:27 " And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

THERE IS NO OTHER gods
Deuteronomy 4:39
"Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
Isaiah 43:10
"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
Isaiah 45:14
Thus says the LORD, "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature, Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you: 'Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.'"

No other are like HIM.
Exodus 9:14
"For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.
1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.
Isaiah 46:9
"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,

This is clear, G-d is one, there is no other gods beside HIM, He alone deserves worship and for that really reason Jesus is a new arrival god that the Children of Israel did not know. Worshipping Jesus breaks the first commandment ( "You shall have no other gods before Me). My opponent will try to prove that One does not mean one. That one can mean more than one, but with all those verses, it is clear that G-d is alone and G-d is the only one.

I will wait for my opponent answer and will explain why Gen 1:26-27 and the like don't mean that one is a plural unity.

Thank you
Briannj17

Con

Alright, I accept and am excited to share my belief as well as the belief of Christians throughout the world.

Just to clarify, the Trinity is the Christian doctrine that the Godhead consists of three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, who are One God. http://www.godandscience.org...

The proof for the three in one is found repeatedly in the bible. My burden of proof is to show how each member of the Godhead shows attributes of God. Number one God the Father.

It is rarely disputed that the father represents God. http://biblia.com...
http://biblia.com...
http://biblia.com...
http://biblia.com...

Next God the Son. Colossians 1:13-27 http://biblia.com...

Jesus is recognized as both Yahweh"and"Elohim in the prophecy in"Isaiah 40:3: "Prepare the way of the"Lord"[Yahweh]; make straight in the desert a highway for our God [Elohim]." This verse was written in reference to John the Baptist preparing for the coming of Christ (as confirmed in"John 1:23). The angel of the Lord is referred to as the Lord in scripture http://biblia.com.... While God says there is one God. Therefore God must be a Trinity according to scripture.

However a Trinity wouldn't be without the Holy Spirit. The next verses in Scripture refer to the Holy Spirit to be of God.
http://biblia.com...
http://biblia.com...
And multitudes of text. http://www.godandscience.org...

In conclusion...

It is my belief that God is represented in the form of three individuals. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. As you can see scripture verifies it. I look forward to my opponents response.
Debate Round No. 1
CapAhab

Pro

I would have to agree that the Father represents G-d comforting His people Israel.

"Next God the Son. " Nowhere Jesus called himself god the son. He called himself the son of G-d.

I would have to say that Isaiah 40 has nothing to do with Jesus.

Comfort, comfort my people,
says your God.

This talks about Israel, not the gentile nations.

2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,
and proclaim to her
that her hard service has been completed,
that her sin has been paid for,
that she has received from the Lord"s hand
double for all her sins.

Israel received the double of the punishment for her sins. This was done by the 2 exiles and the instruments of the L-rd (Nebuchadnezzar et al) who were sent by G-d for the inequities of Israel when they worshipped different gods.

3 A voice of one calling:
"In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lord[a];
make straight in the desert
a highway for our God.[b]
4 Every valley shall be raised up,
every mountain and hill made low;
the rough ground shall become level,
the rugged places a plain.
5 And the glory of the Lord will be revealed,
and all people will see it together.

If it would have been Jesus, then this does not fit. All people did not see the glory of the L-rd. Less than 100 believe Jesus and most Israelites were still in exile.

For the mouth of the Lord has spoken."
6 A voice says, "Cry out."
And I said, "What shall I cry?"
"All people are like grass,
and all their faithfulness is like the flowers of the field.
7 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
because the breath of the Lord blows on them.
Surely the people are grass.
8 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God endures forever."
9 You who bring good news to Zion,
go up on a high mountain.
You who bring good news to Jerusalem,[c]

Jesus was actually a bad news for Jerusalem. Because Israel refused Jesus, Jerusalem was destroyed (as per Christian doctrines)

lift up your voice with a shout,
lift it up, do not be afraid;
say to the towns of Judah,
"Here is your God!"
10 See, the Sovereign Lord comes with power,
and he rules with a mighty arm.

Jesus never ruled over Israel.

See, his reward is with him,
and his recompense accompanies him.
11 He tends his flock like a shepherd:
He gathers the lambs in his arms
and carries them close to his heart;
he gently leads those that have young.

But Israel, as per Jesus went to the slaughter...

The whole Isaiah 40 has not happened yet. This talks literally about G-d.

The angel of the Lord is referred to as the Lord in scripture.
The word "The" and the word "an" work the same way than "Ha" and "" in Hebrew. The word Angel is properly translated as "messenger". So "The angel" would be a specific messenger from the L-rd. The word "angel" would be any messenger from the L-rd. Unfortunately, Christians added the "the" when a messenger (angel) is speaking in G-d's name.

