The Instigator
patriots16-0
Pro (for)
Losing
22 Points
The Contender
C4747500
Con (against)
Winning
54 Points

God is Perfect

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/13/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,684 times Debate No: 1761
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (12)
Votes (24)

 

patriots16-0

Pro

I belive that God is perfect because The bible says he is perfect

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

2 Samuel 22:31
"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.

2 Samuel 22:33
It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect.

Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
C4747500

Con

Well there are a few ways I can start here, but I suppose I'll go from the beginning.

The first is that your rationality for God being perfect is based upon statements in the Bible. However, to achieve this, one must first prove that the Bible is infallible, which you don't do.

Assuming that you will do this, I would argue that Bible is inherently imperfect as it is created by man. The standard argument in response to this is that the Bible is the word of God transcribed by man, but I would contend that any document filtered through men has the potential of being unduly influenced by the writer. This cannot be disputed unless you were to argue that man is perfect, or at the least, that the authors of the Bible are perfect.

Next, through the Bible, God upholds principles which go against the common welfare of humanity. Forgive me for not quoting specific examples from the Bible on this one, as I don't have time to do the research right now, but principles such as the degradation of women and the legitimacy of warfare and destruction (God leading the Israelites to slaughter their enemies, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.) We decry these things when they happen in modern-day society, but when they occur in the Bible, they are either ignored or praised as instances of God's glory. I don't think however, that the slaughter of populations should count as an attribute of perfection.

I would then like to ask that we assume that God truly is perfect. If this is so, one would assume that all creations that come from God would also be perfect- flaws in God's creations would reflect on God's perfection. As you quoted 'his works are perfect'

In light of this, I think we can agree on two things. First is that humanity is certainly not perfect. We can look at the traditional attributes of perfection associated with the Christian God, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence. If we continue assuming that God is perfect, and that God does have these attributes, we must then question why humanity was not given these attributes when created by God. If God were truly perfect, then God should be able to make humanity perfect as well-but we are flawed.

Then we can move to the problem of Evil. If God is perfect, i.e. omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, why does Evil exist in our world?

The fact that God is attributed with omniscience means that God knows where all evil is. The fact that he is attributed with omnipotence means that God has the power to stop evil. Lastly, the fact that God is omnibenevolent means that God has the desire to stop evil from occurring. So why is there evil in the world?

If God were truly perfect, there should be no war on Earth. Death, disease, rape, murder, famine, drought, natural disasters-would a perfect being truly allow for this?

Finally, as I brought up earlier, God even endorses these horrific acts as shown to us through the Bible. I cannot understand why a perfect being would endorse pain, suffering, and war rather than peace, harmony, and love-can you?
Debate Round No. 1
patriots16-0

Pro

There are alot of things wrong with what you are saying is one of them is if he were to stop evil from happening then as soon as you accepted my debate he would have stuck you with lightning because you are sinning as you say that God did something wrong. But God shows his COMMON GRACE to you by letting you breathe while you read this very sentance. You see it is his mercy that makes him not destroy people like Hitler and Stallen and Sadamn Hussain in an instant. But he does justify there actions by sending them into Hell. That is how people are punished that dont belive in God they go to eternal damnation. Now I think thats pretty bad so really you cant ask "So why is there evil in the world?" Because one he givse those evil people mercy and thats why there is evil in the world and 2 they will go to Hell anyways unless they repent. So he extends them mercy and if they dont except his mercy then they go to hell, Thats why there is sin in the world because God alows there to be sin in the world.

"Next, through the Bible, God upholds principles which go against the common welfare of humanity. Forgive me for not quoting specific examples from the Bible on this one, as I don't have time to do the research right now, but principles such as the degradation of women and the legitimacy of warfare and destruction (God leading the Israelites to slaughter their enemies, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.) We decry these things when they happen in modern-day society, but when they occur in the Bible, they are either ignored or praised as instances of God's glory. I don't think however, that the slaughter of populations should count as an attribute of perfection."

