The Instigator
Madara_FTMFW
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
GMDebater
Con (against)
Winning
29 Points

God is a sinner and thus is flawed.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
GMDebater
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/1/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,832 times Debate No: 17361
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (13)
Votes (6)

 

Madara_FTMFW

Pro

It's pretty self explanitory. My oponent needs to state why I am wrong and then defent their position. Good luck.
GMDebater

Con

ok, sorry I was just to tempted. I contend that god is not a sinner. How? because he doesn't exist. You haven't clarified what god you are talking about!

In efforts to properly debate this, you need to
1. Define what god we are talking about
2. Prove god exist
3. Show how he sinned.
4. Show why it was a sin

By definition, god is all good; so by god's very nature, he cannot sin!
Debate Round No. 1
Madara_FTMFW

Pro

You have a good point, I have failed to specify which God I was talking about.

1. I am talking about the God from the Christian Bible.

2. I can neither prove that God does nor does not exist, as is the case of all mankind. So, that being stated, the only way we can even continue this debate is by focusing on the "facts" in the bible and not so much on his existence. One can still debate the morality of a character in a book after all.

3. In the bible, God is responsible, either directly or indirectly, for almost all of the world's genocide. He has had cities destroyed, entire nations wiped out and conquered in his name, women and children slaughtered, as well as almost obliterating the entire world population. He also allowed his armies to take from their enemies as they pleased, allowing for rape, pillaging, and further murder.
God also punished all those who dare disobey him. He sent plagues, caused famine and disease to ravage even his own chosen people.

4. The reason why these things are sinful is obvious. However, to elaborate, sin (in the bible) is described as breaking one of God's laws, which are the ten commandments.
TEN COMMANDMENTS:
1)You shall have no other gods before me.
2) You shall not make and worship false gods.
3) You shall not take the name of god in vain.
4) You shall not break the Sabbath.
5) Honor thy father and mother.
6) You shall not murder.
7) You shall not commit adultery
8) You shall not steal.
9) You shall not commit perjury.
10) You shall not covet.

By God's own words, by his own law, he is a sinner. He has broken and has made others break his commandments in his name. He is not good, in fact, even by his own definition he can be considered evil. This is evidence enough that God is flawed.
GMDebater

Con

Thank you for your quick reply. You have yet to show how G-d sinned and refute my argument that G-d, by definition, is all good and thus cannot sin. Let's take a look at the ten commandments--ESPECIALLY the one that says, "Thou shalt not kill."

The commandment is about respect for human life.

God asks us to demonstrate love and not hate towards others by not murdering. We must learn to control our tempers. Taking another person's life is not our right to decide. That judgment is reserved for God alone. That is the thrust of this Commandment. God does not allow us to choose to wilfully or deliberately take another person's life. The Sixth Commandment reminds us that God is the giver of life and He alone has the authority to take it or to grant permission to take it. God wants us to go far beyond avoiding murder. He requires that we not maliciously harm another human being in word or deed. This is why John wrote, “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him1 John 3:15. God desires that we treat even those who choose to hate us respectfully and do all within our power to live in peace and harmony with them. He wants us to be builders, not destroyers of good relationships. To accomplish this we must respect this wonderful gift of this precious possession, human life.

You do know that you can break almost any of the Laws of G-d in efforts to save a human life--INCLUDING killing. Not all killing is immoral as even you would probably admit.

Source: http://www.the-ten-commandments.org...

Remember: War=/=Murder. In fact, you were allowed to break almost any of the law of G-d to preserve a life.

Why did G-d order to kill? Good question! The fact that it is bothering you indicates a healthy soul...anyway, on to answering the question.

Let's take a look at what King Solomon has to say:

Everything has an appointed season, and there is a time for every matter under the heaven.
A time to give birth and a time to die; a time to plant and a time to uproot that which is planted.
A time to kill and a time to heal; a time to break and a time to build.
A time to weep and a time to laugh; a time of wailing and a time of dancing.
A time to cast stones and a time to gather stones; a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing.
A time to seek and a time to lose; a time to keep and a time to cast away.
A time to rend and a time to sew; a time to be silent and a time to speak.
A time to love and a time to hate; a time for war and a time for peace.

You see, there are times where war is necessary. The reason G-d ordered the genocide is because he knew that they would be trouble. You know who the number 1 enemies of Israel are today? Iran/Iraq! You know who they were back then? The same people G-d ordered to eradicate.

