The Instigator
JinxannaAtheistMama
Pro (for)
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The Contender
SavedByChrist94
Con (against)
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God is a Myth

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/31/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 996 times Debate No: 31938
Debate Rounds (3)
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JinxannaAtheistMama

Pro

You want a debate? Fine.

Have you ever picked up a history book? Read an article? Done ANY studying about real history aside from the bible? If you have ever studied Roman history, or ANY history from 2000 years ago you would see that there are NO references outside of the bible that indicate that Jesus ever really existed.

Assuming you don't know-- the new testament of the bible was written WELL over 100 years after Christ supposedly died (the second time). Conversely, it was not written by any one person or group of people. Each section (Ephesians, Timothy, etc) was written by a different author at a different time with NO connections to the other chapters. Hence why there are so many contradictions. These were hand picked and put together for royalty who were making the change from "Paganism" to Christianity. It's been edited, re-edited, translated, re-written, translated, and translated some more. Like a ridiculously long game of telephone, there's simply NO way that the original meanings are still intact, or that anything in the book itself is factual.

Secondly, the story of Jesus is IDENTICAL to several others through out history. Most notably the egyptian god Horus. The following is a list of ALL of the similarities. 1. Both were conceived of a virgin.
2. Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)
3. Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary.
4. Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.
5. Both foster fathers were of royal descent.
6. Both were born in a cave (although sometimes Jesus is said to have been born in a stable).
7. Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel.
8. Horus; birth was heralded by the star Sirius (the morning star). Jesus had his birth heralded by a star in the East (the sun rises in the East).
9. Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.
10. Both births were announced by angels (this si nto the same as number 7).
11. Both had shepherds witnessing the birth.

12. Horus was visited at birth by "three solar deities" and Jesus was visited by "three wise men".
13. After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
14. To hide from Herut, the god That tells Isis, "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." To hide from Herod, an angel tells Joseph to "arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
15. When Horus came of age, he had a special ritual where hsi eye was restored. When Jesus (and other Jews) come of age, they have a special ritual called a Bar Mitzvah.
16. Both Horus and Jesus were 12 at this coming-of-age ritual.
17. Neither have any official recorded life histories between the ages of 12 and 30.
18. Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus. Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan.
19. Both were baptized at age 30.
20. Horus was baptized by Anup the Baptizer. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.
21. Both Anup and John were later beheaded.
22. Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Set. Jesus was taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Satan.
23. Both Horus and Jesus successfully resist this temptation.
24. Both have 12 disciples.
25. Both walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, and restored sight to the blind.
26. Horus "stilled the sea by his power." Jesus commanded the sea to be still by saying, "Peace, be still."
27. Horus raised his dead father (Osiris) from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. (Note the similarity in names when you say them out loud. Further, Osiris was also known as Asar, which is El-Asar in Hebrew, which is El-Asarus in Latin.)
28. Osiris was raised in the town of Anu. Lazarus was raised in Livanu (literally, "house of Anu").
29. Both gods delivered a Sermon on the Mount.
30. Both were crucified.
31. Both were crucified next to two thieves.
32. Both were buried in a tomb.
33. Horus was sent to Hell and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus was sent to Hell and came back "three days" later (although Friday night to Sunday morning is hardly three days).
34. Both had their resurrection announced by women.
35. Both are supposed to return for a 1000-year reign.
36. Horus is known as KRST, the anointed one. Jesus was known as the Christ (which means "anointed one").
37. Both Jesus and Horus have been called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, and the winnower.
38. Both are associated with the zodiac sign of Pisces (the fish).
39. Both are associated with the symbols of the fish, the beetle, the vine, and the shepherd's crook.
40. Horus was born in Anu ("the place of bread") and Jesus was born in Livlehem ("the house of bread").
41. "The infant Horus was carried out of Egypt to escape the wrath of Typhon. The infant Jesus was carried into Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod. Concerning the infant Jesus, the New Testament states the following prophecy: 'Out of Egypt have I called my son.'" (See Point 13)
42. Both were transfigured on the mount.
43. The catacombs of Rome have pictures of the infant Horus being held by his mother, not unlike the modern-day images of "Madonna and Child."
44. Noted English author C. W. King says that both Isis and Mary are called "Immaculate".
45. Horus says: "Osiris, I am your son, come to glorify your soul, and to give you even more power." And Jesus says: "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once."
46. Horus was identified with the Tau (cross).