Im not going to let you to get away with this one, before you type your next argument I want VERSUS that tell me about the degration of women. if you can find any. Anyways, The reason why God whiped out the those nations is because they were in sin and God had a right to what he did. Sodom and Gomorrah were terrible nations full of violence doing things that even in today would be considerd terrible. And God told that City to stop the violence and the homosexualiyt and the hatred for along time. God was extending his mercy to that nation but sence they kept on rebelling eventually their city was destroyed. That is what happens when you dified God especially in the old testiment. God as the ruler of the univers had the right to wipe out that nation.

If God were truly perfect, there should be no war on Earth. Death, disease, rape, murder, famine, drought, natural disasters-would a perfect being truly allow for this?

The reason why we have war, death, disease, rape, murder, famine, drought, natural disasters. Its because Adam ate the forbidden fruit causing sin to run down from generation to generation in other words we are now all born with sin naturlly. But because Christ died on the cross it is possible for us now to be saved from that sin and the temptations of sin wil drop drumatically because of the Holy Spirit in our livse. But sence Adam ate the forbiden fruit and there is sin in the world God will still send natural diasters let evil dictators rule ect. Just because God is perfect dosent mean he is going to make our life perfect. Because there is still sin in the world
C4747500

Con

I'll start this round by pointing out your concession of the inherent flaws of the Bible. At the point where your entire argument about God's perfection is predicated on the word of the Bible, and you don't answer the fact that the Bible is indeed a creation of man, not God, you cannot support your own argument.

Secondly, you fail to provide a definition of what 'perfection' means. I provide the classical interpretation of the Christian God, namely, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, and your answers avoid taking this into account.

It is clear to me that we must first make the distinction between evil and sin to progress any further in this debate. I will define evil as being 'undesirable states of affairs' whereas sin is 'a classification of human behaviors disallowed by the Christian God'. When I refer to evil, I'm not necessarily referring to sin. While a Christian may view someone taking the Lord's name in vain as a sin, and therefore evil, the majority of non-Christians would not view this in the same way. However, an earthquake that kill 10,000 people would (by the majority of people) be viewed as evil, or undesirable.

Granted, there is a debate to be had on the definition of evil, and how different individuals/cultures define evil in different ways. However it is relatively clear that there are certain acts of both natural evil and moral (caused by humans) evil that the *majority* of human beings would classify as 'undesirable states of affairs'.

In light of this, God's mercy doesn't enter into the fact of whether or not he is perfect. However I shall take a few lines here to disprove your discussion of God's mercy as well.

We can presume for a moment that God allows for there to be evil in the world because he wants to be merciful to those who would commit evil. There are two inherent flaws in this.

1. If God is perfect, shouldn't he be able to create human beings who don't commit acts of evil? It seems rather silly to me that he would go through the trouble of imparting within some humans the desire to do evil, just so he could be merciful to them. Why not just do away with the evil impulse all together, and therefore create a world without suffering, where no person does evil to begin with?

2. A. If your reasoning behind the existence of evil is God being merciful, I ask you, where is the mercy in allowing individual people to suffer through horrendous acts of evil? Not the person committing the evil mind you, but the victims of evil.

What about an individual who is not guilty of any sin, being slowly tortured in a prison camp over a period of many years, never allowed to die, but forced to suffer unending pain at the hands of tormentors? Why would a perfect God allow this to happen?

B. What about natural evil? What is the reasoning behind a perfect God allowing for natural disasters that kill, injure, and displace thousands upon thousands of people yearly?

Your answer to both of these things is "because Adam ate the forbidden fruit". To reword this slightly, "Because a man ate an apple that God said not to, God decided to punish humanity for eternity with disasters, pain, suffering, disease, etc".

First of all, this clashes with the traditional definition of the Christian God. Secondly, it defies the concept of perfection in it's entirety. Shouldn't a perfect being have the capacity to forgive humans? It seems ridiculous to me that a perfect being would A. Cause humanity to suffer such evil, even though it had the capacity to stop said evil and B. Would put humans through the pain and suffering of eternal damnation because they broke a few rules.

Where is the logic? God is supposed to be benevolent and kind, not malicious and unforgiving. Yet this is the picture you continue to paint to us-that it is humanity's fault for all the evils in the world, and God is just giving us our due.