G-d is all-knowing as well as all-loving; therefore, sometimes he does things that make us question.

G-d is also all-just; therefore, he has to eradicate sin. G-d cannot tolerate sin. THEREFORE, it must be paid for. I hope this answers some of your questions.

Debate Round No. 2
Madara_FTMFW

Pro

Enlightening response, and timely too.

On the part about me not showing how God sinned, I did state how. I said that the bible defined sin as breaking one of God's laws (the ten commandments). God broke his own commandments, you even admitted in your rebuttal that God broke his own commandments, there's no getting around that. Whether deserving or not, justified or not, sin is sin. Just because you kill someone because they deserved it doesn't take away from the fact that you still killed. So, by HIS OWN DEFINITION HE IS A SINNER.

War =/= murder? And you are right on that one because war doesn't necessarily equal murder. However, that is only because murder implies intent/motive and premeditation, where as God's armies followed blindly and killed for no other reason than because they were told to. So God's followers were killers and God is the murderer.
And who created war? Who created sin? Who created evil? GOD DID. God IS all knowing, he knew how the events of the world would unfold yet created it anyways. God cannot be just if he created evil. God cannot be good if he created evil. Thus, God contradicts himself and must, by every definition, be flawed.

Another premise I failed to bring up before is us as human beings. God created us in his image, we are flawed, so God himself must also be flawed. Matthew 5:48 states that, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." So if God is perfect, how can all of his creations be flawed? Yet another contradiction, again supporting the only logical conclusion, which is that GOD IS A CONTRADICTION AND THEREFORE MUST BE FLAWED.
GOD'S WORDS CONTRADICT HIS ACTIONS, THUS GOD IS A CONTRADICTION AND BY HIS OWN DEFINITION AS WELL AS BY ALL LOGICAL REASONING, IS FLAWED.
GMDebater

Con

Thank you for such a timely response.

Strawman: the 10 commandments are not the only commandments. In fact, there are 613 commandments that G-d gave to Moses.

Strawman: We are created in G-d's image; therefore, he is flawed. Remember: this was BEFORE the fall. What does it mean to be created in G-d's image? The image of God refers to the immaterial part of man. It sets man apart from the animal world, fits him for the dominion God intended him to have over the earth (Genesis 1:28), and enables him to commune with his Maker. It is a likeness mentally, morally, and socially.

Mentally, man was created as a rational, volitional agent. In other words, man can reason and man can choose. This is a reflection of God’s intellect and freedom. Anytime someone invents a machine, writes a book, paints a landscape, enjoys a symphony, calculates a sum, or names a pet, he or she is proclaiming the fact that we are made in God’s image.

Morally, man was created in righteousness and perfect innocence, a reflection of God’s holiness. God saw all He had made (mankind included) and called it “very good” (Genesis 1:31). Our conscience or “moral compass” is a vestige of that original state. Whenever someone writes a law, recoils from evil, praises good behavior, or feels guilty, he is confirming the fact that we are made in God’s own image.

Socially, man was created for fellowship. This reflects God's triune nature and His love. In Eden, man’s primary relationship was with God (Genesis 3:8 implies fellowship with God), and God made the first woman because “it is not good for the man to be alone” (Genesis 2:18). Every time someone marries, makes a friend, hugs a child, or attends church, he is demonstrating the fact that we are made in the likeness of God.

Part of being made in God’s image is that Adam had the capacity to make free choices. Although he was given a righteous nature, Adam made an evil choice to rebel against his Creator. In so doing, Adam marred the image of God within himself, and he passed that damaged likeness on to all his descendants (Romans 5:12). Today, we still bear the image of God (James 3:9), but we also bear the scars of sin. Mentally, morally, socially, and physically, we show the effects of sin.

Source: http://www.gotquestions.org...

We see that it was a spiritual sense. He had the capacity to make a free choice. He was given a righteous nature; but chose to rebell against it.

I love how you continue to ignore the fact that G-d is perfect, by definition, and thus cannot sin.

War =/= murder? And you are right on that one because war doesn't necessarily equal murder. However, that is only because murder implies intent/motive and premeditation, where as God's armies followed blindly and killed for no other reason than because they were told to. So God's followers were killers and God is the murderer.
And who created war? Who created sin? Who created evil? GOD DID. God IS all knowing, he knew how the events of the world would unfold yet created it anyways. God cannot be just if he created evil. God cannot be good if he created evil. Thus, God contradicts himself and must, by every definition, be flawed.