For example Genesis 16:7 וַֽיִּמְצָאָהּ מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה עַל־עֵין הַמַּיִם בַּמִּדְבָּר עַל־הָעַיִן
מַלְאַךְ Angel - Messenger
הַ The

And The Angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
It should be translated as "And a messenger of the LORD found her by a fountain"
If my opponent would look at almost all the times when there is "The angel", the word הַ is missing. Furthermore, an angel is a messenger, and as such speak in the name of G-d. That's why the messenger of the L-rd say "I am the G-d of your Father..." It would be like a messenger of the queen say "I, the queen Elizabeth 2 proclaim...". Nobody in his right mind would think that this messenger is Elizabeth 2!

Finally, the Holy Spirit, in the Hebrew Bible is the Spirit of G-d. His Spirit is Himself. He is not a "third" person.
Briannj17

Con

Interesting round you posted. Now let's negate.

"Nowhere Jesus called himself God the Son"
No but in the bible Jesus called himself God. God said it too.

You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
https://www.biblegateway.com...;

In this text God is talking about Jesus. Another one...

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
https://www.biblegateway.com...;

This is one where Jesus calls himself God. Tis most compelling to me.

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
https://www.biblegateway.com...;

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
https://www.biblegateway.com...;

I and My Father are one."
https://www.biblegateway.com...;

Quite a logical reason for a trinity in these texts isn't there?

You admitted to the father being a part of the trinity so there is no use for me talking about that, Now I will talk of the spirit which you say is God which goes along with the trinity theory.

"Finally, the Holy Spirit, in the Hebrew Bible is the Spirit of G-d. His Spirit is Himself. He is not a "third" person."

Yes the Spirit is God however the Spirit is different then the Father and the Son.

Here I will show that the three are different and that the father is not the spirit.

How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!i
http://biblia.com...

The three are separated throughout the bible.

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. http://www.christiananswers.net...

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
http://www.christiananswers.net...

Therefore it is clear from scripture that the Spirit the Father and the Son are three different entities of God.

In conclusion....

It is my belief that the triunity of God is clear from scripture. Multiple time we see the three described in three different persons as the doctrine of the trinity claims. https://www.google.ca...
It is therefore true that the three are representative of God. I look forward to my opponents response.
Debate Round No. 2
CapAhab

Pro

You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant (ISRAEL) whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.

In this passage, Israel is the servant, not Jesus.

But you, Israel, my servant, Isaiah 41:8
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen! Isaiah 44:1
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me. 44:21
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me. 45:4
"The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!" 48:20
And he said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified." 49:3

Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.

Exaclty, And there was no foreign god (AKA Jesus) with him. (Deut 32)

Isaiah 9 talks about Ezekiah. Look at verse 11: "Therefore the Lord shall set up The adversaries of Rezin against him,"

Rezin is the same king spoken in Isaiah 7. The whole Isaiah 7,8,9 are related together and have nothing to do with Jesus.

To prove the point, look at Jeremiah 33:16 ""In those days Judah shall be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she shall be called: the LORD is our righteousness."

Jerusalem is actually god? No, people, places and even wells are call by the name of G-d. It does not mean that those people are god.

The name Ezekiah means "God is my strength." Thus it is a play on word. Furthermore, Jesus never had any government on his shoulder (let's then wait until he comes back!)

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
This is from the new testament, thus irrelevant for the debate.
I would like to point out that "I AM" is a wrong translation of Exodus 3
God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" http://www.chabad.org...

"Here I will show that the three are different and that the father is not the spirit."
Not per the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament)

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me
This talks about Isaiah. There is no reason to believe otherwise. Look at the previous verse : ""I have said it: I am calling Cyrus! I will send him on this errand and will help him succeed."

This talk about G-d calling Cyrus.
And after it talks about the people leaving Babbylon...
Leave Babylon, flee from the Babylonians! Announce this with shouts of joy and proclaim it. Send it out to the ends of the earth; say, "The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob."

"now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me" is a better translation. But again I do not see a different person of the trinity there.

My opponent could not find any Bible Verse from the HEBREW Bible that proves his point. Only allusion on this verse "now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me". But that would not be enough to build a theory. Also, my opponent uses the New Testament, a source that I mention would not be authoritative for this debate.

Thus my arguments stand, G-d is ONE has he said HE is, Not a trinity!
Briannj17

Con

Jesus is the new Israel!
http://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org...
"Jesus is the true Israel, and the church becomes the Israel of God as it unites to True Israel. The same is true for ethnic Israel, whom God has not abandoned. But their only hope is to be united with Jesus, the ultimate suffering servant."