I reject this view in its entirety. No perfect being would engage in such an act, for the reasons you give. That being would not truly be perfect, if it had not the capacity to forgive, had not the heart to end the perpetual suffering of man.

To give an analogy-if you were walking past a dark street and saw one person beating the life out of another, and you had the power to stop them by either A. Yelling loudly to attract attention, B. Calling the police, C. engage physically with the assailant to force him/her to stop, and you chose to D. Walk away and ignore the situation, would you not be held responsible for your failure to act? Similarly, should God not be held responsible for his decision to force humanity to endure suffering, even though he has the capacity to stop it?

To return to my original point-you fail to answer the fact that the existence of a perfect God and evil is impossible. An omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God has the knowledge, desire, and power to eradicate Evil, and you fail to give a reason as to why this would not be.

Secondly, your argument is illogical. God destroyed cities, according to the Bible, because they were rife with violence and rebelled against him.

Following this logic, I would presume that God would destroy every city that is influenced by another major religion, as punishment for violating one of the commandments. In fact, I would presume that God would have eradicated the world of violence and hatred, since "God told that City to stop the violence and the homosexualiyt and the hatred for along time." However, I think we can agree that all of these things are still present in the modern day world. Why would God only choose to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, when present day cities are as bad or worse?

All of this comes back to the root point-if God is truly merciful and perfect, why does the Bible depict him as continually engaging in scenes of violence and destruction? A truly all-powerful God would have the capacity to rid the world of these things, and yet he doesn't. Why?

Lastly, I'll point out that the Bible supports the degradation of women by continually referring to God as a male, even though there is no justification to this. Language is a powerful barrier, and as your religion refers to it's supreme deity as a male instead of female, it is clearly establishing a hierarchy where males are superior. Considering there is no real way to prove God is male, why not refer to God as it?
Debate Round No. 2
patriots16-0

Pro

"1. If God is perfect, shouldn't he be able to create human beings who don't commit acts of evil? It seems rather silly to me that he would go through the trouble of imparting within some humans the desire to do evil, just so he could be merciful to them. Why not just do away with the evil impulse all together, and therefore create a world without suffering, where no person does evil to begin with?"

Just because God is perfect it doesn't mean that he is going to create someone perfect in this day of age. God does have the power to do that obviously but for his own glory and to the furtherence of his kingdom he puts sin in the world. There are many examples that are in the Bible and in real life that when God uses bad people to do good things for his kingdom. And its not just so he can show mercy to them every move you make and every move that an evil man makes is according to his plan to make a greater good. Actually if you new anything about the bible you would know that God is going to make a new heaven and earth on the last day. Where everyone will be perfect and there will be no tears of sadness and that day will be glorious. He actually did make a world where there was no evil to begin with when Adam and Eve were first made.0 dfjhgudfhgarghu
C4747500

Con

C4747500 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
patriots16-0

Pro

patriots16-0 forfeited this round.
C4747500

Con

My apologies for missing a round, I was on my way back to college and didn't have much time to be online.

"for his own glory and to the furtherence of his kingdom he puts sin in the world."

I wouldn't think that a perfect being would engage in selfish acts such as self-worship. A being that is perfect would strive to make themselves better in order to better the people around them, not induce evil in the world in order to further their own interests.

"And its not just so he can show mercy to them every move you make and every move that an evil man makes is according to his plan to make a greater good. Actually if you new anything about the bible you would know that God is going to make a new heaven and earth on the last day. Where everyone will be perfect and there will be no tears of sadness and that day will be glorious."

Your argument here relies upon the concept that evil is a prerequisite to achieving a great good, but you don't establish this with any evidence.

On the contrary I would argue that evils which exist in the world-sadism, torture, natural disasters, the death of innocents, are all proof as to why God is not perfect. A perfect being would not allow for these things to occur.

Remember that I have defined a perfect God as 'a being with the qualities of omnipotence, omnipresence, and omnibenevolence'. You have yet to show that why a being with these qualities would not

A. Have the power to stop evil (omnipotence)
B. Have the knowledge to know when and where evil is occurring (omnipresence)
C. Have the desire to stop evil (omnibenevolence)

Judging by these qualities, there should be no evil in the world. There is evil, so God cannot have all those qualities. Therefore, God is not perfect.