My opponent admits that war=/=murder. What is murder? In order to be considered murder, the killing must be both premeditated and intentional. Since embryonic stem cell research results in the premeditated, intentional killing of a human being, Christian theology would consider it to be murder. This is scriptural.

http://www.godandscience.org...

"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man. (Genesis 9:6)

The verse that I gave you clearly says that there is a time to kill.

Who created evil? Good question!

. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could gen

http://www.gotquestions.org...

Thank you for this debate. Please vote con.

I have shown:
1) God did not create evil
2) Killing can be justified
3) War=/=Murder
4) What it means to be in G-d's image

Reasons for voting

Conduct: My opponent used several straw men tactics and failed to answer my question from round 1.
Grammar: Tied
Arguments: I sucessfuly shown how my opponent's arguments were flawed
Sources: I only used sources

Overall: 5-0 Con. Thank you for reading.

Debate Round No. 3
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Meech810 1 year ago
Meech810
I know this is super old, but religion has been around practically since the beginning of man, through all this time all the questions we can ask against God have been asked. They have changed religion over and over to brainwash and argue against these questions. As we move forward we started cutting things out of the Bible that are considered sins simply because we disagree with them. Many things in the Bible that are still considered sins today are ignored because we simply wish to. We pick and choose what to follow to fit our own agendas. The only reason for this is simple, we created god in our own image with all the power we ourselves wish we could have. As times change certain things make no sense. If the Bible was true it was always fit with the times no matter what. There's parts in the Bible where it talks about buying with gold and silver or shekels. A simple research of all religions can and will go a long way.
Posted by GMDebater 6 years ago
GMDebater
Ah ok...but then he has to show hownhe sinned, where he sinned, why it is a sin. If G-d exists them he is a sinner, but if G-d sinned it goes against his very naturr. Therefore, G-d cannot exist and thus cannot sin.
Posted by Contradiction 6 years ago
Contradiction
That wouldn't work. All he would have to do is phrase in the form of a conditional. Namely, "if God exists, then he is a sinner."
Posted by GMDebater 6 years ago
GMDebater
true...I have a few ideas as to what he is gonna post. However, I contend that he does not exist so I win this debate.
Posted by Contradiction 6 years ago
Contradiction
I would have just posted: "God is perfect. To sin is to fall short of a perfect action. Ergo, God cannot sin."
Posted by GMDebater 6 years ago
GMDebater
Thanks. that's exactly what you had in mind?
Posted by Contradiction 6 years ago
Contradiction
"By definition, god is all good; so by god's very nature, he cannot sin!"

That nailed it.
Posted by GMDebater 6 years ago
GMDebater
sorry, contradiction
Posted by GMDebater 6 years ago
GMDebater
as am i.
Posted by Contradiction 6 years ago
Contradiction
I'm tempted to accept this and post a devastating one liner, lol.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by Double_R 6 years ago
Double_R
Madara_FTMFWGMDebaterTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pros entire case rested on points that Con very effectively showed to be unsubstantiated.
Vote Placed by medic0506 6 years ago
medic0506
Madara_FTMFWGMDebaterTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro was unable to refute God's perfection. He can't be flawed and perfect at the same time, He can't sin and still be perfect. Source points to con.
Vote Placed by YYW 6 years ago
YYW
Madara_FTMFWGMDebaterTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: All that needs to be said, has been said. CON wins.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
Madara_FTMFWGMDebaterTied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: Con presents the standard definitional argument, Pro concedes it. 1 pt. Pro's entire case comes down to God breaking the 10 commandments which Con addresses well 2:1 Con. However Con does use a lot of verbatim quoting and it isn't obvious at times what is original and what is quoted, this should be intended or italicized. 1 pt Pro. 3:2 Con. Excellent debate and glad to see a stop to the forfeits.
Vote Placed by Gileandos 6 years ago
Gileandos
Madara_FTMFWGMDebaterTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro failed to show any evidence. GMdebater articulated the final round very well. Good Job.
Vote Placed by thett3 6 years ago
thett3
Madara_FTMFWGMDebaterTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Con actually provided sources, which gives him the sources points. And he wins the argumentation points by stating how God is, by definition, perfect and cannot sin. Pro could never properly respond to this.