At the same time, Mithra, Dionysus, Ra, Orion, Ishtar, and Persephony, have almost identical stories, with very similar points that I made above. The story of Jesus is not original, amazing, or moving in any way. It's a cookie cutter story, that was changed politically to have power over the people.

Furthermore, every single Christian "Holiday" or celebration is stolen from Paganism. Easter (since it's today, I felt was relevant) is based on the Pagan Fertility/Rebirth holiday called Ishtar or Ostara. Fitting perfectly into the myth of Jesus being conceived in the spring and born in the winter time-- Ideally a time of bleak darkness (being that the Earth is farthest away from the sun at that point in time). It just so happens to perfectly overlap.

If you really wish, I will be more than happy to go through and cite many more things that Christianity has stolen from other religions.

Please-- Do NOT use the bible to prove itself. Just like using science to disprove science, that is neither logical nor a valid argument in ANY arena.

I would also like to pose the question-- What is wrong with being non-religious? My family is caring, loving, thoughtful, intelligent and hilarious. We'd never go out of our way to harm anyone, and we fight for equality-- the idea that all people deserve the same rights and treatment is very important to us.

No "Loving" and "All Knowing" God would let innocent children starve and die from diseases. An all knowing god is just that-- all knowing. He would've known about Satan and stopped him before his rebellion and saved his beloved world from evil. No "loving" god would simply let his subjects suffer when he can do something about it.
SavedByChrist94

Con

1, "Have you ever picked up a history book? ANY history from 2000 years ago you would see that there are NO references outside of the bible that indicate that Jesus ever really existed."

Actually this false,

Multitude of Extra Biblical Proofs for Jesus Christ existence:

Flavius Josephus 37AD-97AD,
Pliny the Younger,

2, "Assuming you don't know-- the new testament of the bible was written WELL over 100 years after Christ supposedly died (the second time). "

Nope, that is the biggest lie in any debate of Theism,

Rylands Library Papyrus P52 Manuscript(Which contains John 18:31"33, 37"38, The Gospel of John which has The Most Christology and Clearly says Jesus Christ is God) has an approximate dating of 117 CE and 138 CE, was found in Egypt, it would have taken it 25-30 years to get The Gospel of John from Patmos and Asia Minor to Egypt, so a 87AD-107AD approximate death.

When you add to The Fact that The Gospel of John does not mention at all The Destruction of The Temple of Jerusalem in 70AD, which Factually makes it before 70AD. John's Gospel is also extremely different than the Synotics, so we have reason to suppose John copied anyone.

With The Gospel of John we have a pre-70AD date here, Jesus Christ Crucifixion was from 30-36AD, so at least The Gospel of John was written during The Apostles time.

On Paul, it is indisputable that 1 Corinthians was written in 51-55AD,

Every single book of The New Testament was written in or before 70AD, as none mention The Destruction of The Temple in Jerusalem and The Time it takes to spread The Gospel takes years.

So what you said has been refuted.

3, "Conversely, it was not written by any one person or group of people."

This makes it authentic, had it been written by one guy, we would have reasonable doubt. we have multiple witnesses giving their own experiences of the same evident with embarrassment(Criteria of Embarrassment). in court of Law even 1 witness is valid, The New Testament was written by 7-8 different men who had outspoken disagreements with the same beliefs, thereby authentic in Court of law.

"Each section (Ephesians, Timothy, etc) was written by a different author at a different time with NO connections to the other chapters. Hence why there are so many contradictions. These were hand picked and put together for royalty who were making the change from "Paganism" to Christianity. It's been edited, re-edited, translated, re-written, translated, and translated some more. Like a ridiculously long game of telephone, there's simply NO way that the original meanings are still intact, or that anything in the book itself is factual."

You must prove your claim, Assertions and Opinions without backup are not valid in debate, Only Logic, Reason, Proof, Evidence, and Facts.

4, "1. Both were conceived of a virgin."

From http://thedevineevidence.com...

There are two separate birth accounts in regards to Horus (neither depict a virgin birth):
Version 1: Hathor, the motherly personification of the milky way, is said to have conceived Horus but we are told her husband, Ra, was an
Egyptian sun god. Hathor (a sky goddess) was represented by the cow whose milk brought forth the milky way. By the will of her husband Ra,
she gave birth to Horus:

"I, Hathor of Thebes, mistress of the goddesses, to grant to him a coming forth into the presence [of the god]... Hathor of Thebes, who was
incarnate in the form of a cow and a woman." Source(http://www.sacred-texts.com...) and Source(http://www.pantheon.org...)