"The mystical name Israel literally means 'Prince of God'" (University of Cambridge Hebrew Professor Samuel Lee)
Exodus 4:22 "Israel is my son, even my firstborn"

Prophecy:
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Fulfillment:
Luke 2;11,14 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Prophecy:
Isaiah 714 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.(with us is God)

Fulfillment:
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Prophecy:
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Fulfillment:
Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Prophecy:
Isaiah 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

Fulfillment:
John 11 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 The same was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and
that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Prophecy:
Psalm 102:24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a
vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Fulfillment:
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Prophecy:
Hosea 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Fulfillment:
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Prophecy:
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Fulfillment:
2 Corinthians 510 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 117 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints .Revelation 2212 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

And many others which I believe you would rather save for another debate.
http://www.differentspirit.org...
http://www.preteristarchive.com...

I also have no idea why you aren't letting me use the New Testament. For it is written, Psalms 12:6
... the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times.
Psalms 119:160
All Your words are true; all Your righteous laws are eternal.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God- breathed ...
http://www.differentspirit.org...

Therefore I find it repulsive that you only ask for the old testament since it is clear that it is needed to show the prophecies fulfilled through Jesus.

Now onto the spirit...
Genesis 6:3
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not struggle with humans forever, because they are flesh and blood. They will live 120 years."
Here the Lord (God) Refers to the spirit as different from himself. If God was the spirit, why not say "I" instead of "My spirit"?

Also we see in Genesis 1:2 "The spirit OF God hovered over the water." http://qbible.com...
This again referring the spirit as not the Father but the spirit as per the trinity.

Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the almighty hath given me life."http://qbible.com...

Spirit of God, Not just plain God but the spirit of the LORD. This shows that The spirit of God is different than God.

I will save future verses on the spirit for later if you dare rebut them.

In Conclusion...
My opponent has yet to show solid evidence that There does not exist a trinity while There is proper evidence supporting such. Actually the title contradicts itself. "God is one...not a trinity.." While the trinity makes the claim that...

"Defines God as three consubstantial persons, expressions, or hypostases: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".In this context, a "nature" is what one is, while a "person" is who one is." https://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 3
CapAhab

Pro

Isaiah 9:6
The whole passage is in the past tense:
יֻלַּד

Sons were also born יֻלַּד to Shem, whose older brother was Japheth; Shem was the ancestor of all the sons of Eber.

Yet again there was war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; and he also was born יֻלַּד to the giant.

And unto Eber were born יֻלַּד two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother's name was Joktan.

Read in context, this passage has nothing to do with Jesus. Look at Rezin in verse 10!

Isaiah 714

4 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[c] a sign: The virgin[d] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[e] will call him Immanuel.[f] 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Before That child from that (THE) specific women (not virgin) grows old, the two Kings (Syria and Israel) will be laid waste.

Sorry and what kind of sign for Ahab would that be. Behold! a child will be born in 700 years !

Isaiah 40 and Psalm 102.
Those are not prophecies.

Timothy 3:16
New Testament is irrelevant for this debate.

Hosea 1:7
God will save them, as it is written, some trust in horses, others in chariots but we will trust in the Name of the L-rd! (not Jesus)

I also have no idea why you aren't letting me use the New Testament. For it is written, Psalms 12:6
... the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times.

This is the reason. To determine if the NT is inspires, you need to make sure it does not contradict the Hebrew Bible. If it contradict the Hebrew Bible, then it is not inspired. Jesus claimed to be god and it would be easy to prove from the New Testament. Nevertheless, if the new testament is not inspired, using it would be wrong.

For example, if you do a debate with a mormon, if you allow to have his book as inspired, then he will show how right he is according to his book, even if it is not found in the Bible.

"the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times."
What words? The Hebrew Bible, the Catholic Bible, the Protestant, the book of mormons?

The Hebrew Bible is the one they all agree. If the other contradict that one, then it is not inspired.

Genesis 6:3
No, it says "My Spirit", the word "My" implies it is His Spirit
If you say to me "Me head hearts". I will not imaging a second person's head!

Job 33:4
Well, if I say "Your mind invented this machine" Your mind must be someone else than you....

My opponent will have to prove reasonably that G-d is a trinity
I don't think you can disprove the trinity. Every time the word "YVHV" appears, the trinitarian will convert it to "a group of three gods (Jesus/HS/father)" in their head.

Let's look at the Shema

Listen, Israel: The group of three gods (Jesus/HS/father) our God, the group of three gods (Jesus/HS/father) is One.

Even it it makes no sense, you cannot always disprove those non-sense.

Common sense is not that common.
Briannj17

Con

Alrighty on quite the limit this round. However I will argue your points as best I can in this time.

Firstly you agreed with the trinity as your last point! The group of three God's is one! This is the doctrine of the trinity! Therefore it makes sense that the trinitybis true! Are you conceding to this than? The doctrine of the Trinity is Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy spirit is God. All one God! However Jesus is not the Father nor is he the Holy spirit. The father is not Jesus nor is he the Holy Spirit. The Holy spirit is not Jesus nor is he the Father. This is the doctrine of the Trinity which you shown as your argument.