To sum things up:

You fail to answer the problem of Evil adequately.

You still haven't answered the fact that the Bible is written by human hands and is therefore invalid as the source of a claim of God's perfection. You offer no other evidence besides the Bible for God's perfection, and therefore concede that you have no legitimate support for this claim.

Thanks.
Debate Round No. 4
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by spinaltap 9 years ago
spinaltap
Goa -
I just had a revelation from Plagioclaise Feldspar...the god of all rocks. I know we don't have a large following yet but if you throw your support our way we will have doubled our following in 24 hrs. Better than any other religion going. What do you say?
Posted by Gao 9 years ago
Gao
mr. chaos no typos are not flaws in the bible they are the imprint of mortals
I must agree with batman on this point but a God does exsist if not christ or the buddha then some does
Posted by Doctau 9 years ago
Doctau
Exodus 21 -"Give the Israelites the following laws: If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve you for six years. In the seventh year he is to be set free without having to pay anything. If he was umarried when he became your slave, he is not to take a wife with him when he leaves; but if he was married when he became your slave, he may take his wife with him. If his master gave him a wife and she bore him sons or daughters, the woman and her children belong to the master, and the man is to leave by himself. But if the slave declares that he loves his master, his wife, and his children and does not want to be set free, then his master shall take him to the place of worship. There he is to make him stand against the door or the doorpost and put a hold through his ear. Then he will be his slave for wife.

Numbers 31:17 - So now kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse, but keep alive for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins.

Deuteronomy 20:10-As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Deuteronomy 22:28- If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Posted by C4747500 9 years ago
C4747500
I agree entirely. Sadly, many people like to force their religion on others, and thats when the problems start.
Posted by spinaltap 9 years ago
spinaltap
C4747500 -
I see your point.

I believe anyone should and can be able to believe in whatever and whomever they want....provided they do not insist on foisting those beliefs on anyone....and provided it is 100% kept out of public, government funded schools and government at large.
Posted by Undermining-Chaos 9 years ago
Undermining-Chaos
I've found typos in the bible.

Is this not a flaw?
Posted by C4747500 9 years ago
C4747500
Spinaltap, I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. My arguments were solely in context of the debate, and it was just a pretty standard explanation of the problem of evil.

Religion does have benefits, I would contend that it is people who carry religion too far that give it a negative connotation.

Scammers, the priest molestation scandal, the rejection of other religions as illegitimate are all things done by people. For the most part, some of the ideals in religion (Christianity) are good.. don't steal, don't kill, love one another, treat others as you want to be treated, live a good life.

These are values we should all live our lives by, and many do. It is only when these values are perverted by humanity that problems occur. The belief in a supreme being is not necessarily a bad thing, its the steps people go to against those who do not believe as they do that is wrong.
Posted by spinaltap 9 years ago
spinaltap
Nice job Batman. You rock.

Our world is so absolutely screwed up that if there was a God he would be considered a failure - a disgrace to all the other gods in the vast universe. But since there is no such thing as God, it's really a mute point.

It absolutely pains me that in our enlightened and scientifically advanced civilization there are still millions of people holding on the the belief of a supreme being. A self proclaimed God that says he loves you...and then demands to be followed blindly or he will send you to hell for eternal damnation, punishment and fire for breakfast. It's the biggest lie of all time. The greatest con-job of the ages. The scam of all scams. YOU"VE BEEN HAD. YOU"VE BEEN BRAINWASHED. YOU'VE BEEN RIPPED OFF BY CHILD MOLESTERS IN SATIN ROBES AND POINTY HATS. AND WORST OF ALL YOU CONTRIBUTE TO THE ELONGATION OF THE BIGGEST CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY THIS WORLD HAS EVER SEEN.
Posted by Kasemei 9 years ago
Kasemei
Can't prove God Exists. Batman wins.
Posted by Black.Nite17 9 years ago
Black.Nite17
Uhh there is no god....and i will debate anyone about this. Batman has won.
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