Version 2: When we examine Isis as Horus' mother, we are told Isis was not a virgin, but the widow of Osiris. Isis practices magic to raise
Osiris from the dead so she can bear a son that would avenge his death. Isis then becomes pregnant from the sperm of her deceased
husband. Again, no virgin birth occurs:

"[Isis] made to rise up the helpless members [penis] of him whose heart was at rest, she drew from him his essence [sperm], and she made
therefrom an heir [Horus]." Source(http://www.sacred-texts.com...) and Source(http://www.pantheon.org...)

"2. Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)"

THE FATHER AND SON UNITY Critics suggest the Christian trinity was adapted from the notion of Osiris, Ra, and Horus being one god in
essence. Because Horus was born after the death of Osiris, it came to be believed he was the resurrection, or reincarnation, of Osiris:

"He avengeth thee in his name of 'Horus, the son who avenged his father." Source(http://www.sacred-texts.com...)

Throughout the centuries, the Egyptians eventually considered Osiris and Horus as one and the same. However, this son-as-the-father
comparison more closely resembles the metamorphosis of Hathor into Isis than it does the Christian trinity. We see Horus first as the son of
Ra, then being the equivalent of Ra, then Ra finally becoming just as aspect of Horus. Similar to Hathor and Isis, we simply see a merger of
one being into another. In Egyptian mythology, each god had a distinct beginning by being conceived from other gods. In Christian
theology, God and Jesus always existed as one and the same, neither having a beginning or an end. Jesus' birth did not represent His
creation- only His advent in human from. Furthermore, the father-son concept was not created by first-century Christians. Prophecies in the
Old Testament referred to the future Messiah as the Son of God up to 1,000 years before the birth of Christ. I Chronicles 17:13-14

"9. Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25."

Horus' birth was actually celebrated during the month of Khoiak,http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk... (October/November). Though some
critics claim Horus was born during the winter solstice, this shows more of a relationship to other pagan religions which considered the solstices
sacred.

2, The Bible nevers says Jesus Christ was born on December 25th, that's just a day we celebrate His birthday.

"24. Both have 12 disciples."

TWELVE DISCIPLES Superficially this similarity seems accurate until we see Horus' "disciples" were not disciples at all- they were the twelve
signs of the zodiac which became associated with Horus, a sky god. However Jesus' disciples were actual men who lived and died, whose
writings exist to this day, and whose lives are recorded by historians. Because Horus' "disciples" were merely signs of the zodiac, they never
taught his philosophy or spread his teachings. The fact that there are twelve signs of the zodiac (twelve months) as compared to Jesus' twelve
apostles is an insignificant coincidence.

"30. Both were crucified.
31. Both were crucified next to two thieves.
32. Both were buried in a tomb.
33. Horus was sent to Hell and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus was sent to Hell and came back "three days" later (although Friday night to Sunday morning is hardly three days).
34. Both had their resurrection announced by women."

CRUCIFIXION AND RESURRECTION But such a theory results in an catch 22,
apparently noticed by the Egyptians as they later altered their beliefs to fix the contradictions. In the Egyptian tale, Osiris is either
dismembered by Set in battle or sealed in a chest and drowned in the Nile. Isis then pieces Osiris' body back together and resurrects Osiris to
conceive an heir that will avenge Osiris' death (although technically Osiris is never actually resurrected as he is forbidden to return to the world
of the living). Source(http://www.sacred-texts.com...) and Source(http://www.pantheon.org...)

I reached the character limit, therefore anything I missed I will refute in the next round.(keep this on check.

In the next round you must Thoroughly refute all 4 rebuttals.
Debate Round No. 1
JinxannaAtheistMama

Pro

JinxannaAtheistMama forfeited this round.
SavedByChrist94

Con

Opponent forfeited round, no read to vote for pro.
Debate Round No. 2
JinxannaAtheistMama

Pro

JinxannaAtheistMama forfeited this round.
SavedByChrist94

Con

There you go, Opponent loses. God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) exists
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Stubborn_Intelect 1 year ago
Stubborn_Intelect
believing in god is dumb
No votes have been placed for this debate.