Next my claim of Jesus being the new Israel went unrebutted. This an important point that I'd like my opponent to research on.

In conclusion...
I am currently on my cellphone and have bad service so I didn't rebut every thing. However in the following I will rebut everything properly. It is still my belief (and apparently my opponents belief) that the trinity is a sound doctrine. I look forward to my opponents response.
Debate Round No. 4
CapAhab

Pro

"Firstly you agreed with the trinity as your last point! "
No, you can put the doctrine of the trinity in any Bible Verse where it says the L-rd. And say that the L-rd means godhead. But that is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Bible. G-d is one, and doing what the trinitarian do and replacing G-d with (a group of three gods) is not biblical and heretic.

Next my claim of Jesus being the new Israel went unrebutted.
This is irrelevant to this topic, but nowhere in the Hebrew Bible a different entity is Israel. Israel are the Jewish people and are descendant or Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They are also called Jews or Hebrews.

I still hold that the trinity is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Bible and it is a lie invented by the catholic church, because if not, worshipping Jesus would have break the First Commandment.
Briannj17

Con

Alrighty this is the last round and I'll make what I can out of it.

Yes, God is one. That is what the trinity means! Jesus claimed to be God. The Holy Spirit is God and The father is God! God is not three he is one but represented in three forms. God is God. To say that God can't be three forms is stupid since by definition God is not subject to time or space.

I showed you my sources for Jesus being the new Isreal in the old testament I expected this to be rebutted. It is not off topic for it makes my case stronger.

The trinity claims God is in three forms! Why else would god say pay homage to the Son? God is represented by three entities. This doesn't make them any higher or lower than God For they are God!

In Conclusion...
Well what you think of the trinity is not what the trinity claims. God is one. Having three forms. The Father, the son and the Holy Ghost. Interesting debate. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Ajabi 6 months ago
Ajabi
RFD

To start with I"d like to say as per the rules laid out in the first round I will ignore any passages presented as evidence from the New Testament (NT). This includes all the references from Luke or Timothy or the like. Pro has made it clear that this debate would be about the "Hebrew Bible" and because the NT references were provided as arguments in themselves I will have to disregard them.

I"ve given the debate to Pro because I believe he was the one to put up a firmer case, and had slightly better references (but neither side referenced any classical commentary or analysis). For example when the argument of Isiah is being given Con claims that the prophecy is about Jesus, but Pro rebuts that by presenting the context which explicitly talks about Israel.

Also I feel like Pro"s biblical reference to: "there was no God before me, and would be no God after me" was accepted by Con as he referenced it. Pro talked about how this means that Jesus would be a "foreign god" and thus is in contradiction to this passage.

The arguments given by Con such as Jesus saying: "I and the Father are one" are from the NT and so I can"t accept them. The best argument I got was the argument relating to Israel meaning Prince of God. However I feel that Con rebutted that well enough by showing the past tense is used, when the future tense should be the one used.

So in general I give the arguments to Pro. The referencing and editing was horrid on both sides, so I won"t give a point for that. No one broke courtesy or engaged in disruptive behaviour so that is equal. And the spelling and grammar was also fine.

Happy to clarify.
Posted by whiteflame 9 months ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: rextr05// Mod action: Removed<

3 points to Con (Arguments). Reasons for voting decision: Even tho con repeatedly violates "The new Testament cannot be used" rule put forth in the 1st, the OT sources con uses are considered as evidence by scholars other than some fringe religions, IE Jehovah Witnesses, etc. Pro consistently uses his opinion rather than explanations of verses by those scholars. Using a literal version of any book rather than the understanding of the message a work is trying to convey, is not professional & missing the theme of any book. Pro's use of the OT verses does reflect the message of what is being stated as far as the bible's message.

[*Reason for removal*] This RFD struts rather close to the line, but is insufficient. Merely explaining why certain sources matter would normally not be enough, but as the voter couches that explanation in the larger point of whether or not a given side"s argument held merit, it would be sufficient. However, it"s not sufficient because the voter fails to analyze specific arguments made by either side. Focusing only on support may tip the balance in one side"s favor, but it doesn"t make a sufficient RFD by itself.
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Posted by Briannj17 9 months ago
Briannj17
It was stressful and I'm glad its over. Your very welcome. You did well.
Posted by CapAhab 9 months ago
CapAhab
Thanks for this debate too.
Posted by CapAhab 10 months ago
CapAhab
Let's do the maths.. Father + Son + HS = three persons in one god.
Posted by CapAhab 10 months ago
CapAhab
No, trinity is three in one.
Posted by vi_spex 10 months ago
vi_spex
trinity=1
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ajabi 6 months ago
Ajabi
CapAhabBriannj17Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: rfd in comment #7